Polk Signature Series Official Discussion

heiney9

Some of us also have a lower tolerance for "just decent" and higher expectations of what sounds good. That's not meant to sound snobbish at all, it comes from experiences, likes, dislikes, and ultimately what we are willing to accept at the lowest threshold and what we are looking for out of our rigs.

I have friends who are perfectly content to drive a small entry level automobile. Some of us prefer something a little sportier, plusher, quieter, larger, more driver specific traits, etc.

heiney9

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

AVRs have built in amplifiers and their amps need to be matched with compatible speakers. A 60 watt amp just may be challenged to drive very inefficient 4 Ohm speakers, that is as true for separates as it is for AVRs. One size fit all statements about separates are as false as one size fit all statements about receivers. If the front speakers are too much of a load for the AVRs amp, add a separate power amp that is compatible and able to drive those speakers.

I did say that, go back and read. I said it's NOT a one way street.

However I have a 30wpc amp that I have yet to stump or find the upper limits of. In fact it plays into a dead short. 30wpc. Has more scale and dynamics than just about everything I've heard. So really specs mean nothing. On paper this amp looks a bit anemic. It's a power house and is one of the best sounding amps I've ever put ears on.

Ratings are a very loose guide but by no means are they going to tell you anything about how something will sound or perform, nor will they allow comparison.

H9

heiney9

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

AVRs have built in amplifiers and their amps need to be matched with compatible speakers. A 60 watt amp just may be challenged to drive very inefficient 4 Ohm speakers, that is as true for separates as it is for AVRs. One size fit all statements about separates are as false as one size fit all statements about receivers. If the front speakers are too much of a load for the AVRs amp, add a separate power amp that is compatible and able to drive those speakers.

Then the compromise becomes the pre-amp section of the AVR, which is never a strong point. A separate pre in most cases will perform better (if that's what's important to you) AVR's are compromises set to a specific price point.

H9

begbie

HI guys,

Been a while. Signatures caught my eye. Looking to build a small 5.1 with the s50,s15 and debating the s35 or s30. What do some of you think of which center?

Also I saw an S15 review on youtube and the reviewer noted the glossy plastic cap is loose toward the bottom. Any owners experience this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdtccD4FUY

Starts at around the 4 minute mark.

txcoastal1

Wow interesting. Thanks for posting. Curious if that also causes in air leaks

F1nut

I've taken the front bezel piece off my S20's, so I can tell you first hand they are not easy to get off. Therefore, I suspect the guy in the video broke his trying to remove them and that's why they are loose now. Mine are not broken, sit tight and don't make the noise that his do.

Ron, there would be no air leaks from that issue he has.

msg

Alright Jesse - dish.
What'cha got in store for the S20s?
Rebuilt the crossovers yet?

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

Some of us also have a lower tolerance for "just decent" and higher expectations of what sounds good. That's not meant to sound snobbish at all, it comes from experiences, likes, dislikes, and ultimately what we are willing to accept at the lowest threshold and what we are looking for out of our rigs.

I have friends who are perfectly content to drive a small entry level automobile. Some of us prefer something a little sportier, plusher, quieter, larger, more driver specific traits, etc.

I think in many cases were are arguing "Semantics"

Read the reviews I linked to a few posts up.
They review scores of amps and receivers, but their comments I found most interesting.

heiney9

Package it however you want to justify your POV. I can assure you semantics isn't the issue.

H9

mhardy6647

This seems like a good time to mention:

1) There is no such thing as "RMS Watts" (FTC 1974 regulations on stereo output power ratings notwithstanding). AC Volts RMS, yes, but "RMS Watts", strictly speaking is an average power measurement, probably better referred to as "Continuous sine wave watts".
https://books.google.com/books?id=L38MrvScG3gC&pg=PA335&lpg=PA335&dq=RMS+watts+is+a+misnomer&source=bl&ots=L7sRwVPdFN&sig=JuZcctDSRtH9dU59sX8CBRFloCQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj12_eysM3UAhWBPT4KHTxzC8Q4ChDoAQgpMAE#v=onepage&q=RMS watts is a misnomer&f=false

2) Music (or most any other audio program material) is not a continuous sine wave (although, of course, by Fourier series any waveform may be "produced" by an appropriate combination of sine waves")

3) Loudspeakers are complex and reactive loads for an amplifier -- and the impedance "curve" of most dynamic (permanent magnet cone or dome drivers) loudspeakers is pretty -- complicated.

4) All in all, "output power" specifications - though easily measured in a reproducible way (which is an important thing, don't get me wrong!) - are pretty meaningless in the real world for listening to real music reproduction using real loudspeakers in a real acoustic environment.

The point is that it is all important: the room, the type of music (or other program material, since the focus is on multichannel A/V reproduction), the loudspeakers and the listening level. Investing lots of time listening to lots of different components in different environments -- building one's own database -- is the best way to make good choices of hardware for oneself.

3-ish watts per channel (two channels in toto) at my house, driving loudspeakers with a sensitivity of ca.102 dB SPL per 2.83 AC volts (RMS) input signal at a distance of 1 meter.

As the folks from Rolls-Royce used to say, when asked about the horsepower specification for their motorcars, "adequate".

msg

begbie wrote: »

Hi guys,
Been a while. Signatures caught my eye. Looking to build a small 5.1 with the s50,s15 and debating the s35 or s30. What do some of you think of which center?
Also I saw an S15 review on youtube and the reviewer noted the glossy plastic cap is loose toward the bottom. Any owners experience this?
Starts at around the 4 minute mark.

Begbie - I think consensus is for the S30 if you have the space, otherwise S35 if you want to have it sitting on top of a tv stand in front of your tv.

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Wow interesting. Thanks for posting. Curious if that also causes in air leaks

F1nut wrote: »

I've taken the front bezel piece off my S20's, so I can tell you first hand they are not easy to get off. Therefore, I suspect the guy in the video broke his trying to remove them and that's why they are loose now. Mine are not broken, sit tight and don't make the noise that his do.

Interesting. I just went a rapped on the bezel on the S20s I got from [needs-nick]Craig. Sure enough, there's a void on mine, both bezels, and it slaps a little, but not as bad as in that guy's review. Also no visible gaps on quick inspection. Of course I didn't go pulling on them like that guy did in his review (wtf. I kept waiting for it to snap! also, had to take a Dramamine with all the zoom play) Does take a good measure of rapping to demonstrate. I've not had any problems with rattling or vibration, though. The cabinets on these are very solid. If more came through the cabinet while rockin' I could see where it might be a problem. At some point I might try to fashion something non-destructive to take up the gap/isolate, but for now, just continuing on with burning/breaking them in.

motorhead43026

^^My S60's have no visible gaps but I can get a little slap from one area when tapping on the bottom bezel on both speakers. I going to mark it down as nature of the beast.

msg

High lounge trumpet and accompaniment sounds amazing on Signature S20s. Seems like it should be painful, but it's not at all. In fact, makes me want deeper immersion in the goodness, like you can't get enough. They seem very lively, but not harsh or edgy.

They seem really good at "space" - is this airiness?
Lushy echo and decay that's taking its time, as if on its own schedule, no rush, nowhere to be.

I've got SOMA FM's Groove Salad going while I strip the vinyl off some Monitor/RTA-11Ts.

mrloren

Now I just had to go tap on the bezel on all my Signatures... none are loose

For the AVR's. That is all I have owned. Never had a seperate amp before, A friend did let me check out his Emo when I had my 5300ES and it did make a big difference on my RTi8. He was trying to sell it to me, no cash at the time.

One thing I noticed was on my Sony flagship 5700ES @ 135X7 it had a max power input of 430 watts. My Marantz SR5010 has 630 watt input power. Gee and my Marantz sounds better why?

I am thinking of getting an amp http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marmm7025/marantz-mm7025-2-ch-x-140-watts-power-amplifier/1.html It's not the biggest badest amp out there but it would take the load off my receiver. I am shooting for Christmas time frame to get it. Also unless I find a way to get more power to my family room I a limited to a 15A circuit.

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

Package it however you want to justify your POV. I can assure you semantics isn't the issue.

H9

Was giving you an easy out.

Would be interested if you even knew what my "View" was.

F1nut

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

Package it however you want to justify your POV. I can assure you semantics isn't the issue.

H9

Was giving you an easy out.

Would be interested if you even knew what my "View" was.

Correction, you were trying to give yourself an out. It's what you do time and again otherwise known as your MO.

Gatecrasher

F1nut wrote: »

Perhaps the real question here is have you sat down and tried a few high end amps and if so, which ones? I ask for specifics because you're always so vague. You also talk in circles to avoid answering specific questions, so I'm hoping for something different this time.

I think the real question some of you guys who are so opinionated on this subject might want to consider is that while your "stereotype" of AVRs (no pun intended) is based on older equipment as Tony mentioned, you probably haven't really had the opportunity to evaluate the more modern modern AVRs. AVRs produced after 2010 are different animals than the type we grew up with.

Also, comparing high end amps to lower end (and significantly less expensive AVRs) will always help to reinforce your stereotype but that's about all it accomplishes. On the other hand one could take a modern high-end AVR and blow away a lower end far less-expensive separate amplifier, but that wouldn't really be too surprising either to most people.

Separates won't always outperform an AVR but an advantage that a separate has is that they can offer more flexibility down the road. Also separates tend to be geared more towards the higher-end while AVRs come in all flavors.

F1nut

Says the guy with an AVR from 2008.

msg

Lol, geedee, guys, you're gonna get the Internet closed by Labor Day at this rate.

Gatecrasher

F1nut wrote: »

Says the guy with an AVR from 2008.

Yeah that's right. The SC-09TX was the AVR that kind of got the ball rolling for the newer class "D" ICE-powered AVRs.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

msg

Chris Isaak's Blue Spanish Sky on the S20s at reference, no sub - makes me feel like I'm in a movie scene.

Trumpet and loungy, seedy night club jazz stuff sounds absolutely amazing to me on these speakers. Brushes on drums as well - so very comfortably detailed!

What is that when the trumpet is higher pitched? Is that when they're using a mute?

Very fun speakers. A touch fat and muddled, but haven't quite figured out what/where that's going on. It's like some low vocals are pushed up a bit, causing a bit of muddy resonance at times, but I'm just crudely set up with them right now, so take that with a grain. I'll try another day with closer attention to setup, and maybe a sub in the mix to see if it cleans up.

It's turning into one of those late - Okay, just one more... nights. I've been saying that for the past hour.

Gatecrasher

Reported.

xsmi

Well, I've got an old RX-V2090 that I'm not afraid to hook up to any pair of speakers and crank the volume. It never sounds fatiguing and has always given me a very lush sound. This receiver was released when many said that Yamaha's were bright electronics. This beast defied all of the naysayers.

msg

Beautiful experience on S20s, both of these tracks. If the S20s are any indication, I imagine S60s must absolutely kill it.

mrloren

When I have my after work unwind, I mostly use my main HT downstairs with the S60. just a fantastic speaker. If mother in law is sleeping or someone watching TV I will crank up the bedroom HT with the S20. It's a little less but darn good speakers.

Need mother in law to move out so it will be S60 all the time....

F1nut

msg wrote: »

Alright Jesse - dish.
What'cha got in store for the S20s?
Rebuilt the crossovers yet?

Don't know, they are collecting dust right now.

tonyb

Gatecrasher wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Perhaps the real question here is have you sat down and tried a few high end amps and if so, which ones? I ask for specifics because you're always so vague. You also talk in circles to avoid answering specific questions, so I'm hoping for something different this time.

I think the real question some of you guys who are so opinionated on this subject might want to consider is that while your "stereotype" of AVRs (no pun intended) is based on older equipment as Tony mentioned, you probably haven't really had the opportunity to evaluate the more modern modern AVRs. AVRs produced after 2010 are different animals than the type we grew up with.

Also, comparing high end amps to lower end (and significantly less expensive AVRs) will always help to reinforce your stereotype but that's about all it accomplishes. On the other hand one could take a modern high-end AVR and blow away a lower end far less-expensive separate amplifier, but that wouldn't really be too surprising either to most people.

Separates won't always outperform an AVR but an advantage that a separate has is that they can offer more flexibility down the road. Also separates tend to be geared more towards the higher-end while AVRs come in all flavors.

If you don't mind, let me address some of your comments because frankly, you have the wrong impression.

Your first paragraph suggests we have no experience with modern avr's. Couldn't be further from the truth. I've played with many Yamaha Avantage and Pioneer SC series of receivers. Their top of the line receivers are different animals than their mid and lower lines. Same can be said for any brand really. Hence their cost differences too.

Your second paragraph suggests receivers after 2010 are a different animal than the older, again....not exactly true. Many monster receivers older than 2010 could wipe the floor with anything made today. Granted the software is obviously better today with the development of newer surround codecs and atmos. If we are talking just power and sound quality though....b&k avr's would still beat up many today. Denon's flagship 5700, HK made some very robust receivers too that sounded very good.

3RD- We don't compare high end amps to lower end AVR'S. Nobody here ever suggested hooking up a Pass amp to a mid line avr. What is the amps we mostly push ? Parasound and B&k....and we push the used models at around 4-500 bucks. About as far from high end pricing as you can get.

Last-you suggest that separates are geared toward the higher end....do you not pay attention on the forum ? How many have started out with Dared/or the many other cheaper Chinese separates that cost as much as an entry level AVR.

We continue to hold the principles that good sound can be had with any sized wallet, and that everything in the chain matters. We also understand that good sound is subjective and not necessarily a top priority for some over convenience.

We get it....and our suggestions or recommendations usually follow what a poster will give us as far as details and priorities. Some give us little to go on, and suggestions are all over the map, and gets confusing for the poster. Which is why we ask questions, to narrow it down some, not because we wish to berate people, but simply to use our own experiences in helping them achieve their goals while spending the least possible while at the same time avoiding the pitfalls and wasting money.

Mostly the points of contention that happen on the forum comes from the various levels of audio members have experience with. One level is always at odds with another.....don't waste your money/you need to spend big bucks yada yada. Those are extreme examples but it happens all the time.

My suggestion is to listen....listen before typing, listen to what a poster is asking for. Stop typing if the conversation goes outside your area of expertise/experience. Do that, and these trivial arguments would disappear.

deronb1

I would put my Onkyo TX-SR 805, C.2007 up against almost any modern day AVR, for power and sq.

Jimbo18

msg wrote: »

Beautiful experience on S20s, both of these tracks. If the S20s are any indication, I imagine S60s must absolutely kill it.

And your S20's aren't broken in yet, are they? Should only get better.

Really making me wish I had some extra cash.