Bob Carver Corp Crimson 275 stereo tube power amplifier.

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,181
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    The 275 is their money maker... the Raven/Crimson amps are the real deal, and truly great amps. I always felt the 275 was a shifty-Malitz deal with Bob’s name attached.

    It does increasingly seem that way in terms of the 275.
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 569
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    Certainly hope that you've cleaned the bottom of your shoes coming back out from the sewer of that so-called science site Mr. Hardy. You should look around some time and find out how totally clueless that egomaniac is. There are long, long threads documenting all his complete utter foolishness and incompetence.

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,181
    edited January 2022
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    I am a member at ASR and spend a fair amount of time there.
    I am very well aware of the history Amir has, and I was extremely anti-ASR for a long time (do a web search & see!).
    That said, it is a very active website. there's chatter there about many, many reasonably priced products -- and there are some smart and savvy folks participating there as forum members (a number of whom do this stuff for a living).

    What I like about ASR is the level of activity on the forums there... the "old" sites are all more or less moribund, and I have no interest in social media "groups" for hifi or anything else, for that matter. :|

    This whole Carver Crimson 275 kerfuffle started at another forum, with another amplifier pro -- it didn't really fit at that forum and so the topic migrated to a more measurement friendly place. Simple as that.

    The bottom line about the amp in question is power output -- which is rather different than claimed by the manufacturer. Anyone with an oscilloscope, audio generator and a modicum of understanding could quantify that.

    I almost bought one of these amps -- I am glad I didn't. I have no doubt that it sounds fine in the real world... but I don't need another 15 wpc stereo vacuum tube amplifier; plenty good examples of those here already.

    I could've used a 75 wpc stereo amp (like a Mac MC-275), e.g., for the R200s.

    One thing I learned from all of this: The goofily named Rogue Audio Titan Atlas Magnum stereo power amp looks like it was a heck of a good buy.
    https://www.stereophile.com/content/rogue-audio-titan-atlas-magnum-power-amplifier
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,547
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    Have they actually posted measurements of the factory unit? I waded through 31 pages of banter but never seemed to find it
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,210
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    Nope not yet
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,181
    edited January 2022
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    Actually, measured performance notwithstanding -- what may be the worst thing about the amplifier's design & execution, from a practical standpoint, for a factory-built commecial product, is the use of a three-conductor IEC power jack... but with no chassis ground installed to the ground connector.


    j47bke0akcqk.png

    cropped and tweaked to show the unconnected ground on the IEC.

    wjbzz7pzetal.jpg


    The product's not UL listed, so it's not required to have the safety ground, but it's, at best, really odd to use a three-conductor power jack and not use the ground. There are two-conductor "IEC-style" power connectors that could have been used instead. Alternatively, they could have used a hard-wired (two conductor, polarized) power cord.

    On the other hand, one less opportunity for ground loops.


  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,210
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    Ahhh I didn't know there was a separate thread made. Gotta read through that now
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

    2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,181
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    It's gettin' a little ugly over there in after-the-fact banter, but, by all means, look at the data.

    The amplifier definitely wasn't very happy being tested as a Class AB audio power amplifier -- of course, that doesn't make it a priori a bad amplifier for audio use in the real world, but it does make it rather hard to verify published performance claims for it.

    It would be nice if someone like Stereophile's John Atkinson would put one on his AudioPrecision analyzer and see what happens.
    That, sadly's, probably not in the cards -- so all of this will likely end up being, as Shakespeare put it,
    a great sound and fury, signifying nothing. :|



  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,590
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    ^^ yipper on that Doc :#
  • toucanet
    toucanet Posts: 580
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    Thanks for posting the results link.
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 16,981
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    That was an interesting read, I didn't make it through all of the comments but interesting nonetheless.

    I do agree with a few over there that it would be a big disappointment if Bob truly has his name on them, that is what needs to be known, there is no way he doesn't know about this all happening, I am sure it has made it's way to him by now..
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,172
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    Bob is out of the loop... Frank Malitz is the guy in charge, and the 275 is on him.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,547
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    Love the McBeth quote @mhardy6647 ! That particular excerpt is one my favorites!
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • toucanet
    toucanet Posts: 580
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    I knew the pressure got to Jim Clark when he gave paulbottlehead a new name.

    That caught me off-guard.

    I'm almost certain that the Federal Trade Commission has received at least one call/email/snail mail about this matter.

  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,640
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    Bob is out of the loop... Frank Malitz is the guy in charge, and the 275 is on him.

    Unfortunately, it is Bob's name on the label and his reputation that is getting torched.

    That whole thread was exhausting to read. I am all about civil discourse when a product doesn't live up to the hype but man.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
  • SeleniumFalcon
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    Usually, when a product is submitted to be reviewed and it doesn't meet the specifications, the reviewer contacts the manufacturer and either another sample is sent or the original is brought back and figured out what happened. I just read a very long couple of articles in Audio magazine about how Sony sent three people to Audio's office and cooperated in a joint effort to see why the TC-355 didn't meet one specification although it aced every other one they measured. Sony ended up changing their final stage calibration process and offered to recalibrate anyone's deck in the field at no charge. Everybody benefited.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,163
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    You know, I may be off base, but from the measurements and parts quality /construction... It looks like a 100 dollar Amp in a fancy chassis
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • toucanet
    toucanet Posts: 580
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    Judging Jim Clark based on the way he handled himself in that thread, one can easily assume that if someone addresses short-comings of this product with him, he would saturate the conversation with plausible deniability.

    Although one can assume that Bob no longer has anything to do with the designing, manufacturing, sales, and/or servicing of this specific amplifier, if he was remunerated during any year the amplifier was made (assembled)/sold, and/or serviced, Bob was/is (unfortunately) involved and culpable. The sooner the company gets a handle on the matter, the better.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,172
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    toucanet wrote: »
    Judging Jim Clark based on the way he handled himself in that thread, one can easily assume that if someone addresses short-comings of this product with him, he would saturate the conversation with plausible deniability.

    Although one can assume that Bob no longer has anything to do with the designing, manufacturing, sales, and/or servicing of this specific amplifier, if he was remunerated during any year the amplifier was made (assembled)/sold, and/or serviced, Bob was/is (unfortunately) involved and culpable. The sooner the company gets a handle on the matter, the better.

    It is my understanding that Bob designed it, and got paid, then left the partnership. There were several follow-on products that were coming, but are now not happening. As far as the company goes, my impression is that the drain in being circled and the plug will soon be pulled.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,676
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    All one has to do is actually talk to or listen Frank to completely understand. After listening to him at Axpona for about 20min. with him slamming Bob from every angle you would understand COMPLETELY!!
    I had to get up and leave it was embarrassing !! Frank actually said Bob was a nobody and couldn't design anything with out him. I LOL and said a few words of wisdom as I left the room. I wasn't the only one who walked out. Utterly a HUGE narcissistic EGO that with out Frank there would be no audio world he single handedly built all audio companies.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,172
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    ^^^ borrowed the above.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • daddyjt
    daddyjt Posts: 2,350
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    toucanet wrote: »
    …I'm almost certain that the Federal Trade Commission has received at least one call/email/snail mail about this matter.

    That there is the funniest thing I’ve read this month. Can one even IMAGINE a dispute going to the FTC regarding published specifications on an audio product? Oh, the horror!
    "Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow


    “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 16,981
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    Bob is out of the loop... Frank Malitz is the guy in charge, and the 275 is on him.

    I doubt he is totally out of the loop on this, no way is his name being drugged through the mud, and he doesn’t know about it..

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,172
    edited January 2022
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    Toolfan66 wrote: »
    Bob is out of the loop... Frank Malitz is the guy in charge, and the 275 is on him.

    I doubt he is totally out of the loop on this, no way is his name being drugged through the mud, and he doesn’t know about it..

    I am sure he knows... just don't think he cares enough to get involved any more. I am certain Matt knows what has happened with his name on the box of countless soundbars, but he isn't worrying about that either.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    All one has to do is actually talk to or listen Frank to completely understand. After listening to him at Axpona for about 20min. with him slamming Bob from every angle you would understand COMPLETELY!!
    I had to get up and leave it was embarrassing !! Frank actually said Bob was a nobody and couldn't design anything with out him. I LOL and said a few words of wisdom as I left the room. I wasn't the only one who walked out. Utterly a HUGE narcissistic EGO that with out Frank there would be no audio world he single handedly built all audio companies.

    I didn't go to his room, but I saw him walking past where I was sitting in the hotel lobby at Axpona after show close one evening. He was obviously drunk and having a loud conversation with someone else. I think he may have been talking about how great he is and how his **** don't stink.

    The tone of his voice sounded incredibly arrogant and you could easily tell he was a giant [insert your favorite insult] from a mile away.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,181
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    ...
    The tone of his voice sounded incredibly arrogant and you could easily tell he was a giant [insert your favorite insult] from a mile away.

    You could use the one that Carver dealer Jim Clark used to describe the proprietor at ASR a couple of days ago.

    :(


  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,656
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    I must've missed that lol
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,181
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    Even I, troublemaker that I be, am too circumspect to post a link to the comment. :#
  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,590
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    Not me. >:)

    The guy was a wiener :D

    Seems to have calmed down over there, now they are onto house wiring reviews.