Polk Signature Series Official Discussion

F1nut

K_M wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

THAT is what those numbers mean in plain English for people to understand. Not trying to insult anyone's gear or look down on it, just trying to set the record straight on published specs and what they mean for real world applications.

Makes sense, and I am just trying to set the record straight based on actually having Tried a few AVR's in real world applications and finding, they were not nearly as bad as several have described them to be.

I agree a separate power amp will be better for sure, that is not the argument.
I wonder truly if everyone downplaying AVR's has actually sat down and tried a few?

Or if their comments are based just what they read.

Perhaps the real question here is have you sat down and tried a few high end amps and if so, which ones? I ask for specifics because you're always so vague. You also talk in circles to avoid answering specific questions, so I'm hoping for something different this time.

vmaxer

K_M wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

THAT is what those numbers mean in plain English for people to understand. Not trying to insult anyone's gear or look down on it, just trying to set the record straight on published specs and what they mean for real world applications.

Makes sense, and I am just trying to set the record straight based on actually having Tried a few AVR's in real world applications and finding, they were not nearly as bad as several have described them to be.

I agree a separate power amp will be better for sure, that is not the argument.
I wonder truly if everyone downplaying AVR's has actually sat down and tried a few?

Or if their comments are based just what they read.

I have tried and still have 3 or 4, I find what Tony and H9 are saying to be very accurate, your statements,,,not so much.

I fried tweeters and crossovers using a high end "at the time" receiver on a set of LSi15's.

Moved to separates and haven't had any issues at all, and play at a lot higher volumes at times, especially on movies.

heiney9

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

Scale, that's the word everyone should be inquiring about.

A mere receiver can't reproduce the "scale" of the performance or movie because in most cases it has a puny power supply.

Everything will play music, but trying to get dynamics and scale you need reserves and well designed gear and cables too, cables matter.

H9

P.s. also as you delve futher into the hobby watts really don't matter unless you are trying to achieve high levels of SPL, which is not scale or dynamics, related in the entire equation, but not the same. It's a balancing act and receivers sadly don't cut it for serious audio reproduction.

This is a one size fits all universal statement that is not true. For example, there are huge differences between the Yamaha low end RX-V line to the top of the line RX-A Aventage 3060 for rms watts, their power supply and dynamic power, etc. Different receivers have "punny" to robust power supplies. Each should be evaluated and stand on their own merits.

Very few if any can compete with a well engineered, well built separates. Sure it's a general statement and it rings true 95% of the time. Dynamic power ratings are a joke in many instances, just the manufacturer skewing the numbers. There is no real world application for dynamic ratings since they are achieved in an unrealistic situation that would (could) never happen in a typical home audio system.

No such thing as a "robust" AVR power supply. It's physically impossible to contain in a standard chassis. I'm talking one that runs all channels the same and can achieve high levels of headroom.

H9

heiney9

All that said, there are separates out there that don't cut it either. It's not a one way street. But there are less "puny, just decent" separates out there vs. AVR's that are puny and just decent. Some are a step above decent, but not close to the level of good separates.

H9

heiney9

I also suspect many here that are touting AVR's as excellent have never heard a really good amp/pre-amp combo.

The clarity, dynamics, precision, air, space and shear scale would blow your skirts up more than you know.

For some it comes down to "those that don't know, don't know that they don't know"

I'd also suspect some just won't/don't care and are fine with "just decent". Which is perfectly fine.

H9

K_M

msg wrote: »

Kelly, curious, which Yamaha amp is your cheaper one? I ask so that I can compare it to my own experience. I have a friend who's big into Yamaha as well. He's the one who got me into Polk speakers in the first place.

I've always noticed improvements with standalone amplification. Even smaller amplifiers, like the Parasound HCA-1000 (125wpc) or a B&K Video 5 (105wpc). The music is fuller, clearer, and more controlled. With AVRs, my experience is that things can get congested, for example, and I've lost stereo nuances.

Experiencing these types of improvements, I, personally, get spoiled pretty quickly, and I wouldn't want to go back to lesser experiences. That would be a bummer for sure.

Here's an example.

I remember trying to run some RTi10s with an entry Pioneer VSX-521k when I first started. That AVR was advertised at 110W x 5. Coming from some older stereo receivers, one only 25wpc in much heavier chassis, I thought, wow, cool! This new receiver is 4 times more powerful!

How wrong I was. Just sounded so tinny and empty. I had to turn on the Advanced Sound Receiver function (emulation/boost of some sort) to get the speakers anywhere near listenable with any amount of bass and still little to no midrange. That or the top end was just overwhelming everything (speaker design)

Added a 200wpc B&K amp I found locally (I never get deals, but I did this time)
PUNCH!
I did have to run a different preamp, and the speakers still weren't good for music, ultimately, but they performed unquestionably better. Why? That B&K amp specs at 75A peak to peak. The low frequency drivers needed higher current amplification for the impact and control that those speakers are capable of and to produce more balanced sound instead of just vibrating the mid and woofers while the tweeter screamed. And screamed. And Screamed. Control and clarity were improved, while congestion and distortion greatly reduced by lifting the dam gate. The speakers were IMPACTFUL on that amp, just... owned.

Higher end AVRs can probably do much better than that little Pioneer I had, and perform acceptably, depending on your speakers, goals and expectations, but for some speakers and enthusiast 2ch enjoyment, AVRs by themselves can't really match external amplification for these kinds of refinements with demanding speakers. And then there are the refinements that a lot of people don't even know about, like imaging and depth; decay. Profound experiences still elude me, but I've had a taste.

Without an amp can you get sound? Of course.
Will it be pleasing? Questionable/Subjective, and dependent on your measure and prior exposure. Sometimes I curse ever having found this place, but wouldn't trade the experience and knowledge gained.

Our "cheap" one is called the Yahama RX V373. We also have one of their "almost" top of the line ones, called Aventage, but do not have it as the house I am at now, so can not truly say which model number.

I have seen descriptions all over the place regarding AVR's, so hard to say what is what.
As I have said before, way too many variables, and way too many subjective impressions to come to any real conclusions.

I have seen descriptions regarding AVR's as if every single one is identical.
I have read professional reviews saying some have great sound etc.

Not an argument here, but simply the revolving world of audio.

msg

Cool. Yeah the Aventage models get some nice support. I've also been curious about some of the higher end Onkyo stuff, too. Got a soft spot for them. Onkyo was the first receiver I ever bought of my very own when I was in my 20s. Two weeks ago.

Okay, yeah, your RX-V373 seems to be similarly specced to that Pioneer VSX-521K. Could work just fine depending on what you're driving with it, and sounds like it's working to your liking. And yeah, if you're crossing to the sub at 100Hz, you don't need much going to the speakers. Are those satellite type speakers or bookshelf ones?

I think it all boils down to getting your ears on as much stuff as you can. You can read reviews and opinions until the end of time. IME this just gets circular and confusing after a while, and until you get ears on stuff to reconcile and give context to what you're reading, it's all just relatively meaningless.

Even after I started collecting - okay, I'll admit it: hoarding - stuff, I still had to spend time with each piece or component to get a proper sense of how it performs. I have my reference music to use for comparisons, but even still, I need some time to settle in with stuff, listening to pieces and passages over and over again, and then I can switch stuff around to see which I prefer best.

I know what I don't like, at least.

tonyb

Part of this too, is knowing what to listen for, in determining if your gear is under stress. Many don't know, anyone can plug anything into anything and get sound.

It's not a matter of this or that receiver is a piece of junk, it's a matter of putting together pieces that compliment each other both in power and sound. Many receivers I've heard sounded darn good, combined with the right gear and speakers.

tonyb

msg wrote: »

I know what I don't like, at least.

....AND that's a good portion of the journey my friend.

K_M

msg wrote: »

Cool. Yeah the Aventage models get some nice support. I've also been curious about some of the higher end Onkyo stuff, too. Got a soft spot for them. Onkyo was the first receiver I ever bought of my very own when I was in my 20s. Two weeks ago.

Okay, yeah, your RX-V373 seems to be similarly specced to that Pioneer VSX-521K. Could work just fine depending on what you're driving with it, and sounds like it's working to your liking. And yeah, if you're crossing to the sub at 100Hz, you don't need much going to the speakers. Are those satellite type speakers or bookshelf ones?

I have tried it with about 5 sets of speakers now, ranging from a few bookshelfs to the lsi15's and Rta11t's

Nothing sounded puny or weak though, in fact that was why I was so shocked. After reading many comments about how truly horrible an AVR would sound, left thinking either some are exaggerating a good bit to prove their point, OR, maybe AVR's vary a lot in sound quality, and I have not heard heard enough of them to hear one that is truly bad.

Then it occurred to me. I read some reviews on that site I linked to. Not to my actual model I own, but its newer replacement, and a few steps up and I read just about every AVR review.

Seems the reviewers came to different conclusions based on model and brands, and also to many of the comments in here.

heiney9

Some of us also have a lower tolerance for "just decent" and higher expectations of what sounds good. That's not meant to sound snobbish at all, it comes from experiences, likes, dislikes, and ultimately what we are willing to accept at the lowest threshold and what we are looking for out of our rigs.

I have friends who are perfectly content to drive a small entry level automobile. Some of us prefer something a little sportier, plusher, quieter, larger, more driver specific traits, etc.

heiney9

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

AVRs have built in amplifiers and their amps need to be matched with compatible speakers. A 60 watt amp just may be challenged to drive very inefficient 4 Ohm speakers, that is as true for separates as it is for AVRs. One size fit all statements about separates are as false as one size fit all statements about receivers. If the front speakers are too much of a load for the AVRs amp, add a separate power amp that is compatible and able to drive those speakers.

I did say that, go back and read. I said it's NOT a one way street.

However I have a 30wpc amp that I have yet to stump or find the upper limits of. In fact it plays into a dead short. 30wpc. Has more scale and dynamics than just about everything I've heard. So really specs mean nothing. On paper this amp looks a bit anemic. It's a power house and is one of the best sounding amps I've ever put ears on.

Ratings are a very loose guide but by no means are they going to tell you anything about how something will sound or perform, nor will they allow comparison.

H9

heiney9

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

AVRs have built in amplifiers and their amps need to be matched with compatible speakers. A 60 watt amp just may be challenged to drive very inefficient 4 Ohm speakers, that is as true for separates as it is for AVRs. One size fit all statements about separates are as false as one size fit all statements about receivers. If the front speakers are too much of a load for the AVRs amp, add a separate power amp that is compatible and able to drive those speakers.

Then the compromise becomes the pre-amp section of the AVR, which is never a strong point. A separate pre in most cases will perform better (if that's what's important to you) AVR's are compromises set to a specific price point.

H9

begbie

HI guys,

Been a while. Signatures caught my eye. Looking to build a small 5.1 with the s50,s15 and debating the s35 or s30. What do some of you think of which center?

Also I saw an S15 review on youtube and the reviewer noted the glossy plastic cap is loose toward the bottom. Any owners experience this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdtccD4FUY

Starts at around the 4 minute mark.

txcoastal1

Wow interesting. Thanks for posting. Curious if that also causes in air leaks

F1nut

I've taken the front bezel piece off my S20's, so I can tell you first hand they are not easy to get off. Therefore, I suspect the guy in the video broke his trying to remove them and that's why they are loose now. Mine are not broken, sit tight and don't make the noise that his do.

Ron, there would be no air leaks from that issue he has.

msg

Alright Jesse - dish.
What'cha got in store for the S20s?
Rebuilt the crossovers yet?

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

Some of us also have a lower tolerance for "just decent" and higher expectations of what sounds good. That's not meant to sound snobbish at all, it comes from experiences, likes, dislikes, and ultimately what we are willing to accept at the lowest threshold and what we are looking for out of our rigs.

I have friends who are perfectly content to drive a small entry level automobile. Some of us prefer something a little sportier, plusher, quieter, larger, more driver specific traits, etc.

I think in many cases were are arguing "Semantics"

Read the reviews I linked to a few posts up.
They review scores of amps and receivers, but their comments I found most interesting.

heiney9

Package it however you want to justify your POV. I can assure you semantics isn't the issue.

H9

mhardy6647

This seems like a good time to mention:

1) There is no such thing as "RMS Watts" (FTC 1974 regulations on stereo output power ratings notwithstanding). AC Volts RMS, yes, but "RMS Watts", strictly speaking is an average power measurement, probably better referred to as "Continuous sine wave watts".
https://books.google.com/books?id=L38MrvScG3gC&pg=PA335&lpg=PA335&dq=RMS+watts+is+a+misnomer&source=bl&ots=L7sRwVPdFN&sig=JuZcctDSRtH9dU59sX8CBRFloCQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj12_eysM3UAhWBPT4KHTxzC8Q4ChDoAQgpMAE#v=onepage&q=RMS watts is a misnomer&f=false

2) Music (or most any other audio program material) is not a continuous sine wave (although, of course, by Fourier series any waveform may be "produced" by an appropriate combination of sine waves")

3) Loudspeakers are complex and reactive loads for an amplifier -- and the impedance "curve" of most dynamic (permanent magnet cone or dome drivers) loudspeakers is pretty -- complicated.

4) All in all, "output power" specifications - though easily measured in a reproducible way (which is an important thing, don't get me wrong!) - are pretty meaningless in the real world for listening to real music reproduction using real loudspeakers in a real acoustic environment.

The point is that it is all important: the room, the type of music (or other program material, since the focus is on multichannel A/V reproduction), the loudspeakers and the listening level. Investing lots of time listening to lots of different components in different environments -- building one's own database -- is the best way to make good choices of hardware for oneself.

3-ish watts per channel (two channels in toto) at my house, driving loudspeakers with a sensitivity of ca.102 dB SPL per 2.83 AC volts (RMS) input signal at a distance of 1 meter.

As the folks from Rolls-Royce used to say, when asked about the horsepower specification for their motorcars, "adequate".

msg

begbie wrote: »

Hi guys,
Been a while. Signatures caught my eye. Looking to build a small 5.1 with the s50,s15 and debating the s35 or s30. What do some of you think of which center?
Also I saw an S15 review on youtube and the reviewer noted the glossy plastic cap is loose toward the bottom. Any owners experience this?
Starts at around the 4 minute mark.

Begbie - I think consensus is for the S30 if you have the space, otherwise S35 if you want to have it sitting on top of a tv stand in front of your tv.

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Wow interesting. Thanks for posting. Curious if that also causes in air leaks

F1nut wrote: »

I've taken the front bezel piece off my S20's, so I can tell you first hand they are not easy to get off. Therefore, I suspect the guy in the video broke his trying to remove them and that's why they are loose now. Mine are not broken, sit tight and don't make the noise that his do.

Interesting. I just went a rapped on the bezel on the S20s I got from [needs-nick]Craig. Sure enough, there's a void on mine, both bezels, and it slaps a little, but not as bad as in that guy's review. Also no visible gaps on quick inspection. Of course I didn't go pulling on them like that guy did in his review (wtf. I kept waiting for it to snap! also, had to take a Dramamine with all the zoom play) Does take a good measure of rapping to demonstrate. I've not had any problems with rattling or vibration, though. The cabinets on these are very solid. If more came through the cabinet while rockin' I could see where it might be a problem. At some point I might try to fashion something non-destructive to take up the gap/isolate, but for now, just continuing on with burning/breaking them in.

motorhead43026

^^My S60's have no visible gaps but I can get a little slap from one area when tapping on the bottom bezel on both speakers. I going to mark it down as nature of the beast.

msg

High lounge trumpet and accompaniment sounds amazing on Signature S20s. Seems like it should be painful, but it's not at all. In fact, makes me want deeper immersion in the goodness, like you can't get enough. They seem very lively, but not harsh or edgy.

They seem really good at "space" - is this airiness?
Lushy echo and decay that's taking its time, as if on its own schedule, no rush, nowhere to be.

I've got SOMA FM's Groove Salad going while I strip the vinyl off some Monitor/RTA-11Ts.

mrloren

Now I just had to go tap on the bezel on all my Signatures... none are loose

For the AVR's. That is all I have owned. Never had a seperate amp before, A friend did let me check out his Emo when I had my 5300ES and it did make a big difference on my RTi8. He was trying to sell it to me, no cash at the time.

One thing I noticed was on my Sony flagship 5700ES @ 135X7 it had a max power input of 430 watts. My Marantz SR5010 has 630 watt input power. Gee and my Marantz sounds better why?

I am thinking of getting an amp http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marmm7025/marantz-mm7025-2-ch-x-140-watts-power-amplifier/1.html It's not the biggest badest amp out there but it would take the load off my receiver. I am shooting for Christmas time frame to get it. Also unless I find a way to get more power to my family room I a limited to a 15A circuit.

K_M

heiney9 wrote: »

Package it however you want to justify your POV. I can assure you semantics isn't the issue.

H9

Was giving you an easy out.

Would be interested if you even knew what my "View" was.

F1nut

K_M wrote: »

heiney9 wrote: »

Package it however you want to justify your POV. I can assure you semantics isn't the issue.

H9

Was giving you an easy out.

Would be interested if you even knew what my "View" was.

Correction, you were trying to give yourself an out. It's what you do time and again otherwise known as your MO.

Gatecrasher

F1nut wrote: »

Perhaps the real question here is have you sat down and tried a few high end amps and if so, which ones? I ask for specifics because you're always so vague. You also talk in circles to avoid answering specific questions, so I'm hoping for something different this time.

I think the real question some of you guys who are so opinionated on this subject might want to consider is that while your "stereotype" of AVRs (no pun intended) is based on older equipment as Tony mentioned, you probably haven't really had the opportunity to evaluate the more modern modern AVRs. AVRs produced after 2010 are different animals than the type we grew up with.

Also, comparing high end amps to lower end (and significantly less expensive AVRs) will always help to reinforce your stereotype but that's about all it accomplishes. On the other hand one could take a modern high-end AVR and blow away a lower end far less-expensive separate amplifier, but that wouldn't really be too surprising either to most people.

Separates won't always outperform an AVR but an advantage that a separate has is that they can offer more flexibility down the road. Also separates tend to be geared more towards the higher-end while AVRs come in all flavors.

F1nut

Says the guy with an AVR from 2008.

msg

Lol, geedee, guys, you're gonna get the Internet closed by Labor Day at this rate.

Gatecrasher

F1nut wrote: »

Says the guy with an AVR from 2008.

Yeah that's right. The SC-09TX was the AVR that kind of got the ball rolling for the newer class "D" ICE-powered AVRs.