Polk Signature Series Official Discussion

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Comments

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 27,819
    lightman1 wrote: »
    Infinity RSII can drop to 1/2 ohm loads. They are famous for killing amplifiers that aren't up to the task.

    -- as were the original Quad ESL-57 electrostatics :)

    quad_impedance_graph.jpg
    source: http://www.quadesl.com/quad_main.html

    They're essentially large capacitors that make noise ;)
    They present nearly a short circuit to an amplifier at frequencies ca. 10 to 20 kHz.

    Fortunately, when appropriately driven, they make truly wonderful noise.

    11037532424_40fafabb81_b.jpgParamours and Quads 112413 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr


  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,671
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    lightman1 wrote: »
    Infinity RSII can drop to 1/2 ohm loads. They are famous for killing amplifiers that aren't up to the task.

    -- as were the original Quad ESL-57 electrostatics :)

    quad_impedance_graph.jpg
    source: http://www.quadesl.com/quad_main.html

    They're essentially large capacitors that make noise ;)
    They present nearly a short circuit to an amplifier at frequencies ca. 10 to 20 kHz.

    Fortunately, when appropriately driven, they make truly wonderful noise.

    11037532424_40fafabb81_b.jpgParamours and Quads 112413 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr


    I knew there was a reason I liked you, Doc. Just couldn't place it until now.....
  • Dabutcher
    Dabutcher Posts: 2,348
    I just traded a pair of Polk Rti-A1's in Cherry that I had no use for , for a pair of S20's. I will keep you posted of impressions. Peace. D
    MIT Magnum MH-750, Monster HTS 5100MKII, Mitsubishi rear projection 73, PS4, PSW505 , Sunfire Signature Grand 425 x 4,Parasound hca 120, LSiM 702FX x 4, FXiA6, CSiA6, SDA SRS 1.2, Pioneer Elite SC63 , Pioneer Elite BDP-05



    “Why did you get married if you wanted big speakers?”
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,555
    Niiiice!
    I'm also auditioning some S20s as well. Got about 36hrs on them so far. Not gonna say too much yet aside from that I'm impressed with what they've done with this line. I certainly like them better than RTi(not -A) series.
    I disabled signatures.
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Keep in mind that the output rating on receivers is measured at 1khz
    In addition to that it's not all about the watts but also current that the amp will provide

    Some yes, but this is what you need to truly see what they do!
    https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v473-and-rx-v573-av-receivers-ht-labs-measures
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,312
    K_M wrote: »
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Keep in mind that the output rating on receivers is measured at 1khz
    In addition to that it's not all about the watts but also current that the amp will provide

    Some yes, but this is what you need to truly see what they do!
    https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v473-and-rx-v573-av-receivers-ht-labs-measures

    ...and some yes and no to that also. Nowhere does it give a measurement of current available, which is more useful than watts. The novice would look at those numbers and scratch their heads anyway. To be fair, most receivers don't publish an amperes peak to peak number, and for good reason to not embarrass themselves.

    Interesting enough, from that link....

    Yamaha RX-V573 A/V Receiver
    Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    0.1% distortion at 20.8 watts
    1% distortion at 24.9 watts

    Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    N/A (protection engages)


    So with 5 channels driven, your smacking a top end of 25 watts, with 8 ohm speakers.
    7 channels, the auto protection engages so it's pretty much going to be a cupcake for anything over smallish speakers....and only in 5 channel mode.

    That's what people need to know, in plain English. Just sayin'
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    tonyb wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Keep in mind that the output rating on receivers is measured at 1khz
    In addition to that it's not all about the watts but also current that the amp will provide

    Some yes, but this is what you need to truly see what they do!
    https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v473-and-rx-v573-av-receivers-ht-labs-measures

    ...and some yes and no to that also. Nowhere does it give a measurement of current available, which is more useful than watts. The novice would look at those numbers and scratch their heads anyway. To be fair, most receivers don't publish an amperes peak to peak number, and for good reason to not embarrass themselves.

    Interesting enough, from that link....

    Yamaha RX-V573 A/V Receiver
    Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    0.1% distortion at 20.8 watts
    1% distortion at 24.9 watts

    Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    N/A (protection engages)


    So with 5 channels driven, your smacking a top end of 25 watts, with 8 ohm speakers.
    7 channels, the auto protection engages so it's pretty much going to be a cupcake for anything over smallish speakers....and only in 5 channel mode.

    That's what people need to know, in plain English. Just sayin'

    Well in all fairness, most of the 5 channels never run full range. Usually a subwoofer is used and that changes things drastically as far as power goes.

    We have one set up where we tried one of our cheap Yamaha AVR's, and running 2 Lsi15's it was quite capable.

    Our separate amp did better for sure, but not "That" much better if that makes sense.

    Not the ultimate in high power, but frankly, was much better than we were expecting.

    When running a sub, below 100hz, the output with 2 speakers is more than enough for most levels we would ever use.

    I agree better to have "More power",but at the same time, think AVR's are more capable than they are being given credit for.

    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,312
    True, they are not run full range, the difference being in the drastic changes a movie soundtrack has. Those surrounds can be quiet as a church mouse one second, and a cannon shot in the next. Those quick transient responses require reserve power to handle, or that cannon shot sounds like a cap gun. Music is the same way.

    Running in 2 channel mode, you'd probably not have to worry about anything with fairly efficient speakers, but speaking for myself....I wouldn't even consider putting it on a 4 ohm speaker, unless you listen at very low volumes, but then your listening without any real dynamic impact.

    Turning up the volume will put stress on the receiver, introduce distortion....as the specs show, and possibly do a smoke dance around a tweeter or 2. Point is to err on the side of having too much power than you need, not walk the line between too little and possibly doing damage. Make sense ?
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 46,030
    K_M wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    K_M wrote: »
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Keep in mind that the output rating on receivers is measured at 1khz
    In addition to that it's not all about the watts but also current that the amp will provide

    Some yes, but this is what you need to truly see what they do!
    https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v473-and-rx-v573-av-receivers-ht-labs-measures

    ...and some yes and no to that also. Nowhere does it give a measurement of current available, which is more useful than watts. The novice would look at those numbers and scratch their heads anyway. To be fair, most receivers don't publish an amperes peak to peak number, and for good reason to not embarrass themselves.

    Interesting enough, from that link....

    Yamaha RX-V573 A/V Receiver
    Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    0.1% distortion at 20.8 watts
    1% distortion at 24.9 watts

    Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    N/A (protection engages)


    So with 5 channels driven, your smacking a top end of 25 watts, with 8 ohm speakers.
    7 channels, the auto protection engages so it's pretty much going to be a cupcake for anything over smallish speakers....and only in 5 channel mode.

    That's what people need to know, in plain English. Just sayin'

    Well in all fairness, most of the 5 channels never run full range. Usually a subwoofer is used and that changes things drastically as far as power goes.

    We have one set up where we tried one of our cheap Yamaha AVR's, and running 2 Lsi15's it was quite capable.

    Our separate amp did better for sure, but not "That" much better if that makes sense.

    Not the ultimate in high power, but frankly, was much better than we were expecting.

    When running a sub, below 100hz, the output with 2 speakers is more than enough for most levels we would ever use.

    I agree better to have "More power",but at the same time, think AVR's are more capable than they are being given credit for.

    The conclusion I get from your comments is that your separate amp isn't very good to be not much better than a low powered AVR.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,145
    edited June 2017
    Scale, that's the word everyone should be inquiring about.

    A mere receiver can't reproduce the "scale" of the performance or movie because in most cases it has a puny power supply.

    Everything will play music, but trying to get dynamics and scale you need reserves and well designed gear and cables too, cables matter.

    H9

    P.s. also as you delve futher into the hobby watts really don't matter unless you are trying to achieve high levels of SPL, which is not scale or dynamics, related in the entire equation, but not the same. It's a balancing act and receivers sadly don't cut it for serious audio reproduction.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,312
    BTW...my post wasn't intended to call anyones baby ugly. Just to inform, maybe show what those numbers mean when put into application. I just used the info already posted.

    We always get a lot of questions about receivers and what they can or cannot power. Everything has it's limits for the applications people want to use. Your basic receivers from entry level to mid level from all the major big box store brands have either a 450 watts or 750 watt power supply, give or take a few. There is always exceptions too, like Nad usually under rates their power, unlike the others who exaggerate it.

    A receiver that can't power 8 ohm speakers in 7 channel surround mode, and goes into protection, is a tell tale sign of a weak power supply and one should be careful on the speakers they select to use.

    THAT is what those numbers mean in plain English for people to understand. Not trying to insult anyone's gear or look down on it, just trying to set the record straight on published specs and what they mean for real world applications.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 11,745
    Back to the OP's new speakers is it will do fine. I was just commenting on the math specs before my post
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    tonyb wrote: »
    True, they are not run full range, the difference being in the drastic changes a movie soundtrack has. Those surrounds can be quiet as a church mouse one second, and a cannon shot in the next. Those quick transient responses require reserve power to handle, or that cannon shot sounds like a cap gun. Music is the same way.

    Running in 2 channel mode, you'd probably not have to worry about anything with fairly efficient speakers, but speaking for myself....I wouldn't even consider putting it on a 4 ohm speaker, unless you listen at very low volumes, but then your listening without any real dynamic impact.

    Turning up the volume will put stress on the receiver, introduce distortion....as the specs show, and possibly do a smoke dance around a tweeter or 2. Point is to err on the side of having too much power than you need, not walk the line between too little and possibly doing damage. Make sense ?

    All of what you say, makes sense in theory, but we have actually tried Running 4 ohm speakers as I said, and while theory says not a great idea, it was nowhere near as bad as we imagined is all I am saying.

    FYI, it would play fairly loud and still sounded decent is all. It did get a bit warm for sure, but never distorted or shut down or made the music sound bad.

    What AVR's have you tried this "Torture" test on?
    Are you speaking from actual experience or what you have heard?
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,145
    edited June 2017
    "Decent" doesn't cut it for some of us. That's the other side of the coin you always conveniently miss when you are opining. You assume since it sounds decent to you, it's acceptable to all.............it's not.

    H9

    P.s. once again your viewpoint is the only one that's correct because you keep trying to nail it home. Not all of us accept "decent sounding", we strive and achieve for more. It's Ok to have a decent rig, but don't dismiss others because they want more.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,312
    K_M wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    True, they are not run full range, the difference being in the drastic changes a movie soundtrack has. Those surrounds can be quiet as a church mouse one second, and a cannon shot in the next. Those quick transient responses require reserve power to handle, or that cannon shot sounds like a cap gun. Music is the same way.

    Running in 2 channel mode, you'd probably not have to worry about anything with fairly efficient speakers, but speaking for myself....I wouldn't even consider putting it on a 4 ohm speaker, unless you listen at very low volumes, but then your listening without any real dynamic impact.

    Turning up the volume will put stress on the receiver, introduce distortion....as the specs show, and possibly do a smoke dance around a tweeter or 2. Point is to err on the side of having too much power than you need, not walk the line between too little and possibly doing damage. Make sense ?

    All of what you say, makes sense in theory, but we have actually tried Running 4 ohm speakers as I said, and while theory says not a great idea, it was nowhere near as bad as we imagined is all I am saying.

    FYI, it would play fairly loud and still sounded decent is all. It did get a bit warm for sure, but never distorted or shut down or made the music sound bad.

    What AVR's have you tried this "Torture" test on?
    Are you speaking from actual experience or what you have heard?

    I've tried it on many receivers, like Sony's and Pioneers, granted older. Only I can hear when something is stressed and don't push it or discontinue using it. I don't wait for a driver to go south. I don't call the sound "decent" either, I listen for the signs of stress.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    edited June 2017
    tonyb wrote: »
    THAT is what those numbers mean in plain English for people to understand. Not trying to insult anyone's gear or look down on it, just trying to set the record straight on published specs and what they mean for real world applications.

    Makes sense, and I am just trying to set the record straight based on actually having Tried a few AVR's in real world applications and finding, they were not nearly as bad as several have described them to be.

    I agree a separate power amp will be better for sure, that is not the argument.
    I wonder truly if everyone downplaying AVR's has actually sat down and tried a few?

    Or if their comments are based just what they read.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 11,745
    With my Pioneer and Oinko avrs, I never got full range dynamics. Kids had nearly clipped my speakers playing games and music. People show up here all the time with blown tweeters, and xovers, when they had to much of a good time, turned up the volume and clipped the system.

    It's going to happen to everyone at some time or another, due to lack of understanding.

    Drop some hip-hop or techno on a cheap AVR with some larger speakers, mix in a few beers and a party...poof. I get it, but it happens
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,555
    edited June 2017
    Kelly, curious, which Yamaha amp is your cheaper one? I ask so that I can compare it to my own experience. I have a friend who's big into Yamaha as well. He's the one who got me into Polk speakers in the first place.

    I've always noticed improvements with standalone amplification. Even smaller amplifiers, like the Parasound HCA-1000 (125wpc) or a B&K Video 5 (105wpc). The music is fuller, clearer, and more controlled. With AVRs, my experience is that things can get congested, for example, and I've lost stereo nuances.

    Experiencing these types of improvements, I, personally, get spoiled pretty quickly, and I wouldn't want to go back to lesser experiences. That would be a bummer for sure.

    Here's an example.

    I remember trying to run some RTi10s with an entry Pioneer VSX-521k when I first started. That AVR was advertised at 110W x 5. Coming from some older stereo receivers, one only 25wpc in much heavier chassis, I thought, wow, cool! This new receiver is 4 times more powerful!

    How wrong I was. Just sounded so tinny and empty. I had to turn on the Advanced Sound Receiver function (emulation/boost of some sort) to get the speakers anywhere near listenable with any amount of bass and still little to no midrange. That or the top end was just overwhelming everything (speaker design)

    Added a 200wpc B&K amp I found locally (I never get deals, but I did this time)
    PUNCH!
    I did have to run a different preamp, and the speakers still weren't good for music, ultimately, but they performed unquestionably better. Why? That B&K amp specs at 75A peak to peak. The low frequency drivers needed higher current amplification for the impact and control that those speakers are capable of and to produce more balanced sound instead of just vibrating the mid and woofers while the tweeter screamed. And screamed. And Screamed. Control and clarity were improved, while congestion and distortion greatly reduced by lifting the dam gate. The speakers were IMPACTFUL on that amp, just... owned.

    The net effect? I was able to get fuller sound at a more modest listening level without having to crank the volume just to feel like I was getting things moving.

    Higher end AVRs can probably do much better than that little Pioneer I had, and perform acceptably, depending on your speakers, goals and expectations, but for some speakers and enthusiast 2ch enjoyment, AVRs by themselves can't really match external amplification for these kinds of refinements with demanding speakers. And then there are the refinements that a lot of people don't even know about, like imaging and depth; decay. Profound experiences still elude me, but I've had a taste.

    Without an amp can you get sound? Of course.
    Will it be pleasing? Questionable/Subjective, and dependent on your measure and prior exposure. Sometimes I curse ever having found this place, but wouldn't trade the experience and knowledge gained.
    Post edited by msg on
    I disabled signatures.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 46,030
    K_M wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    THAT is what those numbers mean in plain English for people to understand. Not trying to insult anyone's gear or look down on it, just trying to set the record straight on published specs and what they mean for real world applications.

    Makes sense, and I am just trying to set the record straight based on actually having Tried a few AVR's in real world applications and finding, they were not nearly as bad as several have described them to be.

    I agree a separate power amp will be better for sure, that is not the argument.
    I wonder truly if everyone downplaying AVR's has actually sat down and tried a few?

    Or if their comments are based just what they read.

    Perhaps the real question here is have you sat down and tried a few high end amps and if so, which ones? I ask for specifics because you're always so vague. You also talk in circles to avoid answering specific questions, so I'm hoping for something different this time.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • vmaxer
    vmaxer Posts: 4,877
    K_M wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    THAT is what those numbers mean in plain English for people to understand. Not trying to insult anyone's gear or look down on it, just trying to set the record straight on published specs and what they mean for real world applications.

    Makes sense, and I am just trying to set the record straight based on actually having Tried a few AVR's in real world applications and finding, they were not nearly as bad as several have described them to be.

    I agree a separate power amp will be better for sure, that is not the argument.
    I wonder truly if everyone downplaying AVR's has actually sat down and tried a few?

    Or if their comments are based just what they read.

    I have tried and still have 3 or 4, I find what Tony and H9 are saying to be very accurate, your statements,,,not so much.

    I fried tweeters and crossovers using a high end "at the time" receiver on a set of LSi15's.

    Moved to separates and haven't had any issues at all, and play at a lot higher volumes at times, especially on movies.
    Pio Elete Pro 520
    Panamax 5400-EX
    Sunfire TGP 5
    Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
    PS Audio GCPH phono pre
    Sunfire CG 200 X 5
    Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
    OPPO BDP-83 SE
    SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
    Ctr CS1000p
    Sur - FX1000 x 4
    SUB - SVS PB2-Plus

    Workkout room:
    Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
    Onkyo TX-DS898
    GFA 555
    Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
    Ft - SDA 1C

    Not being used:
    RTi 38's -4
    RT55i's - 2
    RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
    LSI 15's
    CSi40
    PSW 404
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,145
    edited June 2017
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Scale, that's the word everyone should be inquiring about.

    A mere receiver can't reproduce the "scale" of the performance or movie because in most cases it has a puny power supply.

    Everything will play music, but trying to get dynamics and scale you need reserves and well designed gear and cables too, cables matter.

    H9

    P.s. also as you delve futher into the hobby watts really don't matter unless you are trying to achieve high levels of SPL, which is not scale or dynamics, related in the entire equation, but not the same. It's a balancing act and receivers sadly don't cut it for serious audio reproduction.

    This is a one size fits all universal statement that is not true. For example, there are huge differences between the Yamaha low end RX-V line to the top of the line RX-A Aventage 3060 for rms watts, their power supply and dynamic power, etc. Different receivers have "punny" to robust power supplies. Each should be evaluated and stand on their own merits.

    Very few if any can compete with a well engineered, well built separates. Sure it's a general statement and it rings true 95% of the time. Dynamic power ratings are a joke in many instances, just the manufacturer skewing the numbers. There is no real world application for dynamic ratings since they are achieved in an unrealistic situation that would (could) never happen in a typical home audio system.

    No such thing as a "robust" AVR power supply. It's physically impossible to contain in a standard chassis. I'm talking one that runs all channels the same and can achieve high levels of headroom.

    H9



    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,145
    All that said, there are separates out there that don't cut it either. It's not a one way street. But there are less "puny, just decent" separates out there vs. AVR's that are puny and just decent. Some are a step above decent, but not close to the level of good separates.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,145
    edited June 2017
    I also suspect many here that are touting AVR's as excellent have never heard a really good amp/pre-amp combo.

    The clarity, dynamics, precision, air, space and shear scale would blow your skirts up more than you know.

    For some it comes down to "those that don't know, don't know that they don't know"

    I'd also suspect some just won't/don't care and are fine with "just decent". Which is perfectly fine.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    msg wrote: »
    Kelly, curious, which Yamaha amp is your cheaper one? I ask so that I can compare it to my own experience. I have a friend who's big into Yamaha as well. He's the one who got me into Polk speakers in the first place.

    I've always noticed improvements with standalone amplification. Even smaller amplifiers, like the Parasound HCA-1000 (125wpc) or a B&K Video 5 (105wpc). The music is fuller, clearer, and more controlled. With AVRs, my experience is that things can get congested, for example, and I've lost stereo nuances.

    Experiencing these types of improvements, I, personally, get spoiled pretty quickly, and I wouldn't want to go back to lesser experiences. That would be a bummer for sure.

    Here's an example.

    I remember trying to run some RTi10s with an entry Pioneer VSX-521k when I first started. That AVR was advertised at 110W x 5. Coming from some older stereo receivers, one only 25wpc in much heavier chassis, I thought, wow, cool! This new receiver is 4 times more powerful!

    How wrong I was. Just sounded so tinny and empty. I had to turn on the Advanced Sound Receiver function (emulation/boost of some sort) to get the speakers anywhere near listenable with any amount of bass and still little to no midrange. That or the top end was just overwhelming everything (speaker design)

    Added a 200wpc B&K amp I found locally (I never get deals, but I did this time)
    PUNCH!
    I did have to run a different preamp, and the speakers still weren't good for music, ultimately, but they performed unquestionably better. Why? That B&K amp specs at 75A peak to peak. The low frequency drivers needed higher current amplification for the impact and control that those speakers are capable of and to produce more balanced sound instead of just vibrating the mid and woofers while the tweeter screamed. And screamed. And Screamed. Control and clarity were improved, while congestion and distortion greatly reduced by lifting the dam gate. The speakers were IMPACTFUL on that amp, just... owned.

    Higher end AVRs can probably do much better than that little Pioneer I had, and perform acceptably, depending on your speakers, goals and expectations, but for some speakers and enthusiast 2ch enjoyment, AVRs by themselves can't really match external amplification for these kinds of refinements with demanding speakers. And then there are the refinements that a lot of people don't even know about, like imaging and depth; decay. Profound experiences still elude me, but I've had a taste.

    Without an amp can you get sound? Of course.
    Will it be pleasing? Questionable/Subjective, and dependent on your measure and prior exposure. Sometimes I curse ever having found this place, but wouldn't trade the experience and knowledge gained.

    Our "cheap" one is called the Yahama RX V373. We also have one of their "almost" top of the line ones, called Aventage, but do not have it as the house I am at now, so can not truly say which model number.

    I have seen descriptions all over the place regarding AVR's, so hard to say what is what.
    As I have said before, way too many variables, and way too many subjective impressions to come to any real conclusions.

    I have seen descriptions regarding AVR's as if every single one is identical.
    I have read professional reviews saying some have great sound etc.

    Not an argument here, but simply the revolving world of audio.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • msg
    msg Posts: 6,555
    Cool. Yeah the Aventage models get some nice support. I've also been curious about some of the higher end Onkyo stuff, too. Got a soft spot for them. Onkyo was the first receiver I ever bought of my very own when I was in my 20s. Two weeks ago.

    Okay, yeah, your RX-V373 seems to be similarly specced to that Pioneer VSX-521K. Could work just fine depending on what you're driving with it, and sounds like it's working to your liking. And yeah, if you're crossing to the sub at 100Hz, you don't need much going to the speakers. Are those satellite type speakers or bookshelf ones?

    I think it all boils down to getting your ears on as much stuff as you can. You can read reviews and opinions until the end of time. IME this just gets circular and confusing after a while, and until you get ears on stuff to reconcile and give context to what you're reading, it's all just relatively meaningless.

    Even after I started collecting - okay, I'll admit it: hoarding - stuff, I still had to spend time with each piece or component to get a proper sense of how it performs. I have my reference music to use for comparisons, but even still, I need some time to settle in with stuff, listening to pieces and passages over and over again, and then I can switch stuff around to see which I prefer best.

    I know what I don't like, at least.
    I disabled signatures.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,312
    Part of this too, is knowing what to listen for, in determining if your gear is under stress. Many don't know, anyone can plug anything into anything and get sound.

    It's not a matter of this or that receiver is a piece of junk, it's a matter of putting together pieces that compliment each other both in power and sound. Many receivers I've heard sounded darn good, combined with the right gear and speakers.

    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,312
    msg wrote: »
    I know what I don't like, at least.

    ....AND that's a good portion of the journey my friend. :)
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    edited June 2017
    msg wrote: »
    Cool. Yeah the Aventage models get some nice support. I've also been curious about some of the higher end Onkyo stuff, too. Got a soft spot for them. Onkyo was the first receiver I ever bought of my very own when I was in my 20s. Two weeks ago.

    Okay, yeah, your RX-V373 seems to be similarly specced to that Pioneer VSX-521K. Could work just fine depending on what you're driving with it, and sounds like it's working to your liking. And yeah, if you're crossing to the sub at 100Hz, you don't need much going to the speakers. Are those satellite type speakers or bookshelf ones?

    I have tried it with about 5 sets of speakers now, ranging from a few bookshelfs to the lsi15's and Rta11t's

    Nothing sounded puny or weak though, in fact that was why I was so shocked. After reading many comments about how truly horrible an AVR would sound, left thinking either some are exaggerating a good bit to prove their point, OR, maybe AVR's vary a lot in sound quality, and I have not heard heard enough of them to hear one that is truly bad.

    Then it occurred to me. I read some reviews on that site I linked to. Not to my actual model I own, but its newer replacement, and a few steps up and I read just about every AVR review.

    Seems the reviewers came to different conclusions based on model and brands, and also to many of the comments in here.

    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver