Bob Carver Corp Crimson 275 stereo tube power amplifier.

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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
    edited February 2022
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    F1nut wrote: »
    More worthless babble from a master babbler.
    gd3e6xud9fkk.png
  • daddyjt
    daddyjt Posts: 2,350
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    BlueFox wrote: »
    Does anyone have any ears on experience with the amp?

    I remember, in my youth, when my buying decisions were based on stats and specs. It’s sad when there are entire forums dedicated to stats and specs, and no mention of actual listening. Mind you I’m not defending the 275 (I don’t even care for tube amps) - just echoing the sentiment that no one is talking about how the amp actually SOUNDS…
    "Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow


    “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,180
    edited February 2022
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    I think there's been a countermelody on how the amp sounds running through all threads, including ASR's. I am sure it sounds good.
    There don't seem to be that many owners piping up, though.

    That said -- and I went through the 1970's spec wars, too, boy howdy*.
    My daily driver amplifier is a single-ended 2A3 driven by 6SL7. Right out of the RCA receiving tube manual, via talented audiophile (and musician) Joseph Esmilla. The amp's good for about 3.5 watts per channel at 10% THD, and it's safe to assume it's rolled off at both ends of the audible spectrum. It sounds sublime.

    Here's the point: NOBODY has ever tried to sell a SE 2A3 amp claiming, e.g., that some innovative design breakthroughs lead to, say, 20 watts per channel at less than 0.5% THD. And charging substantially more than "the sum of the parts" is worth, based on spurious claims of quantitative performance. If "Carver" (i.e., the company that's selling the 275s) said it's a sublime sounding, handmade, vacuum tube amp and left it at that: no harm, no foul. Heck, if they said it sounds like a 75 watt amp, and ascribed that to Carver magic... that's be OK, too. But the claims that are actually made for it are unverifiable. And that's a dangerous precedent for the industry, and one that's been set before -- ultimately resulting, in (US) federal regulations on power claims for home stereo equipment.

    THAT's the source of the aggravation with the Carver amp. No more, no less**.

    ____________
    * Cf. the, to me, ironic ad copy from Onkyo, ca. 1977:
    sggvdb5t4epu.jpg
    "You can hear the specifications" :|

    ** Well, OK: maybe that and the lack of safety grounding. My 2A3 amp is properly grounded, BTW and FWIW. :#




    Post edited by mhardy6647 on
  • daddyjt
    daddyjt Posts: 2,350
    edited February 2022
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    …THAT's the source of the aggravation with the Carver amp. No more, no less**….

    I agree that’s how it started, but 106 pages later I think there’s more ax-grinding going on, than just the published specs.

    My point was that yes, the erroneous and deceptive marketing claims are an unfortunate choice - however, those claims have little to do with the physical piece of gear in question and it’s actual sound reproduction (lest we forget that’s what it’s all about).

    Oddly, my “awakening” to the less-than relevant nature of specs came in car audio, when I swapped a “200 watt” Jensen amplifier ($150) with the 45 watt Rockford Fosgate Punch 45 ($300). The difference was profound both in sound quality and power. It took quite a bit of convincing from a buddy of mine to shell out the $300 (not a small sum in the late ‘80s) for a measly 45 watt amp. And I’m sure Rockford would have sold many more of these amps (initially at least) if they had marketed them as “200 watt” - but honesty prevailed, and the early Punch amps are now legendary.
    "Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow


    “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,911
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    FMalitz wrote: »
    Although it's rated at 75 W per channel, they all measure about 90 but produce between 130 and 140 watts on music and voice, probably, I assume, at a higher distortion of maybe 1 1/2 to 2%. Normally, it's well under 1% with a lovely profile.

    I think Franks previous job might have been writing receiver specs for the major consumer brands.
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,640
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    daddyjt wrote: »
    Oddly, my “awakening” to the less-than relevant nature of specs came in car audio, when I swapped a “200 watt” Jensen amplifier ($150) with the 45 watt Rockford Fosgate Punch 45 ($300). The difference was profound both in sound quality and power. It took quite a bit of convincing from a buddy of mine to shell out the $300 (not a small sum in the late ‘80s) for a measly 45 watt amp. And I’m sure Rockford would have sold many more of these amps (initially at least) if they had marketed them as “200 watt” - but honesty prevailed, and the early Punch amps are now legendary.

    Many of the early Punch series amps were well into the "cheater" category of car audio amps. Massively under-rated to allow them to be used in 0-50w class categories in IASCA competition since the rule at the time was based on *ratings* and not actual output. While they were "rated" at 22.5wpc, the Punch 45 was closer to 75-90+wpc with some build sheets reporting over 100wpc. Couple that with 1ohm stability (build sheets were at 4ohms) and you have WAY more power. Other amps that fell into this "cheater" class were the Orion 222 SX (rated 22.5wpc), the Orion HCCA225 (22.5wpc), the PPI ProMos 25 (25wpc), MTX MTA225, Phoenix Gold MPS2240...the list goes on. Heck, some of those cheater amps were stable into 1/2ohm loads and could put out out 2kw+ when bridged.

    Considering most cheap amps of the day were way *overrated* (Jensen, Pyramid, etc), it isn't surprising that you noticed a difference!

    Man...this bring me back to my 86 Cavalier Z24 Hatchback I had my senior year of HS with 4 of the PG MPS2240s with 2 MTX Terminator 12s in a ported box tuned to ~28hz. Won a bunch of IASCA trophies back in the day. I am surprised I am not worse off with my hearing but I also ran with a guy that had 14 15" Rockford subs in a Dodge Caravan with a bevy of Power 1000s who made people wear earplugs when demoing and got me in the habit of doing so.

    Ahhh...nostalgia...

    But I digress.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,163
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    He obviously isn't ready
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
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    If you make it all the way to 3:19 you'll hear his favorite selling point.
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,467
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    I did it! I made it all the way through! Sure I pee'd myself a little laughing so hard but it was worth it! Do I feel smarter now? No. Just the opposite but I am now the proud owner of the badge! AND I ALMOST want to buy one of these! Almost.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
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    You made it?! Holy ****. PM me your address I'll get you a subscription to your audio mag of choice.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
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    You know for someone who claims to be a poor/slow typist, Frank sure is unusually active on Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Frank-Malitz-2/answers

    Several posts every hour even! Seems like he's just so eager to flap his gums and spout off about how much he thinks he knows about every little thing. Fascinating.
  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,017
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    I have no skin in the game,but I couldn’t make it all the way thru. I keep seeing the guy that sells spray on leak fixer.
    See my profile for list of gear.
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,676
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    TEAforONE wrote: »
    I have no skin in the game,but I couldn’t make it all the way thru. I keep seeing the guy that sells spray on leak fixer.
    Don't forget the bald spot paint...
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 16,981
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    OH MY!!!! I can hold my hand on top of the tubes, and not go to the hospital. Great selling point..
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,172
    edited March 2022
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    Wow....

    https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649844049-bob-carver-raven-350-monoblocks-demo-units-as-new-10-year-warranty-including-tubes/

    Read the questions....

    Question:
    Frank what do you mean " up till this year" where you be now????
    Answer:
    The company was owned by Jordon Gerber, Bob Carver and me from 2016 until Jordan walked out about two years ago. Everything fell apart at that point. Jordan had the product built, painted and assembled and did all the quality control and we never had a defective. Bob’s wife took over a little over a year ago as Bob began to show signs of cognitive decline. Of course she knows nothing about our industry and one of our dealers convinced her that he should he’s a general manager. For six straight years we’ve never built enough product to meet my sales. This former dealer, Jim Clark Stereo, convinced Peggy, Bob’s wife, that he could build the productin his basement that we couldn’t build ourselves! This is absurd. So the two of them got together and terminated all the dealers in the world and all the distributors from Thailand to New Zealand. They were hoping to make more money. I resigned on the spot. their lawyers have already threatened me but I can give an opinion. My opinion is that they have destroyed all the work that I’ve done and the company will go out of business in the near future. That’s just an opinion and it’s entirely subjective and therefore if they come after me, they have no grounds. this is, once again in my opinion, the greatest tragedy in the world of audio in the last decade. The stuff sounded great. Bob is not to blame. He’s pushing 80 years old and has no idea this is all going on
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,057
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    Very sad news to hear about Mr. Carver.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,910
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    I'm sorry to hear about Bob's decline, if true. He is a nice guy and a legend.

    Hopefully, that's the last anyone will hear from FM.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,910
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    Saw this. No wonder he was defending the 275 at that other site.
    Jim Clark Stereo will be closing soon, as I focus entirely on the Bob Carver website and direct sales to customers.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,676
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    I'm 45min from Champaign/Urbana, I wonder where these are at? There's only a couple of good audio stors left there. Good vibes or Glenn Poors two big old time well established audio legends.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,180
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    That note reads like "we" were suspecting -- yeah, what a mess, eh?
  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 11,038
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    Wow....

    https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649844049-bob-carver-raven-350-monoblocks-demo-units-as-new-10-year-warranty-including-tubes/

    Read the questions....

    Question:
    Frank what do you mean " up till this year" where you be now????
    Answer:
    The company was owned by Jordon Gerber, Bob Carver and me from 2016 until Jordan walked out about two years ago. Everything fell apart at that point. Jordan had the product built, painted and assembled and did all the quality control and we never had a defective. Bob’s wife took over a little over a year ago as Bob began to show signs of cognitive decline. Of course she knows nothing about our industry and one of our dealers convinced her that he should he’s a general manager. For six straight years we’ve never built enough product to meet my sales. This former dealer, Jim Clark Stereo, convinced Peggy, Bob’s wife, that he could build the productin his basement that we couldn’t build ourselves! This is absurd. So the two of them got together and terminated all the dealers in the world and all the distributors from Thailand to New Zealand. They were hoping to make more money. I resigned on the spot. their lawyers have already threatened me but I can give an opinion. My opinion is that they have destroyed all the work that I’ve done and the company will go out of business in the near future. That’s just an opinion and it’s entirely subjective and therefore if they come after me, they have no grounds. this is, once again in my opinion, the greatest tragedy in the world of audio in the last decade. The stuff sounded great. Bob is not to blame. He’s pushing 80 years old and has no idea this is all going on

    Hi John.

    That statement reads like a disgruntled employee.

    Since you know Bob quite well, can you give him a call and see for yourself how well (or not) he's doing?

    I think a lot of members here met Frank in person and have neg. comments about his questionable persona and ego. The statement reads like Bob and his wife hired a Law firm to look into Frank's actions pertaining to his Tube Amp production and distribution oversight actions.

    I sure hope Bob is alright.

    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,172
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    I have already reached out. I know a bit more than what is above, but not from Bob directly, and nothing I can add save to say that yes, it would appear this is more of Frank continuing his douchebaggery...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,676
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    Frank continuing his douchebaggery...

    WOW SHOCKED, I tell you utterly SHOCKED !!
  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,590
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    Hmm, guess my "gut instinct" served me well after all :D
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
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    Has the NDA lifted so that you can tell us about your full story/experience now?
  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,590
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    Has the NDA lifted so that you can tell us about your full story/experience now?

    Getting closer it appears :#
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,467
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    Can someone shove his head under water until the bubbles stop and get this over with?
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • JimclarkatCarver
    JimclarkatCarver Posts: 5
    edited April 2022
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    Hello Polk forum,
    There is certainly a lot of misinformation out in the audio world concerning Bob Carver Company. I'm working with Bob everyday to get past the issues in these threads and assuring that the Bob Carver legacy remains healthy.

    Bob is doing well. He is working with the team everyday. My original request to Bob was to build one model of amplifier, using my local connections to aerospace manufacturing. As it turned out, I was asked to run a new company, and some individuals are not happy with the house cleaning of false perceptions, that I have done.

    Please feel free to contact me. I can only imagine what other 'opinions' could be given by those that hate me and Bobs wife. I'm not here to make friends. Our team has Bobs circuits performing remarkably well. We may well be setting the standards for tube amp performance.

    This is my response to the latest worthless information being spread.



    Hello,

    Over the last several years I've been asked if I had details about ownership of Bob Carver Company.

    Over the last 2 years a company called Glass Audio built Bob Carver products under license, in California.

    Glass Audio closed at year end 2021. Bob was not a partner in Glass audio. One unnamed person involved in Glass audio, made grandiose false claims of CEO and Co-Founder status, implying ownership and management status within the Bob Carver Company, while Glass audio management had issues effecting shipments to dealers and eventually stalled and closed completely.

    Bob has started his own company to produce and market his vacuum tube audio products, and protect his legacy.

    Bob Carver LLC is a legal entity owned 100% by Bob Carver and his wife Peggy. No investors, No partners. Bob and Peggy's company. My name is Jim Clark. I owned and operated an aerospace manufacturing company for over 20 years. My customers were names like GE Aviation, Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon. We were ISO9000/AS9100 certified. Lives were at stake. The company was sold to a larger company. I started selling Bob's amps for the fun of it, having never had a supply that could keep up with demand. For over 5 years, I could never get enough product.

    Bob has asked me to run his new company. Our team is made up of aerospace audio geeks. We are taking Bob Carver designed products to state of the art using cutting edge technology and quality control.. The new Bob Carver products conform to CE and other standards for export.

    The new Bob Carver products will be available to the huge number of Bob Carver fans around the world.

    Soon, you will see new Bob Carver products that not only sound terrific, but also set the standard for tube audio measured performance.

    Bob is at the helm and his creativity is guiding the ship forward. An on-line store is coming soon. Our store will have an interactive feature, so customers and fans can talk with Bob. Bob loves interacting with fans and our upcoming store with provide for that.

    Thanks for your time. If you have any questions please ask here, or call.

    Jim Clark
    Director of Operations
    Bob Carver Company
    (815) 985-3557.
  • JimclarkatCarver
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    Reference Preamplifier Model V12.. More info coming soon.4tautnb3zira.jpg