And the debate continues...

vc69

"The vinyl disc is a steadily collapsing medium," says Ludwig, who went on to become a Grammy-winning mastering engineer, with credits on Patti Smith's Horses, Steely Dan's Gaucho and White's Lazaretto, among many others. "The closer it gets to the label, the more the information is getting compromised, the high frequencies getting lost."


http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl-5352162

MrBuhl

That was an interesting read - thanks!

drumminman

I noticed years ago that the closer the stylus gets to the center of the record the more distorted the music sounds. One of the aspects of vinyl I never cared for.

mantis

I get it, you wanna feel like you did 30 years ago. I also get it physical media is awesome and the feeling of putting on a record , turning it over and having no control of the songs that are being played etc etc etc. The art of listening I guess.
But IMO I never thought they sounded better then CD SACD or the new HIGH REZ files you can get.
I don't own a record player but at times I wouldn't mind having one.

Mikey081057

I noticed the closer it gets to the center of the LP the sooner I have to get off my **** to go and change it or flip it.

vc69

I think this pretty much nails it:

"That said, every audio engineer L.A. Weekly spoke to said it's not hard to find LPs that sound better than CDs. Mastering, production and manufacturing variables can drastically tilt the scale either way."

I wish more people would understand that simple statement.

MrBuhl

mantis wrote: »

I get it, you wanna feel like you did 30 years ago. I also get it physical media is awesome and the feeling of putting on a record , turning it over and having no control of the songs that are being played etc etc etc. The art of listening I guess.

I think this is part of it for me - I thought his analogy to having a cigar with friends and enjoying the moment was a good one. I'm much more likely to listen to songs on an album - that I will immediately and without hesitation skip with the control of a CD. I like your statement "the art of listening".

voltz

I have several Vinyl LP's and the matching SACD's and to me the vinyl sounds warmer and the SACD's a little brighter. atleast it does to my ears in my setup.

I still prefer Vinyl and enjoy cleaning them & playing them.

but I understand people who prefer digital files or hirez files for their play lists etc...

I just not in that crowd.

take Supertramps LP's -> *Crime of the Century is awesome on vinyl* Breakfast in America is lousy and sounds better on standard redbook. how can they get one so right and the other so wrong?

leftwinger57

I'm w/ Mikey here on this one. I do not hear any difference even if my Adcom is on for seconds and the tt is near the so called half of the LP. I just don't get this unless you dudes have uber expensive/sensitive gear and ears like an owl. For the most part mostly all of my 100 or so LPs are very clean w/ very few little pops and crackles. As good as they are I still like the clearer sound of CDs or running my I-Pod for hours on end both through tuner input of my NAD 1020a pre.

motorhead43026

Whenever I play vinyl I smell incense (amongst other things), see psychedelic art on the walls and naked bodies writhing on the floor. Takes me back to my days living in a commune and my youth. Yes, it is the experience that elevates vinyl. It is after work and I am to tired for that flashback, so in goes the CD.

steveinaz

I think the "ritual" around prepping an album for play; and then the total mechancial aspect of everything is what really makes vinyl fun. I do miss it sometimes, being a child of the 70's, I had turntables for many years--I HATED 8-track.

westmassguy

I had a decent work-horse turntable, Technics SL1100A, and one of the best MM Cartridges ever made, the Shure V15 Type V MR. They played very well together. Do I miss it? Sometimes when I'm feeling nostalgic. I don't miss using my disc washer before every play, flipping the album after 4 songs, cleaning the stylus, and worrying whether my then 2 year old would destroy it. When CDs came out, I couldn't buy them fast enough.

[Deleted User]

Vinyl roolz.
Actually I don't like limiting myself. I don't have to. I do as the mood strikes me.
I have four Queen CDs and any number of Rush CDs that will quickly tell you
that CDs can SUCK. Hi-Res downloads are probably a mixed bag as well.
Nowadays, if they record in 24 bit or 32 bit floating and mix in 32 bit floating...
and Master correctly...
we might be on to something and I'll finally get rid of my 600+ Cds.
Well, some of them.

[Deleted User]

Good read BTW.
"I think some people interpret the lack of top end [on vinyl] and interpret an analog type of distortion as warmth," says Jim Anderson, a Grammy-winning recording engineer and professor at New York University's Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music. "It's a misinterpretation of it. But if they like it, they like it. That's fine."

You can say the same thing about Hi-Res files. As you increase the frequency you
can/do get a different kind of distortion that some people may find pleasing.
Sorry, humans can only hear so much.

gce

I had a lot of CD's so when I found out about NAS's and that I could rip my CD's in a lossless FLAC format I did. Then I found HDtracks and found I could download high-res FLAC files up to 192/24 and they would play on my system. Then I got an SACD player and got into SACD's late but nonetheless it sounded awesome. So I had my NAS full of FLAC and ripped CD's. I had my SACD's and all sounded so good.

They I decided to get back into Vinyl because my sister had a whole $hit load of old vinyl she gave me. Now I keep buying vinyl and I honestly can't remember when the last time I fired up the NAS or played a SACD.

Like Red said..."Vinyl roolz"

muncybob

I still have the Shure cart westmassguy speaks of and am waiting for the Jico SAS stylus to arrive, so I'm hoping I'll also be in the vinyl roolz boat soon. Recently picked up the Crime of the Century MoFi album and it sits pateintly next to the tt. There's just something to be said for holding and reading the album cover while listening, even though I've read it over many times before.

Dawgfish

Kenneth Swauger's signature "the best way to enjoy a quality digital setup is to never hear a quality analog setup" pretty much sums it up for me. I play all the formats (CD, SACD, dvd-a, streaming files, hi-rez downloads, vinyl) and in my system vinyl smokes everything else. No contest! I don't get the life-like sound, dynamics, and soundstage realism with the other formats that I get with vinyl. The loss of high frequencies towards the end of the record that the engineer refers to is only true with certain cartridge alignments.

dromunds

I agree with Dawgfish, I also enjoy all formats, and frankly a lot of the sound quality of vinyl depends on the quality of your stylus, phono stage, etc. If you don't have a good vinyl set-up you just ain't gonna get a good end result. If you have a decent set-up, however, vinyl has a quality that is preferable to me. SACD comes close, there are some SACDs that sound VERY good. In all mediums, however, the sound quality is dependant on the source material. As Red points out, there are vinyl albums by the same band that are on both ends of the spectrum. Dawgfish is also correct that the loss of high frequencies on a record are due to factors other than the intrinsic quality of the vinyl medium, in my experience usually due to an inferior cartridge or alignment. Or something else downstream, even the choice of tube in tube equipment, or IC's or SC's. I play all formats, sometimes I don't feel like flipping an album, sometimes I do. But I went back to vinyl because of its warmth, life-like sound and realism. And although I thought flipping the albums was a real pain when I first got back into vinyl, I now find it good to actually force myself to slow down and really listen to the music again.

vc69

I definitely have recordings that I much prefer the vinyl to digital, and many more that I prefer the digital format to vinyl. One disclaimer, the analog rig I listen to is rather entry-level, so I know there are levels of analog nirvana that I haven't begun to reach for.
One thing that kills me, as I am not a wealthy man, is how bleeding expensive it is to really take analog to the level I would like to hear. It's just so damn out of reach for me.

tonyb

You can get good analog playback for not a lot of coin. Granted, everything in this hobby comes with a price tag but good sound can be had with any wallet. PM some of the TT guys and they can get you straightened out.

vc69

Roger that, Tony.
We have a VPI Traveler (Grado Prestige Gold) and an ARC PH5. It definitely doesn't suck. I just know that that particular rig has the potential to really shine with a better TT. The Traveler was a "let's see if we like this vinyl thing" purchase. Certainly not a destination piece. Next-level decks are a commitment.

Point is, vinyl is a dark rabbit hole and the price to play at a higher level is prohibitive for many.

tonyb

vc69 wrote: »

Point is, vinyl is a dark rabbit hole and the price to play at a higher level is prohibitive for many.

That it is pal. I've been out of the TT realm since kids came along. Like I said though, many here can get you on a path to good sound for not a lot of coin, just ask.

F1nut

I grew up on vinyl. There's nothing that would ever make me go back to it.

vmaxer

F1nut wrote: »

I grew up on vinyl. There's nothing that would ever make me go back to it.

You must have a great system then??

Nightfall

F1nut wrote: »

I grew up on vinyl. There's nothing that would ever make me go back to it.

Is it because you like the sound of digital better or because you don't enjoy the vinyl process (keeping them clean, etc)?

txcoastal1

Its nice to have a vinyl rig handy, but for a daily driver bah on physical media
Just finished packing up for LSAF: JRiver media server with a 10" monitor, Wifi router, keyboard, mouse, Hugo DAC in a carry on. Hook it up in 10min and connect to Ipad.
Meeting the speakers and integrated in Dallas

F1nut

You must have a great system then??

I like them.

Is it because you like the sound of digital better or because you don't enjoy the vinyl process (keeping them clean, etc)?

I never liked the pops, clicks and surface noise. Nothing worse to me when sitting back, eyes closed, relaxing to the music than to hear a pop. It absolutely ruins the experience for me. On the other hand, R2R tape hiss doesn't bother me because it doesn't jump out and say, Hey!

I treat my CD/SACD's similar to the way I treated my vinyl. Kept sealed when not playing, held by the edges, checked for any dust before going in the player and if any is seen, blown off with compressed air. As for the artwork and written info, I have no problem seeing it.

Dromunds talks about the warmth of vinyl. CD/SACD's can and do have that, but just like vinyl some can sound pretty bad. The quality of the sound depends on the mastering and the playback gear way more than the format. Life-like sound? Not available on any format. Realism? It's all an illusion. You want realism, go to a live performance.

Then we have the irrefutable fact that every time the needle is dragged through the grooves a little bit of fidelity is lost and that bothers me.

nooshinjohn

drumminman wrote: »

I noticed years ago that the closer the stylus gets to the center of the record the more distorted the music sounds. One of the aspects of vinyl I never cared for.

Linear tracking solves that pesky problem. Such a setup tracks the recording the way it was cut in the first place.

F1nut

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Linear tracking solves that pesky problem. Such a setup tracks the recording the way it was cut in the first place.

I had one of those. I'm actually surprised all TT's today are not linear tracking.

[Deleted User]

I left a CD in the car and it warped.
Trying to fix it now.

MrBuhl

^^ LOL - I have two 13" x 13" x 1/2" plates of tempered glass for my vinyl that needs unwarping - but that there - is the mother of invention! CD warpage fix Nice! ^^