Bob Carver Corp Crimson 275 stereo tube power amplifier.

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
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    Lotsa engineers over there... they get all... engineer-y sometimes.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,022
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    My favorite conversation in the audio world starts with someone saying... "I'm an electrical engineer and..."
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    That phrase seems to come up a lot with cable deniers.
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,566
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    Two great post's!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,022
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    Yeo and the next phrase is... "I've never tried any of these products but they can't make a difference based on..."
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
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    A slide from one of my lectures for the grad school course I teach fall semesters...

    hwscbijfbhxc.png
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,796
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    The question I ask of those "engineer" types that almost always gets a no answer is, have you tried it?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • TennMan
    TennMan Posts: 1,264
    edited January 2022
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    When someone tries to impress me by telling me they are an engineer my response is usually, "Oh yeah? What kind of train do you drive?"
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,566
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    TennMan wrote: »
    When someone tries to impress me by telling me they are an engineer my response is usually, "Oh yeah? What kind of train do you drive?"

    Ooooo let me guess
    Crazy Train?
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
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    F1nut wrote: »
    The question I ask of those "engineer" types that almost always gets a no answer is, have you tried it?
    That's a big 10-4.

    That's kind of the gist of that XKCD cartoon in my lecture slide. It's one of my faves -- I have a signed copy of it up in the hifi room, in fact. :)

    https://xkcd.com/242/

    9xjo38ii34yb.png

    "Draft Saved". :p
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
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    Heck, if I went all left-brain on hifi... I wouldn't be listenin' to single ended DHT amplfication on high-sensitivity (horn) loudspeakers today. Had I not heard the aliveness of 'theatre loudspeakers' with empathetic amplification -- I'd have never believed it.

    Heh -- there's a reason that the price of a single Polk R700 loudspeaker wouldn't quite buy one a single Altec 515B woofer today. ;)
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    Not sure I get what all the hoopla is about. We all know Frank is a putz, and we all know he was Bob's partner, so what does that say about Bob ? Bob sold his interests in the company, now he enjoys his coin while his name gets dragged in the mud. Specs on the 275 were....embellished. Not the first time that has happened either. I might go as far to say though, Frank intentionally embellished to sell a product where as other companies might have done so by mistake. Either way, Bob seems to have distanced himself from the matter, because legally he has to, or he just doesn't give a hoot.

    Wouldn't be the first time an audio company went through that B.S. Who says audio can't do soap opera, lol
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  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,590
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    FWIW, as per another forum, the amp is now under engineering review.
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,566
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    oldrocker wrote: »
    FWIW, as per another forum, the amp is now under engineering review.

    by who?
  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,590
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    As per one of the members posts "post#770" saying; According to Frank, the amp is under engineering review.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,796
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    According to Frank, the amp is under engineering review.

    What a hoot!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
    edited January 2022
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    F1nut wrote: »
    According to Frank, the amp is under engineering review.

    What a hoot!

    Top.
    Men.


    https://youtu.be/Fdjf4lMmiiI

    7bneh91wmvck.png
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
    edited January 2022
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    Youse guyses may have noticed that Ralph Karsten (proprietor at Atma-Sphere) is an ASR member and has been posting quite on point, circumspect, and level-headed comments to the "Carver 275 review" thread there.

    http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/index.html
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralph-karsten-05b72578/
  • TEAforONE
    TEAforONE Posts: 1,003
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Youse guyses may have noticed that Ralph Karsten (proprietor at Atma-Sphere) is an ASR member and has been posting quite on point, circumspect, and level-headed comments to the "Carver 275 review" thread there.

    http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/index.html
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralph-karsten-05b72578/

    He mostly seems to be a pretty straight shooter. I enjoy what he posts on agon.
    See my profile for list of gear.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    A link to the post would be useful so people can follow the responses to his post.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    Thanks. Interesting responses.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • Navy_Goat
    Navy_Goat Posts: 375
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    TennMan wrote: »
    When someone tries to impress me by telling me they are an engineer my response is usually, "Oh yeah? What kind of train do you drive?"

    Reminds me of my early days in the Navy. I had one friend who claimed he would be a seal one day. My response was to ask him if he could balance a ball on his nose. We were a bunch of electronics nerds, I might have admired his ambition a bit if wasn't such a tool.
    SDA SRS 2.3tl, SDA 1C, SDA 2B (TL mod), Reserve 200
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
    edited January 2022
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    I am glad to see that Bob Carver responded to the ASR thread.
    I was disappointed, but not entirely surprised by the response he got. It's fine and expected to see skeptical replies, but not hostile ones. :(

    Here's the take home lesson for me in all of this. This amplifier's philosophy hearkens back to the 1960s and early 1970s "battle" between insensitive loudspeakers and appropriate amplification to drive them. There were at least two camps: the notion of "music power" (which included an Institute of High Fidelity specification!) and the notion of "continuous power" as ultimately expressed in the US FTC regulation. I think there is valid rationale for each perspective.

    That said, on the basis of the quantitative performance of this amplifier, I am glad I didn't buy one even at the intro. price back in (IIRC) 2018, which was $2495. Here's my reason:

    I was looking for a good 75 watt per channel amplifier that would happily drive a modern loudspeaker load, such as the ELACs I already had, or the R200s (EDIT) that I now have.

    This forum is full of admonitions about the importance of power supply grunt and the ability to deliver large amounts of current quickly in response to the demands of modern loudspeaker loads with low and complicated impedance characteristics (e.g., large phase angles at "demanding" frequencies).

    Do you think that, at the end of the day, The Carver Corp.'s "275" amplifier would perform well with either of those loudspeakers in the real world, day-in, day-out?

    I don't. For better or worse, I have plenty (!) of robust 15 watt amplifiers that I've never even tried on the ELACs or the R200s. So I am glad I didn't add another one to the stable. Mrs. H would not have been pleased! ;)

    I have really mixed feelings about how this has all played out. :(
    I think both the "community" and the "industry" have displayed themselves at their worst.
    And that benefits none of us.

    The funny thing is, as I've "said" repeatedly -- I suspect this amplifier sounds quite good in the real world and I believe it was designed quite purposefully to deliver good performance for a real "use case".
    That said, I suspect that the power of suggestion has trumped audiophile expectations when folks have employed one of these little amps with difficult loudspeakers. I further suspect that, e.g., dropping in a Mac MC-275 in place of the Carver Corp. 275, or a good 75 wpc stereo ss power amp with suitable grunt and current drive capability, would result in an audible, and probably dramatic difference.

    Sorry, that got a little more verbose than even I intended! :#
    PS I also cross posted this, in somewhat edited/altered form, to the ASR "Review" thread - in full disclosure. :p

    Post edited by mhardy6647 on
  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,185
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    It appears one of our own is now stirring the pot over there on this topic… not a huge surprise there
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,796
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    After reading the test results, numerous comments and seeing the photos I feel safe in saying the amp is not even close to what it is stated to be in performance, cosmetics and safety. Therefore IMO, it should be removed from the market and refunds given to those that previously purchased one.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,041
    edited January 2022
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    I think that "we" (Polkies, as well as the AKers and Hifihavenites who came to watch and join in, in fact) have been pretty well-behaved over there, actually.
    Better than, e.g., Jim "Bottled!ck" Clark. :/
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,432
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    ccntfsy7jjv3.png

    Sounds like something Frank would say posing as Bob. If I were Bob I would not get involved in anything a company he doesn't own is responsible for. He's probably on a sailboat somewhere enjoying his retirement anyway.
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  • stangman67
    stangman67 Posts: 2,185
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    I think that "we" (Polkies, as well as the AKers and Hifihavenites who came to watch and join in, in fact) have been pretty well-behaved over there, actually.
    Better than, e.g., Jim "Bottled!ck" Clark. :/


    I was just giving Nooshin **** for defending Carver on this one
    2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave

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