CABLE TALK??

Toolfan66

The nice thing is everyone in this thread has valid points wether you agree or disagree to some extent, and I would be willing to bet we all still respect one another...

nooshinjohn

I would be apart of these groups if I went around saying if you don't use audioquest, Kimber or Cardas your stupid mental and shouldn't be on this forum

Thank god MIT cables are still safe. Jesse would be in deep trouble.

daboyz

I have faithfully endorsed and will continue to endorse Wireworld because they aren't system dependent. They use scientific approaches paired with scopes to build a better cable. Their cables sound good in every system I've tried thus far. A specific cable from them in general might not be the best fit for your system overall, but it's going to get you close. [/quote]

I'm with Skip on the Wireworld's. Been loving mine.

steveinaz

There's certainly a good amount of snake oil out there, let common sense prevail. My personal experiences tell me that the "rule of diminishing returns" comes on pretty quick with cables. Just MY opinion. I've heard differences in some cables, though always relatively subtle; and I have had a lower model cable outperform it's big brother on occasion--for example, I found the AQ Copperhead to sound better than the Diamondback; and heard no difference between Copperhead and Sidewinder.

tonyb

I would agree on the "law of diminishing returns' thing. That might also apply to other audio gear as well, especially considering prices of new higher end gear. However one can't simply base price as the limit to ones musical enjoyment.

Cables do sound different and to what degree depends on the associated gear they are hooked up to. I've had cables where I couldn't tell much a difference between x or y cable, but in anothers system it was more apparent.

That's why the trial and error thing weighs heavily on most systems. Too many variables to make blanket statements in audio. We all don't have to agree on certain things, and it's ok, we aren't curing cancer here or anything like that.

Emlyn

I blame Monster Cable for being both a long term curse and a blessing. The curse is their marketing driven business model was a total ripoff but very successful and I think it still negatively affects the image of audio cables. Most of the cables they made were incredibly over priced for the build quality and many of them pure junk that actually diminished sound quality and damaged equipment. Companies like Audioquest, that do have solid engineering behind them, that sell cables in similar locations where Monster salesmen and marketers used to dominate are still negatively affected in the minds of many customers. The blessing was that Monster was one of the original companies to at least pursue better cable design and many others followed. Zip cord still has its place though and I still use it when the application is appropriate.

nooshinjohn

Didn’t Polk start the whole cable thing with the Cobra speaker cable?

mhardy6647

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Didn’t Polk start the whole cable thing with the Cobra speaker cable?

The Cobra Cables (didn't Polk actually buy that design from someone else?) and the Discwashers GoldEns (ahem) interconnects were among the first of the designer wires.

On the other hand, specialty disciplines (e.g., radio, and extreme high frequency circuitry like radar) required specialty wires a long time ago. Litz wire, e.g., has been around for a long time.

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

- Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NIV)

In total fairness, since hifi audio bandwidth is traditionally recognized as covering more than three orders of magnitude (i.e, at least 20 Hz to 20 kHz), it is pretty intuitive that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to good hifi circuits.

But, then again, a Collins R-390A radio receiver (much enamored of the CIA and the NSA, probably still today) covers a lot more ground, spectrally-speaking



(perhaps the best radio ever made -- wish I had one!)

mhardy6647

Havin' trouble trackin' down the genesis of CobraCables. I did come up with this:


(December 1977)

source of these scans: http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Audio-Magazine.htm
(an unbelievable resource)

mhardy6647

a-ha: August 1977

[Deleted User]

It is often said that the speaker cable from Bob Fulton, the Fulton "Gold" and Fulton "Brown" were the first examples of perfectionist speaker wires. These still sell for high dollar amounts at auction.
Bob also maintained that the length of speaker wire should be considered with respect to the low frequency capability of the speaker. He recommended that the speaker wire should be 1/2 of the wavelength of the low response of the speaker. Similar to the way radio antennas are calibrated to the radio frequency they're to receive.
For example if the speaker begins rolling off at the bass at 38Hz, the wavelength at that frequency would be 29.6' so the speaker wire would be 14.8' long to tune the wire to the capability of the speaker.

nooshinjohn

I would love to have one of those tonearms in my secret stash...

Viking64

I was never able to figure out how my Discwasher Zerostat anti-static pistol worked. There were no instructions in the package.

[Deleted User]

The Formula 4 eliminated the problem caused by mechanical bearings at the arm's pivot points which invariably cause sound degradation by having a single damped point. The damping fluid helped stabilized the erratic motion of the arm as the stylus moved up and down and from side-to-side following the uneven surface of the record. It sounded excellent when used with a high compliance cartridge such as the ADC 25.
The Zerostat has a thin piece of a piezoelectric material which is twisted when you slowly squeeze the trigger releasing ions, both positive and negatively charged, which neutralized any static charge on the record. It is important to slowly squeeze and release the trigger, if you hear a clicking sound that means it was squeezed or released too quickly. I used to do a demonstration with a sweater and balloon. First rubbing the sweater with the balloon, getting it all charged up and sticking to everything, then using the Zerostatic to un-stick the balloon.

Jimbo18

My first purchase of good speakers was from a store (Stereo West, I think) in Monterey, Ca. in 1972. A pair of used or demo KLH-5's. Nothing was ever mentioned to me about "good" cables. Seems like back then it was some kind of thin zip cord or lamp cord and that's it.

Viking64

Thanks, Ken. So, what was the little lightbulb-looking thing-a-ma-jig for?

[Deleted User]

You can use it to test the ion flow (sounds pretty Star Trek doesn't it?) by lighting the bulb from the gun. Owners weren't sure what the thing was supposed to do, so Discwasher added that to be able to show what was happening.

mhardy6647

Thanks, Ken, for weighing in on the cables and the Formula 4 arm (of which I have fond memories, by the way).

On the topic of the Zerostat...

[Deleted User]

To paraphrase Steve Miller, "Ions keep on flowin', flowin', flowin' into the future".

mhardy6647

They coulda used James Doohan in their Zerostat ads... but nooooooo...

https://media.giphy.com/media/ehId2xED1LL8s/giphy.gif

steveinaz

I loved the stylus cleaner brush that came with the Discwasher systems. I had the exact kit shown in the above photo. Ken nailed it, the Zerostat needed to be pulled slowly back, then released slowly.

mhardy6647

BTW The Zerostat's still alive and well.

https://www.needledoctor.com/Milty-Zerostat-Gun

Nerd-aside: we used Zerostats in the laboratory (particularly in the wintertime) to de-static-ize really fluffy lyophilized solids when weighing such materials on laboratory balances.

mhardy6647

steveinaz wrote: »

I loved the stylus cleaner brush that came with the Discwasher systems. I had the exact kit shown in the above photo. Ken nailed it, the Zerostat needed to be pulled slowly back, then released slowly.

Still use a Discwasher "SC-1" stylus cleaner brush (with a drop of homemade, more-or-less D4 fluid-equivalent). It's a nice, really dense brush.

mantis

steveinaz wrote: »

There's certainly a good amount of snake oil out there, let common sense prevail. My personal experiences tell me that the "rule of diminishing returns" comes on pretty quick with cables. Just MY opinion. I've heard differences in some cables, though always relatively subtle; and I have had a lower model cable outperform it's big brother on occasion--for example, I found the AQ Copperhead to sound better than the Diamondback; and heard no difference between Copperhead and Sidewinder.

Very good observation my friend. I also have come to these types of conclusions.
The Snake oil statement runs very deep in the wire world. It's a shame to as many companies come up with fancy terms and names for things that don't exist or can be proven on any level.
There is not many people on this earth who is willing to take the time and listen to hundreds of different wires, Ok maybe I have but I have an unfair advantage over most as I have access to so many lines and they are always willing to send a sample to try out.

Quality connections and cables are key but once you achieve signal transfer correctly no matter what material, no matter what the companies say you can't make the signal transfer any better. It's just a signal that needs to pass from A to B without adding or taking anything. It's a lot easier then most of us have been led to believe.

Think about all the crazy wire technology that out there. Then take some common sense and apply. Science really holds a lot of weight when you are trying to get a job done. Once I learned all this I stopped looking for the next best thing and grass greener stuff.

At the end of the day if your willing to really learn about wire and cables I can teach you. If your in a camp one way or the other I can't teach you anything.

dolbyd

I have recently upgraded all my cables (AQ HDMI/Transparent interconnects) and I have a hook up with a retailer friend.
When he showed me the discount he could get me I almost lost my lunch. 70-80% off on most cables. He said it’s the highest profit margin in the store.
I feel they are quality cables and have improved my system but ...Damn! This is not a case of you get what you pay for.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

I dunno Dan, seems to me your doing exactly what you rail against. For instance...

The real issue with high end wire is the haters actually have valid points. I will go on record to say most of high end wire is pure bull crap.

Most the haters have little to no experience with higher end cables. You yourself promote AQ cables....and if they didn't matter as you suggest, everything in your rig would be an entry level cable.


When you spent as much time researching and hanging out with actual Electrical Engineers and manufactures of wire and products like speaker and amp companies as I have, you get to learn what **** is and what real science is behind creating a proper conductor.

Speculation and opinions abound, but what your saying is those who spend a ton of time and who's actual job it is designing cables is B.S. and their experiences and knowledge mean nothing compared to yours.

This is why these threads go south because all of you can't get along without shaming each other. There are members in here who gang up on someone who doesn't drink their cool aid and then there are others who like to troll and get a raise out of said camp. Again both sides are just flat out retarded.

oK, AREN'T YOU DOING THAT RIGHT HERE ?

I would be apart of these groups if I went around saying if you don't use audioquest, Kimber or Cardas your stupid mental and shouldn't be on this forum. If you don't agree with me I should insult you personally and find ways to make you look worse then you already are. These are things I'm not interested

Uh....you have said, many times that AQ was the be all end all. If your not interested in cable discussions, there is a simple remedy.....stay the frick out of those discussions.

Sorry Dan, the hypocrisy is just blaring here.

You can take my post and interpret it any way you want my friend. I didn't suggest that wire doesn't matter. I don't know how you got that out of what I said as wire matters as much as any other component in your system. Without them you get no sound or video. This whole wire doesn't matter crap is whats old.
High end wire well look I own a lot of so called high end wire. Some think it's way to high end some think it's entry level. Thats not for me to judge or tell anyone how much to spend on what they like. I won't be buying top of the line cables from audioquest as I see no benefits. I can give tons of examples of when I have found no performance gains or so little the amount of money it takes to get to the so called next level I personally am not willing to spend. I find this to be extremely personal.

You said:
Speculation and opinions abound, but what your saying is those who spend a ton of time and who's actual job it is designing cables is B.S. and their experiences and knowledge mean nothing compared to yours.

Again I don't know how your forming your opinion. I never said peoples jobs who design wire is BS. Who do you think I learned my knowledge of wire from? People who build products from Speakers, amps, Players Video devices of all kinds, Home Automation companies. I have spent decades asking these people questions I wanted to know and what we collectively have talked about on this forum. I wanted to know the truth and for the most part I know the truth about wire and cables. I have voiced it a few times in here my findings. And from what I have learned from actual engineers who actually build the stuff we love, they have told me how much snake oil i out there and there isn't many companies who build proper conductors and more build eye candy and things people want. Nothing wrong with that as long as someone is willing to buy it. These companies would not build these cables is no one was buying them. But again that doesn't mean some of these cables are better then others that don't cost as much. There is a certain electrical point where you can't get the signal there any better of any kind of wire. I'm not interested in owning super high end cables that do absolutely nothing better in my system then the ones I already own. I probably have some cables that are over achievers and thats fine with me as I like them. You know I'm a damn wire nerd I have been for years.

Then you said:

Uh....you have said, many times that AQ was the be all end all. If your not interested in cable discussions, there is a simple remedy.....stay the frick out of those discussions.

Sorry Dan, the hypocrisy is just blaring here.[/quote]
Again you twist my words to your understanding. Thats fine and all man but I have found audioquest to build wires right from the bottom of the line to be quality and pass along the signal better then anything else on the market. Cardas and Kimber also do a fantastic job and thats it. Other companies might do a good job here and there but none of them are as consistent as these top 3. Over 20 years in the business with experience in so many brands I have seen many failures, many not able to pass along the signal at the length spec'd for a job.
I'm also not here to make you drink the water dude, I'll give out any advise anyone would like to have and if you don't like what I have to say you can just skip over my posts. We don't all have to get along man. You don't need to realize the truth either, you have your truths and that is perfectly fine. You post them all the time how you feel and I'm not going to sit here and debate your opinions my friend.
I'm cool either way man.
My comments about wire threads is when things like this start up and fingers and name calling start. I'm not interested dude.

jeremymarcinko

Although typically denied; I believe it’s always about validation at both ends of the spectrum. Both sides are looking to validate there belief, decision, experience etc. When opposition presents itself validity is threatened and an argument ensues.

F1nut

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

Although typically denied; I believe it’s always about validation at both ends of the spectrum. Both sides are looking to validate there belief, decision, experience etc. When opposition presents itself validity is threatened and an argument ensues.

Nope, it's always the "naysayers" trying to save others from themselves that causes the agruments.

jeremymarcinko

F1nut wrote: »

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

Although typically denied; I believe it’s always about validation at both ends of the spectrum. Both sides are looking to validate there belief, decision, experience etc. When opposition presents itself validity is threatened and an argument ensues.

Nope, it's always the "naysayers" trying to save others from themselves that causes the agruments.

May I present exhibit A.

F1nut

Fail.