Power Conditioner - Who's using one? Which one? Did it help your sound?

Irrenhaus

Recently got a Panamax MX5102. So far good it fixed a hum noise after replacing my old Onkyo 709 with an SC-99.

Cheers

Jetmaker737

So after a couple of months with the Furman PC here's my take: No huge differences in sound but some interesting changes. Sources respond differently. For instance my Sansui tuners clearly have more detail and separation which I'd attribute to blacker background. The Jolida CDP is the same to lesser degree. The Rega DAC doesn't have a difference that I can detect. I speculate that the DAC handled the non-conditioned power better than the old tuners or the CDP. Since I hear source-level differences I'm assuming no noticeable changes in Preamp or amp. However it's impossible to do a practical A-B comparison due to the extensive setup needed.

kharp1

Picked up a PS Audio Powe Plant 3 from Music Direct while they're offering $1000 off. It arrived yesterday and I got it in the rack today, and, wow, what a noticeable difference! Noise down to non-existent, bass tighter and more defined, vocals fuller. Top end extended. Everything much better. Will post a more focused review after I've had some more time with it and I'm not just babbling like a child on a sugar buzz.

tonyb

kharp1 wrote: »

Picked up a PS Audio Powe Plant 3 from Music Direct while they're offering $1000 off. It arrived yesterday and I got it in the rack today, and, wow, what a noticeable difference! Noise down to non-existent, bass tighter and more defined, vocals fuller. Top end extended. Everything much better. Will post a more focused review after I've had some more time with it and I'm not just babbling like a child on a sugar buzz.

Good man, she's a nice unit for sure. Congrats

BlueMDPicker

kharp1 wrote: »

Picked up a PS Audio Powe Plant 3 from Music Direct while they're offering $1000 off. It arrived yesterday and I got it in the rack today, and, wow, what a noticeable difference! Noise down to non-existent, bass tighter and more defined, vocals fuller. Top end extended. Everything much better. Will post a more focused review after I've had some more time with it and I'm not just babbling like a child on a sugar buzz.

My impressions as well. I have some fairly decent gear and still consider the Power Plant the best bang for the buck of all expenditures to date.

kharp1

I'm thinking about picking up another one while they're nearly half off.

mantis

when buying a power conditioner and surge system, it's not designed to make your system sound any better or anything like that.
What is actually does is makes it perform the way it was designed by suppling clean power and stable power so your devices all work correctly.
Surge protection in many areas is Ideal as some of us live where lightning strikes over and over.
I use APC for my needs and have tried many different brands. I have a APC S15 in my system.

mantis

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/apc-s15-battery-backup-power-conditioner#WQ7HpTHDoTdx26Q5.97

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

when buying a power conditioner and surge system, it's not designed to make your system sound any better or anything like that.
What is actually does is makes it perform the way it was designed by suppling clean power and stable power so your devices all work correctly.
.

Yes and no Dan. The removal of noise in your signal will make your system sound better. Cause and effect thing. Kinda like saying amps aren't designed to make your system sound better but to simply supply power to your speakers. Cables are designed to get the signal from point A to point B, not necessarily to make your system sound better. Which we all know that the above is inherently false when it comes to the effect it has on making your system sound better....or worse even.

There's different levels of power conditioners, voltage regulation/surge suppression. Some do a better job at it then others and by different means and the effect on your sound will also vary.

kharp1

Plus 1 on what he ^^^ said.

F1nut

Plus a million billion trillion.

kharp1

I was one of those guys that said there may be a difference in cables and such, but, you'll probably have to have outrageously expensive gear and then spend outrageously to get accessories that will make a difference. I fully expected when I made the Wireworld purchase to chalk it up to another experience that didn't pan out.

As an electrician that deals with paint robots and paint applications I'm very experienced with problems dirty line voltage can cause and I thought the premise of regenerated power sounded good, but, would it pan out in the real world application. Once again, I was pleasantly surprised.

I will agree with mantis in that theoretically the power conditioning/regeneration should allow your system to perform as originally intended. Also, as we've all learned, not all equipment is created to the same standard.

All I really know is the Power Plant was maybe the best bang for the buck improvement I've made to the system.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

when buying a power conditioner and surge system, it's not designed to make your system sound any better or anything like that.
What is actually does is makes it perform the way it was designed by suppling clean power and stable power so your devices all work correctly.
.

Yes and no Dan. The removal of noise in your signal will make your system sound better. Cause and effect thing. Kinda like saying amps aren't designed to make your system sound better but to simply supply power to your speakers. Cables are designed to get the signal from point A to point B, not necessarily to make your system sound better. Which we all know that the above is inherently false when it comes to the effect it has on making your system sound better....or worse even.

There's different levels of power conditioners, voltage regulation/surge suppression. Some do a better job at it then others and by different means and the effect on your sound will also vary.

No they don't. Your system whatever that may be can perform at a certain level. When you use a Power conditioner no matter the quality, it's job is to send clean power to your gear so it can operate at it's best. The gear's best is all it's got and your point is valid from a point of view meaning if the surge is doing harm or not filtering out all the nose or suppling the correct amount of voltage and amps required for given system to operate correctly then yes.

We sell Power centers from simple strips to multi Thousand dollar range. We carry many different brands and I can tell you that once your noise free and you have the proper voltage with no lack in amps, your system now can perform it's best.

I think people get to wrapped up in things making their systems "better". The word is loosely defined and I think thats where the disagreement comes to play.
Wires and power conditioners are support devices not make a system sound better then it already can. You are limited to the gear and their ability to reproduce sound. You can't make that better with ad on things. You can make it perform the way it was designed.
So I'll explain...
What really is going on when you think a wire makes your system sound better is the fact that the wire you had their before was hurting your sound. It was not performing at the same level as the so called better cable. Same goes with power conditioners. When you get a higher end model and you hear a difference , you're getting back what you have been missing all the time you where using the lesser quality model.
So the game we have all been playing over the decades is exactly that, giving this to get that but in the end the signal coming out of the source to the amp to the speaker needs to make it and the tools we use will alter that path some way or another. Thats what we hear.

mantis

Some of the brands we carry for power
Torus
Panamax
APC
Furman
Wattbox
Audioquest
SurgeX

Toolfan66

I have been using a Panamax M5400 for years without issues, I keep my amps plugged into the wall..

I had a Monster PC in my HT for years, and recently put in a Panamax M5400 as well...

kharp1

I replaced the 5400 with the PP3.

Toolfan66

kharp1 wrote: »

I replaced the 5400 with the PP3.

And the difference was?

[Deleted User]

he cooler

So it is >= $500 a port for an average system. This is assuming your amp(s)
are not plugged into a PP3. Couldn't you put that money in better kit and be
further ahead? (assuming you do not have a "power problem" that you are
dealing with)

kharp1

Everyone, or most everyone, is dealing with a power problem, most just aren't aware of it.

Where I am with my rig would probably require a substantial monetary increase to notice modest gains. In retrospect, I should have started with a power regenerator to make sure I had the best possible power I could have.

And the amp is plugged in to the PP. There is a non rectified/non regenerated port that is filtered for high current draws. I'm going to try plugging the amp in to a regenerated receptacle and see what happens. I, as probably most people, use very little of their amps potential. IF you're running difficult loads then you may have substantial current draw, however, with my two channel setup running non fussy loads and using a sub, I draw about 65-70 watts. That's nothing.

@Toolfan66 The difference was immediate and powerful. I gained extension on both ends, the highs were more silky and extended, the bass more extended, deep and tighter. The mids took on a sense of warmth and depth. The images were more focused and layered. Cymbal decay became textured and less smeared. Everything took on a much grander scale of realism and texture. Noise floor became non-existent.

Believe me when I say I would have loved to have been let down and returned it to Music Direct and applied the $1500 to something else. As it is, I'm seriously considering grabbing another while they're $1000 off for my second system...or for whatever I decide to use it for.

sgmsmg

I can also say that upgrading from a Pamamax 5300 to the PS Audio P5 yeilded the most noticeable improvement in my system. An added bonus was the picture on my 12 year old plasma TV improved dramatically as well. My audio gear is pretty entry level: Parasound P5/A21 and Oppo-105 for source material.

mantis

Thats the kind of results you get from poor power. The Panamax is not a bad unit, actually it's a very good unit. The PS Audio P5 is on a totally different level. It's not even fair to compare these 2. But all that aside the P5 is giving you some clean power with plenty of reserves so your system can perform at any level.
Killer piece my man.

kharp1

I wouldn't refer to the P5 and A21 as "entry level." Those are solid pieces that can hold their own.

[Deleted User]

As not a electrician, I would rather hire one to install a whole house TVSS,
make sure my legs are balanced, and run a dedicated circuit (or two) to
the "studio." (this ole house doesn't have the power to do so)

I've read on-line where people have had issues with dynamics with
the PP3. I'm guessing I wouldn't w/ the amp I have. I've tried it
directly into the wall and thru a detect and no diff.

I believe use guys and your experiences I guess.
I just don't know if I would get the same bump.

kharp1

I would agree with mantis that the Panamax is a well built piece, but, it's a conditioner and not a regenerator. I would have liked to have seen the 5 on sale, but, I'm not sure I need the 5 with what I run. Was looking at the pre owned market, and, there were a couple of 5's that I was about ready to move on until I saw the 3 about half off. I don't see me using a continuous 750 VA. I am, however, going to keep my eyes out for the 5 possibly going on sale. Wondering if they're going to discontinue the 3.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

when buying a power conditioner and surge system, it's not designed to make your system sound any better or anything like that.
What is actually does is makes it perform the way it was designed by suppling clean power and stable power so your devices all work correctly.
.

Yes and no Dan. The removal of noise in your signal will make your system sound better. Cause and effect thing. Kinda like saying amps aren't designed to make your system sound better but to simply supply power to your speakers. Cables are designed to get the signal from point A to point B, not necessarily to make your system sound better. Which we all know that the above is inherently false when it comes to the effect it has on making your system sound better....or worse even.

There's different levels of power conditioners, voltage regulation/surge suppression. Some do a better job at it then others and by different means and the effect on your sound will also vary.

No they don't. Your system whatever that may be can perform at a certain level. When you use a Power conditioner no matter the quality, it's job is to send clean power to your gear so it can operate at it's best. The gear's best is all it's got and your point is valid from a point of view meaning if the surge is doing harm or not filtering out all the nose or suppling the correct amount of voltage and amps required for given system to operate correctly then yes.

We sell Power centers from simple strips to multi Thousand dollar range. We carry many different brands and I can tell you that once your noise free and you have the proper voltage with no lack in amps, your system now can perform it's best.

I think people get to wrapped up in things making their systems "better". The word is loosely defined and I think thats where the disagreement comes to play.
Wires and power conditioners are support devices not make a system sound better then it already can. You are limited to the gear and their ability to reproduce sound. You can't make that better with ad on things. You can make it perform the way it was designed.
So I'll explain...
What really is going on when you think a wire makes your system sound better is the fact that the wire you had their before was hurting your sound. It was not performing at the same level as the so called better cable. Same goes with power conditioners. When you get a higher end model and you hear a difference , you're getting back what you have been missing all the time you where using the lesser quality model.
So the game we have all been playing over the decades is exactly that, giving this to get that but in the end the signal coming out of the source to the amp to the speaker needs to make it and the tools we use will alter that path some way or another. Thats what we hear.

I would respectfully disagree with all that. Your premise is that every product you have prior to the new one is faulty somehow. That is simply not the case. Different designs, build quality, will always alter your sound to some degree for better or worse. Has zero to do with xyz product being faulty somehow. Same with cables, they all get the signal from point A to point B, but design, metallurgy used, and other factors will color the sound and also play a part in the flow of that signal and how it interacts with the gear it's connected to. Everything in our systems color the sound, we play on that to our preferences, doesn't mean the prior cable was faulty somehow. Your premise suggests that every cable in the Audioquest line up for example is faulty somehow until you get to the top dog series.

While "better" is subjective, how do we know when our systems perform their best ? Is there a light that comes on to tell us this is as good as it gets with this system ? Obviously not, because better is subjective. Synergy between pieces is subjective, not faulty somehow. I have a hard time following your reasoning Dan.

sgmsmg

I was not faulting the Panamax at all and know they are completely different products. I always had the Panamax in my system so I never compared it to not having anything at all. The Panamax was surely beneficial but I never knew how much.

My incoming power isn't horrible either 120+/-1VAC with average 1.5%THD. The reason I upgraded to the P5 was to try to provide the cleanest power that my upgrade budget allowed. I am in complete agreement that providing cleaner power allows components to perform closer to what they were designed to do under ideal conditions.

Along the same lines I swapped out the Panamax in my HT setup for a Furman Reference 15i. Again there was a noticeable change that was expected based on the upgrade.

kharp1, I am not sure what your budget is but there is a black P5 on Audiogon right now for $2100. When I purchased mine I took advantage of the PS Audio trade in program and was able to get rid of gear to supplement the cost.

motorhead43026

Get dedicated circuit, and a PS detect and call it a day.

F1nut

Tony nails one outta the park....kissed it right on the sweet spot. Dan hit a foul ball.

kharp1

A dedicated circuit is a good idea, but, you're still getting the noise of everything else attached all the way back to the pole and beyond.

Upstatemax

You can't follow reason with the power game...

Not everyone is playing with a level field. WAY too many variables. I have to agree with Dan. Get what you NEED for clean power. If you have good, stable power you probably don't need to dump serious money into it. If you have crap power, you might have to dig deep and get something that is going to provide a lot of help.

It all boils down to what power you have and what you're willing to spend. For me, I have generally VERY stable power and I don't have the budget to throw a lot of money at power.

I'm simply not willing to throw thousands of dollars at getting minimal gains.

If I was up a couple of tax brackets, I might not care so much.

Or, If I had crappy power I would probably make it a higher priority.

I would not suggest a magnum condom for EVERYONE, get what you NEED.