And the debate continues...

MrBuhl

F1nut wrote: »

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Linear tracking solves that pesky problem. Such a setup tracks the recording the way it was cut in the first place.

I had one of those. I'm actually surprised all TT's today are not linear tracking.

I often think about getting one - many are even track programmable like a CD I guess which is a cool luxury - but do I need a third TT? No!

Then again - Does need count for anything in audio - No! Maybe I'll start looking again LOL.

steveinaz

In the 80's I had a Yamaha PX-3 linear tracking, LOVED it. Later replaced it with a Yamaha PF-1000---loved it too. I believe my "ex" still has the PF-1000.

Chops

That article is useless because it's all about the guys who are for digital. So what. As they keep saying, "digital measures better every time". Who cares? I don't have the hearing of measuring equipment, do I? No, I have the hearing of a human being. A lot of things look a lot better on paper, but once put side by side in real life, things can change real quick and be the exact opposite of those measurements.

This distortion BS they kept going on about when the needle gets towards the label on the record... It's called "Inner Groove Distortion", or IGD. IF you're not a complete bone-head and have a decent TT, decent cartridge and actually know how to set the whole thing up, you won't get any of that IGD. I can play ANY of my records and they play crystal clear from beginning to end.

I've got probably 13 or so albums that I have on CD, vinyl, FLAC, High Rez, SACD, DSD and even old DVD Audio, some of which are Fleetwood Mac, Depeche Mode, Norah Jones, Genesis, Phil Collins, U2, Metallica, Jimmy Rogers, and a few others. Every single one of them, the vinyl sounds better... Every single time!

Sure, the LP's may lack just a slight bit of dynamic range, but not much. They certainly don't lack any bass or treble over the other media types, nor does the cartridge start jumping and hopping all over the place. Again, that has to do strongly with proper TT setup.

Even one of my brothers who absolutely hates vinyl says time and time again that vinyl on my system always sounds so much better than the digital equivalent. And this is coming from someone that "hates" vinyl! Go figure.

On top of all that, now with all of the "heavy" vinyl out there these days (150, 180, 200 & 220 gram), the recording and mastering engineers take more time in the process of making great sounding LP's. PLUS full size 12" vinyl cut at 45 rpm allows for more information to be put back in the vinyl to close the gap even more with digital as far as "measurements" go, which I could give a rat's ****$ about. Which none of that is to say that old original pressings from the 50's through late 80's weren't great sounding either. They were! There's some old albums of mine on thin flimsy mass produced vinyl that still sounds better than the same on remastered heavy vinyl. Obviously a lot if not all of that has to do with the remastering.

And the "warmth" people talk about when referring to vinyl is NOT due to muffled bass or rolled off treble. It has to do with the fact that everything associated with a TT is about vibration. The cartridge not only picks up the vibration from the tip of the stylus, but also the TT plinth, the platter, the LP, and the tonearm. Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording, but they are what breathes life into the sound of vinyl, taking on an organic life of its own and giving the overall sound a sense of being alive. Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.

And trust me, the so-called wonderful measurements of digital are definitely not without faults of their own with grain and jitter with mis-matched clocking. But Anyway...

I am all for vinyl. Always have been, always will be. And nothing will ever change that.

F1nut

Chops, you started off well with your first post, but you have fallen hard.

dromunds

Hopefully, I have attached several photos from Guy Fletcher's diary of the recording of Mark Knopfler's last two albums.

See more at http://www.guyfletcher.co.uk

Fletcher's diaries give us a glimpse of the various equipment they utilitzed to record these albums. Much of it is restored vintage analog. Great care is taken in choosing the equipment, at every step of the way, just as they choose their guitars and other instruments. Many artists are going back to recording on analog tape machines, (as well as utilizing analog microphones and vintage tube amplifiers, etc.,) to attempt to capture as much as possible a lifelike and realistic studio recording.

http://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/images/cms/diaries/2014 Recording/Entry 3/ATRMontage.jpg

http://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/images/cms/diaries/MK 2011 studio diary/3x2trks.jpg

Chops

F1nut wrote: »

Chops, you started off well with your first post, but you have fallen hard.

How do you figure?

Just because you "grew up on vinyl" and have no plans of ever going back to it but because I do like vinyl and continue to use it? Or because I complained about the people who were interviewed in that article?

That doesn't seem like a very fair assessment of me coming from you.

gce

[Deleted User]

To summarize,
VINYL SUCKS
NO IT DOESN'T
I search for the best media I can find
DIGITAL SUCKS
NO IT DOESN'T

pongshi

I am in my fifties and I started with vinyl, went to CDs and now I am back to vinyl. I have experienced both crappy and fantastic sound in CDs and LPs, but I do prefer the active listening experience of vinyl. You are fully engaged when you are listening to vinyl. I enjoy the artwork, reading lyrics, and reading the information about the production of the LP. CDs just don't provide the same experience. Getting good sonic results from vinyl does require a pretty substantial investment and there is a learning curve, especially when you have to worry about tracking, cartridges, hum, phono stages, etc., etc. I do think the trouble is well worth it, especially if you want a more immersive experience. If you are digital guru, great, but I am sticking with my vinyl. Considering the nature of our instant gratification society, I can understand the appeal of digital formats. I guess rather than chugging a shot of espresso, I think I would rather nurse a cappuccino.

F1nut

Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording

No, they aren't. They are part of the playback method.

Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.

That is where you fell down.

If that's what you expereince with your digital media I submit that it is a result of your choice of gear rather than the format.

Dawgfish

F1nut wrote: »

Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording

No, they aren't. They are part of the playback method.

Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.

That is where you fell down.

If that's what you expereince with your digital media I submit that it is a result of your choice of gear rather than the format.

The same can be said about choice in gear concerning vinyl. Ticks, pops, surface noise, etc. that you don't like in your vinyl listening experience are largely dependent on not only cleanliness, but also gear. Some cartridges, phono pres, mats, etc. are much quieter with the ticks, pops, etc. than others.

I'm not here to tell anyone what is the superior format. Whatever you like to listen to, go for it! I like all the formats, but prefer vinyl. Why? because in my setup it sounds the best! That's me and my setup. Obviously different folks have different experiences. Whatever you like, rock on!

tonyb

Having grown up also on vinyl, I can honestly say it for sure doesn't suck. It's just a pain in the arse is all.

There are of course benefits and drawbacks to both vinyl and digital. Comes down to what fits your lifestyle really. I still dig the vinyl sound, just can't deal with all that's involved and having to get up to turn an album after the 3 songs I like are done. Digital is getting real close to vinyl, so much so that one really has to weigh the pro's and con's of each.

Either way, if your diggin' the vinyl scene, rock on brothers.....and if your diggin' the digital side, more power to you too.

[Deleted User]

Digital Bytes.

Chops

F1nut wrote: »

Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording

No, they aren't. They are part of the playback method.

Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.

That is where you fell down.

If that's what you expereince with your digital media I submit that it is a result of your choice of gear rather than the format.

Uh yeah, you're wrong on both accounts.

The initial vibrations (the ones coming from the stylus and cantilever) ARE part of the original recording. If not, then you're just listening to the lead-in and lead-out grooves.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with my digital gear. Over the years I've had Sony ES, Carver, Pioneer Elite, Rega, Cary Audio, McIntosh, Moon Audio (just to name a few) CD players, SACD players, DVD-A players, transports and DAC's, and a plethora of high-end interconnects.

Every time, my analog rig always sounded better. And as TT's and preamps are concerned, I've had everything from 80's vintage Yamaha, Denon, Luxman, Technics TT's as well as new Linn, Music Hall, Project, Thorens, Clearaudio TT's with a number of high-end preamps and interconnects.

So in short, I'm pretty sure I have a fairly good grip on my quality of gear and proper setup.

Oh, and these people who complain all the time about ticks and pops with vinyl... That's because those people don't know how to properly take care of and maintain their vinyl. I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them. It also has a lot to do with poor choices of the type of stylus used.

I guess now you'll say that my "inferior gear" isn't good enough to pick up on those ticks and pops. LOL

mhardy6647

Eight tracks... they're comin' back. Mark my words...

8trackin2 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

F1nut

Uh yeah, you're wrong on both accounts.

Ummm....no.

The cartridge not only picks up the vibration from the tip of the stylus, but also the TT plinth, the platter, the LP, and the tonearm.

All that vibration you note is not part of the recording. It's part of the playback method.

Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.

Like I said, the problem seems to be with your choice of gear as there are a great many, including myself that find digital to be anything but how you describe it.

I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.

I've heard a ton of vinyl on some very impressive set ups with cleaned to death LP's and every time there has been a pop, a click, whatever. To you, I say BS and welcome to the BOZO list.

BlueFox

Not quite sure why the hostility here from the vinyl crowd. Sure it can sound good, but it is obsolete, and it does have ticks, pops, and rumble. There is no denying that. On the other hand, digital will only get better and better (along with less expensive), while vinyl has reached its peak, and that peak costs upward of 6 figures to reach. Also, holding and reading a record jacket adds to the enjoyment? LOL. That reminds me of smokers trying to rationalize their addiction by saying smoking gives them something to do with their hands. Apparently, many would rather play with their music instead of listen to it. Anyway, that is fine. Whatever turns you on.

Granted, if I had a spare 20k-30k I might buy a starter table, arm, cartridge, phono pre, cables, maple plinth, brass footers, record cleaner, and a couple of records, but I will probably put that towards getting the new Magico S7 speaker.

gudnoyez

I would like to know what cartridge stylus combo that is that virtually eliminates ticks and pops on not one album but all albums, amazing to say the least.

[Deleted User]

oh you digital guys are so smug.
Wait till your power goes out.

Chops

F1nut wrote: »

Uh yeah, you're wrong on both accounts.

Ummm....no.

The cartridge not only picks up the vibration from the tip of the stylus, but also the TT plinth, the platter, the LP, and the tonearm.

All that vibration you note is not part of the recording. It's part of the playback method.

Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.

Like I said, the problem seems to be with your choice of gear as there are a great many, including myself that find digital to be anything but how you describe it.

I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.

I've heard a ton of vinyl on some very impressive set ups with cleaned to death LP's and every time there has been a pop, a click, whatever. To you, I say BS and welcome to the BOZO list.

Whatever. I'm not going to get into a stupid pissing contest, nor am I going to go into any more explanations, nor am I going to bother to explain how things work and why, nor do I need to try and prove myself to anyone, especially to you.

I've browsed around on this forum for several years and have always noticed the way you talk to people on here that you don't exactly agree with. The main reason I've always been hesitant about joining. You, yes YOU give this very forum a bad name. It's pretty bad when other forums on the internet talk (a.k.a. - complain) about you. I've heard stories about "F1nut on the Polk forum" for years. That's pretty freakin' bad. I knew it would only be a period of time before you'd start your crap with me.


Just because you've been on here for years and have a post count of well over 30k does NOT make you an expert on everything, does NOT mean that you are always correct, and certainly does NOT give you the right to to talk down to people all the time. I bet you've got a big mouth in real life, always having something to say.

And what's even worse, you have your little typical group of buddies that attempt to back you up and support your nonsense. Either that or they're just afraid that you have some pull around here to have people banned. I for one don't care one bit. I've only been on this forum for what, not even a week, and I'm beyond tired of your BS.

Remember my first post on this forum about hating arrogant people and no need for it, and that being arrogant is rude? Well guess what, you fit that same description perfectly. You were already on that BOZO list years before I came here.

Now go ahead and work up your condescending reply as to why I'm wrong and you're right, blah, blah, blah. Have fun.

sucks2beme

Not to worry. Itunes and the recording industry are planning to have
all music mastered to sound good in low bitrates coming from an
IPOD on cheap headphones. Hi-res, CD and Vinyl are all dead.
Long live crappy recordings.
Seriously, how many GOOD recordings have you heard come out in
the last few years?

Nightfall

sucks2beme wrote: »

Seriously, how many GOOD recordings have you heard come out in the last few years?

There are a lot of great sounding recordings. Some maybe don't have a ton of dynamic range, mostly if you listen to rock/metal but just because an album is a victim of the loudness wars doesn't mean it sounds bad, just maybe not as lively as it could have. That's just my opinion.

teekay0007

Chops wrote: »

I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.

And just like that....all credibility gone... Not even the most die-hard of all vinyl fans would make such a silly statement.

As tonyb has been noted to say here a time or two, "If it blows your sack back, go for it!" I agree, and I enjoy a good vinyl listening session from time-to-time, as long as someone else is doing the heavy lifting. In the same way that I can hardly stand to sit through live TV without being able to FF through the commercials, I can't even imagine myself attempting to do the whole vinyl/turntable thing. Not a chance!

11tsteve

DSkip wrote: »

I'm sure you'll be rolling in the dough if it ever happens.


If you want to hear digital done right for a reasonable price, get your ears on a Hugo someday. You might rethink investing all that time and effort into a vinyl rig.

different strokes. Sometimes I have to remember not everyone here is as affected by the rabbit hole, because $2,500-5,000 is not anywhere near reasonable to my budget.

tonyb

You guys are all just pissin' in the wind on this one. Who gives a rats behind how you enjoy your music, as long as you do. Audio is about musical enjoyment, how you get there is irrelevant.

Chops,
Chill out some man, nobody is calling your baby ugly or stealing your last Snickers bar. F1NUT, along with many here, including myself, are opinionated is all.....as you are too. Big deal if those opinions don't always match up. That's what audio forums are about, sharing experiences and opinions.

Chops

teekay0007 wrote: »

Chops wrote: »

I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.

And just like that....all credibility gone... Not even the most die-hard of all vinyl fans would make such a silly statement.

And just like that, I don't care what you think.

All of the records I have were either bought new by my father or one of my brothers. They were only played a few times, recorded to tape, then put away. Now that new tape is scarce, I can't exactly record them, nor do I need to because I have most of those tapes as well.

In essence, all of those LP's are still basically new. The few of them that "did" have some ticks or pops on them no longer do because I used the wood glue treatment on them to remove just about everything off of them, hence why NONE of my records have ticks or pops on them.

If that's too much for you to understand to the point of calling someone you don't even know a liar, then so be it. I have no earthly use for you either.

Chops

tonyb wrote: »

Who gives a rats behind how you enjoy your music, as long as you do. Audio is about musical enjoyment, how you get there is irrelevant.

Exactly. I never said that digital sucked. I just said that I prefer the sound of vinyl. I've got some very early CD's from the early 80's that actually sound almost analog. I also have CD's from last year that sound like total crap. However, vinyl seems to be a lot more of a constant in sound quality throughout the years.

tonyb wrote: »

Chops,
Chill out some man, nobody is calling your baby ugly or stealing your last Snickers bar. F1NUT, along with many here, including myself, are opinionated is all.....as you are too. Big deal if those opinions don't always match up. That's what audio forums are about, sharing experiences and opinions.

It's not about the opinions, it's about the arrogance and condescending remarks all the time. Nobody needs that tripe. It's uncalled for and I simply won't put up for it.

The thing is, that's exactly what this forum is known for on other forums across the net, and it all seems to stem from him and his poor choice of words. If you or the moderators/administrators have issues with it, then maybe you should be talking to him, not the "new guy" trying to get along.

Also, please notice that when teekay comes on here and calls me a lair, guess who comes on here later and "Likes" his post... Imagine that. Typical.

mrbiron

Christ sakes people.....go outside.....read a book.....paint a pretty picture
All threads lead to anger.

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

This forum is all about challenging your mindset In order to achieve better results. .

Well said Skip. Then again audio in general is about challenging yourself to achieve better results. Takes an open mind though and a willingness to experiment. If that journey suits you, if not and your happy where your at, rock it baby and chill.

gce

Chops wrote: »

not the "new guy" trying to get along.

And you're doing a good job at that! LOL