Impressions of Tidal

Clipdat

joecoulson wrote: »

Drew you are very shrewd

"shrewd
Dictionary result for shrewd
/SHro͞od/
adjective
adjective: shrewd; comparative adjective: shrewder; superlative adjective: shrewdest

1.having or showing sharp powers of judgment; astute."


Yes, I agree. Plus, my name is inside it!

joecoulson

I personally feel the archaic version is better suited - piercingly cold

BlueFox

Someday I will have to try out streaming, but not yet. Between ripped CDs, and high res downloads I have more music than I need for many nonstop music sessions. Plus, the songs are at least 44/16, and downloads even better.

tophatjohnny

Had plenty of time with a free stab at Tidal and it was ok. With the massive library I have put together .. I now have what I like to call Tophattidal and it sounds a lot nicer to my ears. Setting up a list and hitting shuffle ..well that's tough....ahh not. Guess Tidal will have its place for some. Not here.

audioluvr

Just subscribed to Tidal when on vacation last month and loved their mobile app. Last night I remembered I had an account so I downloaded the desktop app and messed with it till midnight. Love the ease of navigation. Mainly used the "Similar Artists" feature to create an eclectic array of playlists in a very short time. This morning I was looking at all my CD's and thought WTF am I going to do with these things now???.

There are 4 levels of quality with membership. Normal, High, HiFi and Master. I have it on High currently.

What is everyone here using to connect their computer to their stereo? I'm currently using this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Jack-3-5mm-to-Dual-RCA-Audiophile-Audio-Cable-PC-AUX-Amplifier-Headphone/173395128134?var=472104461700

My computer has a very good quality sound card and it sounds really good this way but if anyone has any suggestions for a newbee let me know.

Rob

joecoulson

USB

rooftop59

@audioluvr

A PC is not the best source because of the noise. A used squeezebox touch is much better. If you’re going to use the pc, then as joe says run USB to an asynchronous usb dac. Tons of options. For a good entry level option try a iFi iDSD nano off eBay.

Joey_V

audioluvr wrote: »

Just subscribed to Tidal when on vacation last month and loved their mobile app. Last night I remembered I had an account so I downloaded the desktop app and messed with it till midnight. Love the ease of navigation. Mainly used the "Similar Artists" feature to create an eclectic array of playlists in a very short time. This morning I was looking at all my CD's and thought WTF am I going to do with these things now???.

There are 4 levels of quality with membership. Normal, High, HiFi and Master. I have it on High currently.

What is everyone here using to connect their computer to their stereo? I'm currently using this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Jack-3-5mm-to-Dual-RCA-Audiophile-Audio-Cable-PC-AUX-Amplifier-Headphone/173395128134?var=472104461700

My computer has a very good quality sound card and it sounds really good this way but if anyone has any suggestions for a newbee let me know.

Rob

I am using a bluesound node 2.

joecoulson

Joey. You gotta get a CXN. Your ears will thank you for streaming Tidal.

audioluvr

rooftop59 wrote: »

A PC is not the best source because of the noise

Noise?

For a good entry level option try a iFi iDSD nano off eBay.

Thanks! I'll look into it.

Joey_V wrote: »

I am using a bluesound node 2.

Cool! Thanks Joey. I'll check out one of those too!

Also I noticed the blue node is bluetooth compatible. That would be good for my laptop because it has bluetooth. No cables! Does that feature degrade quality over the iFi iDSD Nano and a cable?

rooftop59

audioluvr wrote: »

rooftop59 wrote: »

A PC is not the best source because of the noise

Noise?

For a good entry level option try a iFi iDSD nano off eBay.

Thanks! I'll look into it.

Joey_V wrote: »

I am using a bluesound node 2.

Cool! Thanks Joey. I'll check out one of those too!

The noise floor is much higher on a pc. You won’t notice the difference until you try something better. Like I said, check out the squeezebox touch on eBay for a cheaper solution...

Clipdat

Joey_V wrote: »

I am using a bluesound node 2.

In my opinion you owe it to yourself and the rest of your system to upgrade to a better streamer. The measurements on the Bluesound are mediocre:



"Bluesound specs the unit at 0.005% and measurements are actually better in both channels. Resulting SINAD though (signal over noise and distortion) is not great at just 88 dB. This is well short of the dynamic range of the CD so the statement that the unit supports high-resolution, 24-bit playback is moot. The SINAD lands in out lowest quarter as far as DACs/streamers tested"

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-bluesound-node-2i-streamer.6631/

Joey_V

Clipdat wrote: »

Joey_V wrote: »

I am using a bluesound node 2.

In my opinion you owe it to yourself and the rest of your system to upgrade to a better streamer. The measurements on the Bluesound are mediocre:



"Bluesound specs the unit at 0.005% and measurements are actually better in both channels. Resulting SINAD though (signal over noise and distortion) is not great at just 88 dB. This is well short of the dynamic range of the CD so the statement that the unit supports high-resolution, 24-bit playback is moot. The SINAD lands in out lowest quarter as far as DACs/streamers tested"

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-bluesound-node-2i-streamer.6631/

For the price I think it is adequate

Not my reference playback for digital anyway

What would you recommend for similar cost?

steveinaz

(Reference the Bluesoud Node 2i review mentioned above)

When the author of that test later tested the coax output, it measured far better; for those using the 2i as a transport only. He mentions that it's not capable of "true" 24 bit resolution....Newsflash: NO DAC on planet Earth resolves at the 24 bit level, at any cost. He later conceded that "it will measure as well as the DAC it is connected to." He also mentions that the 2i doesn't have the dynamic range of a CD...another newsflash: CD's don't have the dynamic range of the CD (redbook) standard in the real world.

I haven't bought a streamer yet, so I have no skin in the game--but I thought this review had some holes in it and lacked supporting info on how some the measurements were done. I also was surprised at some of his commentary (see above) that seems to be pretty common knowledge in the audiophile world.

I don't pretend to be smarter than the reviewer, but I ask you to read the review link and let me know what you think.

rburgess714

DSkip wrote: »

A used Aries Mini. Unfortunately most realize the value and don’t sell them anymore.

Look at this for a Demo Mini. $2,199 must be a mistake.

https://sightandsoundgallery.com/products/auralic-aries-mini-wireless-streaming-transporter-demo?variant=18483307020386&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o2&scid=scplpshopify_US_1950828167266_18483307020386&sc_intid=shopify_US_1950828167266_18483307020386&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2Kfv8ubF4AIVLCCtBh0-XQxWEAQYAiABEgL-dPD_BwE

rooftop59

rburgess714 wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

A used Aries Mini. Unfortunately most realize the value and don’t sell them anymore.

Look at this for a Demo Mini. $2,199 must be a mistake.

https://sightandsoundgallery.com/products/auralic-aries-mini-wireless-streaming-transporter-demo?variant=18483307020386&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o2&scid=scplpshopify_US_1950828167266_18483307020386&sc_intid=shopify_US_1950828167266_18483307020386&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2Kfv8ubF4AIVLCCtBh0-XQxWEAQYAiABEgL-dPD_BwE

wow. you can get a Lumin M1 for less on the same site. Yes, must be a mistake surely...

Joey_V

steveinaz wrote: »

(Reference the Bluesoud Node 2i review mentioned above)

When the author of that test later tested the coax output, it measured far better; for those using the 2i as a transport only. He mentions that it's not capable of "true" 24 bit resolution....Newsflash: NO DAC on planet Earth resolves at the 24 bit level, at any cost. He later conceded that "it will measure as well as the DAC it is connected to." He also mentions that the 2i doesn't have the dynamic range of a CD...another newsflash: CD's don't have the dynamic range of the CD (redbook) standard in the real world.

I haven't bought a streamer yet, so I have no skin in the game--but I thought this review had some holes in it and lacked supporting info on how some the measurements were done. I also was surprised at some of his commentary (see above) that seems to be pretty common knowledge in the audiophile world.

I don't pretend to be smarter than the reviewer, but I ask you to read the review link and let me know what you think.

If that’s the case, then what’s the harm of connecting the Node 2 via coax into my DAC?

steveinaz

Exactly.

Tramsparent_

I often hear about the noise floor of a PC (makes some sense) and it not being a good environment for a soundcard, etc; but honestly, I'm not hearing ANY noise.
I'm using an ASUS STX-ii Soundcard (modified with Burson Op Amps) with an i3 processor and good power supply.
I've tried digital output into a CHORD MOJO DAC and haven't heard ANY difference from the RCA outputs on the ASUS, into my Integrated.
Maybe a more expensive DAC would provide a difference but I've always thought the MOJO was half-decent and the modified STX-ii outstanding.

My 2 cents...

ZLTFUL

The problems with using a computer for a transport usually stems from moving parts...things like fans, spinning discs...they create noise.

This can be lowered substantially with solid state drives and fanless computer systems.

But then you have to factor in power supplies. Consumer computer power supplies typically are not designed with quietness in mind. They have noisy pathways that always manages to find a way into the signal.

Ideally, if you are set on using a computer as a streaming transport, you can get significant noise reduction by using a laptop with no fans and a SSD. Running on battery, you remove the power supply noise from the equation.

*But*, I have a really nice laptop with no cooling fans (an "Ultrabook" if you will) and SSDs and it still doesn't come close to sounding as good as my Nativ Vita streaming transport. And the Vita is essentially an ARM Cortex based computer but without all the "things" that cause noise in a regular computer system.

This is why things like the HiFi Berry are so popular as a streaming device for audiophiles.

Mikey081057

I use an HP Slice with an SSD. Only problem I have with it is knowing if it is on or not.

Tramsparent_

DSkip wrote: »

You aren't going to hear NOISE as an audible artifact. It's going to show itself in the smearing of your soundstage and a loss in dimensionality. A streamer is nothing more than a digital transport. It's impact on the sound may not be as critical as the DAC but it still plays an important role. This is why, even when people used them as transports only, the Aries Mini still won.

There is a reason you see high end streaming transports with no dacs. It isn't to take advantage of people but to actually elevate performance. Noise travels through a system and anything at the transport level will carry on through your system.

Thanks for the additional information.

I'm certainly not suggesting a Soundcard (mods or not) is a better way to go than a good DAC system. But as far as smearing and a loss of dimenionality, I don't feel I am losing to either of those, at all, and I'm super-happy with what I have (the main thing).
I DO however hear an understandable difference between FLAC and streaming with the latter reminding me of listening to FM- compressed and boring; convenient though.
Tidal is the best one I've heard (so far).

As for mechanical system noise, I have none. Celeron (fanless) on one of my Servers with SSDs.

The i3 system is super quiet as well with no fan noise.

I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend on a good DAC to hear any difference between it and my current Soundcard with a high-quality source.

Cheers

Tramsparent_

DSkip wrote: »

You aren't going to hear NOISE as an audible artifact. It's going to show itself in the smearing of your soundstage and a loss in dimensionality. A streamer is nothing more than a digital transport. It's impact on the sound may not be as critical as the DAC but it still plays an important role. This is why, even when people used them as transports only, the Aries Mini still won.

There is a reason you see high end streaming transports with no dacs. It isn't to take advantage of people but to actually elevate performance. Noise travels through a system and anything at the transport level will carry on through your system.

Thanks for the additional information, I appreciate your time.

I'm not suggesting a Soundcard (modified or not) is a better way to go than a good DAC. However, I do not feel I'm losing to a compromised soundstage or a loss of dimensionality (at all). But I've been surprised in this hobby before!

The SQ keeps increasing with better source materials and I'm more than satisfied with my current sound: (what really matters).

Perhaps I haven't maxed-out my system yet; and the question now might be how much would I have to spend on a good DAC to begin to hear any differences over what I have now.

Tidal is the best I've heard so far with others sounding rather boring (reminds me of FM); but the streamers are convenient which seems to be winning in the marketplace.

PS- NO mechanical noises from my system that uses a fan-less processor and SSDs.

Tramsparent_

DSkip wrote: »

You aren't going to hear NOISE as an audible artifact. It's going to show itself in the smearing of your soundstage and a loss in dimensionality. A streamer is nothing more than a digital transport. It's impact on the sound may not be as critical as the DAC but it still plays an important role. This is why, even when people used them as transports only, the Aries Mini still won.

There is a reason you see high end streaming transports with no dacs. It isn't to take advantage of people but to actually elevate performance. Noise travels through a system and anything at the transport level will carry on through your system.

Thanks for the additional information, I appreciate your time.

I'm not suggesting a Soundcard (modified or not) is a better way to go than a good DAC. However, I do not feel I'm losing to a collapsed soundstage or a loss in dimensionality (at all). But, I've been surprised in this hobby before!

The SQ keeps improving with well recorded source materials and I'm more than satisfied with my current sound; (what really matters).

Perhaps I haven't maxed-out my system yet; and the question now might be how much would I have to spend on a good DAC to begin to hear any differences over what I have now. (?)

Tidal is the best I've heard so far with others sounding rather boring (reminds me of FM); but the Streamers are convenient and that seems to be winning in the marketplace.

PS- NO mechanical noises from my system that uses a fan-less processor and SSDs.

K_M

Ive tried Spotify and Tidal and thought they both sounded better than the actual CD....at times.
....Other times, not sure, and also at times, maybe a very slight softening of the sound, but never did a truly in depth comparison.


I guess overall, easily good enough to not leave any bad impressions.

Tramsparent_

Thanks for the additional information, I appreciate your time.

I'm not suggesting a Soundcard (modified or not) is a better way to go than a good DAC. However, I do not feel I'm losing to a collapsed soundstage nor a loss in dimensionality, But, I've been surprised in this hobby before.

I'm more than satisfied with my current sound; (what really matters).

Perhaps I haven't maxed-out my system yet; and the question now might be how much would I have to spend on a good DAC to begin to hear any differences over what I have now. (?)

Tidal is the best I've heard so far with others sounding rather boring (reminds me of FM); but the streamers are convenient which seems to be winning in the marketplace.

PS- NO mechanical noises from my system that uses a fan-less processor and SSDs.

K_M

Tramsparent_ wrote: »

I often hear about the noise floor of a PC (makes some sense) and it not being a good environment for a soundcard, etc; but honestly, I'm not hearing ANY noise.
I'm using an ASUS STX-ii Soundcard (modified with Burson Op Amps) with an i3 processor and good power supply.
I've tried digital output into a CHORD MOJO DAC and haven't heard ANY difference from the RCA outputs on the ASUS, into my Integrated.
Maybe a more expensive DAC would provide a difference but I've always thought the MOJO was half-decent and the modified STX-ii outstanding.

My 2 cents...

There are so many variables to doing this, no simple one answer will apply.

We have a few computers, and even between those, one older one sounds better, but no idea why.
If anything it has more noise, and a lesser DAC, but still is more listenable.

rooftop59

Tramsparent_ wrote: »

Thanks for the additional information, I appreciate your time.

I'm not suggesting a Soundcard (modified or not) is a better way to go than a good DAC. However, I do not feel I'm losing to a collapsed soundstage nor a loss in dimensionality, But, I've been surprised in this hobby before.

I'm more than satisfied with my current sound; (what really matters).

Perhaps I haven't maxed-out my system yet; and the question now might be how much would I have to spend on a good DAC to begin to hear any differences over what I have now. (?)

Tidal is the best I've heard so far with others sounding rather boring (reminds me of FM); but the streamers are convenient which seems to be winning in the marketplace.

PS- NO mechanical noises from my system that uses a fan-less processor and SSDs.

@Dskip said that this isn't a debate about DACs, its about the streaming source. I went from an albeit cheap intel celeron computer outputting through USB to an asynchronous DAC to a bryston BDP-1 streamer (no DAC) though the same external DAC and the difference clear and immediate: a MUCH blacker background (which is the result of a lower noise floor), better separation of instruments, and just better detail. You can enjoy either one, but a good dedicated streamer does make a difference, even into the same DAC.

Grab a squeezebox touch on ebay and give it a try. Won't cost you much as you can resell it for about what you paid if you don't hear a difference...

Mikey081057

One thing for sure, and not that I want to see it, is that physical media and devices are diminishing as a product group. Improvements in SQ in streaming are happening. Will it out perform physical media someday? Maybe? Maybe not... and how much will we be willing to pay for it? Who knows...

steveinaz

I have actually preferred hard drive derived music more than a CD transport-->DAC solution for about 7yrs now. I realize this is subjective to each listener, but to me it was even more analog/natural sounding. I used a C.E.C. CD-3300 into a Benchmark DAC via digital AES/EBU cable just before transitioning to HDD-->transport-->DAC setup.