Let me have it....tell me I'm crazy....but I use Romex 12/2 for speaker cable

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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    tonyb wrote: »
    Those Nak cables go for under 100 bucks per 8 ft pair so I wouldn't expect a huge improvement, maybe some though over basic wire.

    So do wires have to be expensive to work?

    I would think that once the R&D is done they would be simple to reproduce and target the bottom tier of the consumer pyramid from a price point perspective. Much better to make $30 on 100,000 pairs than $300 on 1,000 pairs.

    I do need to ask the experts - what makes for a good speaker wire? Or can they be broken down into components? Ends, wire composition, winding, insulation, etc. What would be the ideal combination? What should I be shooting for?

    Okay, the Nak cables arrived today. They're nicely crafted, have Nak emblems on all 4 connectors. They could be knock-offs I guess. Anyone can buy the ends. They're thicker in the middle than at the terminals. Everything is neatly and professionally done. This is what they look like and assume, are:

    http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-c15f25.html

    So that's pair 'B'. Doug's will be 'C' or 1,2,3, - don't mean to imply any sort of grading. I'm headed out on the road for a week - it'll be a while before I actually start listening closely.

    They look really nice, so they got that going for them. :smiley:


    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    How long should I burn in new cables? Ballpark?
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    Apexpro wrote: »
    So do wires have to be expensive to work?

    No, but to work really well implies R&D, and technology. To recoup that money, and pay a living salary to the employees (assuming US based), the price for great cables wil be much more than the cost for adequate cables.

    I exclusively use Shunyata at this time since they work well, and I like that they explain the science behind their designs. Compared to other vendors, Shunyata is reasonably priced. :)

    http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/technical-feat/309-tron-technology

    http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/technical-feat/308-dtcd

    http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/technical-feat/312-faq-tech-feat

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    Coat hanger "will work" too....don't see those on your list either. If you only want to compare apples...you'll only taste apples. Have to throw an orange in there somewhere.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    BlueFox wrote: »
    Apexpro wrote: »
    Compared to other vendors, Shunyata is reasonably priced. :)

    I'm not seeing prices anywhere. I normally take that as a sign I can't afford it. ('if you have to ask.....')

    Wait - $2,250.00. Each.

    I think I'd be better off buying a used set of really nice speakers AR, B&W, KEF for half as much. I'd like to think I could afford to lay out $5000 for cables, but the sad fact is I'll never be able to buy a set of cables that cost more than my car is worth. *shrug*
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    So is cable 'burn in' a real thing or just a myth?
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,484
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    Apexpro wrote: »
    So is cable 'burn in' a real thing or just a myth?

    Only one way to find out for yourself............
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    headrott wrote: »
    Apexpro wrote: »
    So is cable 'burn in' a real thing or just a myth?

    Only one way to find out for yourself............

    I have to disagree. I think enough people know whether or not it helps and have a ballpark idea. Otherwise what's the purpose of these forums? Maybe I'm incorrect in assuming this is for a free exchange of ideas and social interaction.

    If I am wrong I'll thank all for their help thus far and will stop bothering everyone.
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,484
    edited September 2014
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    Apexpro wrote: »
    headrott wrote: »
    Apexpro wrote: »
    So is cable 'burn in' a real thing or just a myth?

    Only one way to find out for yourself............

    I have to disagree. I think enough people know whether or not it helps and have a ballpark idea. Otherwise what's the purpose of these forums? Maybe I'm incorrect in assuming this is for a free exchange of ideas and social interaction.

    If I am wrong I'll thank all for their help thus far and will stop bothering everyone.

    We can TELL you anything, but for you to believe it, it takes first-hand experience. There is no other way to believe except to experience it yourself.

    By us telling you that burn in is fact MAY help convince you to experience it yourself however, which is where forums come in handy.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
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    Apexpro wrote: »
    I need to quiet the back room down. Large heavy curtains will help a lot, I have a few dozen '24 egg' crates I could paint and put on the back wall, and maybe book cases on a side wall.

    Any suggestions about inexpensive wall covering material?
    Egg crates might work...but please don't do it. Make some better looking ones for yourself: http://acousticsfreq.com/blog/?p=62
    http://www.acoustimac.com/acoustic-insulation-materials/acoustic-insulation/owens-corning-acoustic-insulation/
    http://metrosupplycollc.com/Acoustical_Insulation.html

    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    WLDock wrote: »
    Egg crates might work...but please don't do it. Make some better looking ones for yourself:
    http://acousticsfreq.com/blog/?p=62
    http://www.acoustimac.com/acoustic-insulation-materials/acoustic-insulation/owens-corning-acoustic-insulation/
    http://metrosupplycollc.com/Acoustical_Insulation.html

    Thank God I don't have to do the eggcrates. Thanks for the tips! I'll have to get the lady friend to do some fabric shopping for me.
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • Speedskater
    Speedskater Posts: 495
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    No, egg crates didn't work way back then and they won't work now! They were only effective in a narrow frequency band, which is not what you want.
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    I'll keep using them for what God intended. Trays for reloading pistol ammo. ;)
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    Hey! The smiley face worked.
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • Msabot1
    Msabot1 Posts: 2,098
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    Depends on the room you were going to use the set up in....A main room in your home I would not suggest using those....a basement studio or such would be different...that fiber material that those are pressed out of and the pattern lends itself to very good sound baffling....
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
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    Also, if you have bass issues don't for get bass traps.

    I plan to make some of these myself at some point.
    http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/traps/traps.html
    http://www.amerisafe.net/en/insulation-products/pipe-insulation
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    WLDock wrote: »
    Also, if you have bass issues don't for get bass traps.

    Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that?!
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 16,906
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    WLDock wrote: »
    Also, if you have bass issues don't for get bass traps.

    I plan to make some of these myself at some point.
    http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/traps/traps.html
    http://www.amerisafe.net/en/insulation-products/pipe-insulation

    Thanks for the links...

    I'm in...

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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    Interim report:

    I started with 16AWG O2 free stranded speaker wire as the baseline and listened to a variety of music from Jeff Beck to Bach. I used Bose 901s as the first speaker and then switched to SDA 2s and repeated the same CDs. I'm only using CDs for this test.

    After establishing the baseline I switched to Nakamachi cables. Some have said these aren't much better than the 16AWG O2 free cables and so far I have to agree. I haven't been able to tell any difference using the 901s. I'll be switching to the Polks this weekend to complete phase II.

    I received my cables from Doug yesterday and can't wait to get through with phase II and on to phase III. Doug's cables have silver connectors and are masterfully crafted. I can feel a difference in heft and have to believe they'll carry a better load and with the silver connectors make a better connection. It's hard to look at them and not immediately hook them up, but I need to be methodical about the process.

    Stay tuned.
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,640
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    One thing that I am glad to see is that, it appears, you are keeping an open mind. And that is all we ever ask.
    If you listen to several different cable options and come back and state that you really didn't hear any difference, nobody is going to chastise you because at least you tried it out for yourself.
    The people "we" have problems with are those who come to the table with closed minds and no desire to try and see for themselves.

    It's your ears. I know what I have heard and where I have heard differences but because my ears are different than yours, my listening environment is different than yours and my gear is different than yours...well, nobody can tell you...you just have to knock on the sky and listen for the sound yourself.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    For now I'll stick with the $20 dollar 16AWG O2-free with gold plated bananas, the used $70 Naks, and Doug's $250 set of twin 14AWG Canare cables with silver coated connects.

    If I can tell a difference with Doug's cables I'll consider others, but I want to finish this 3 wire test first.
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    The problem with this test as I see it, is you picked 3 different cables all similar, all roughly in the same price tier, so I would expect your results to be minute as well with the Canare holding an edge above the other 2.

    If your going to do a test, and the goal of that test is to decipher if you can hear a difference, then you need 3 different cables, different price catagories, different build/design...different sound signatures.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • Apexpro
    Apexpro Posts: 97
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    If someone will lend me cables I'll definitely try different price points, but I don't have the means to spend $1,000 on a test.

    I sense I'm already being dismissed before I even finish my tests.
    - Please don't clean up my mess. You'll only confuse me.

    APC 1500, Furman Rack Rider, Cambridge Audio Dac Magic Plus, Parasound P/HP 850, Adcom GTP-880, Luxman M-300, Threshold 400A Cascode, McIntosh MC2505, MC2205, MR-71, MX-113, Sony TA-3200F, Tascam 112 MKII, Sony TC-D5 Pro, Tascam CD-200, Thorens TD-147, Kenwood KT-5500, Kenwood KT-7500, Realistic Minimus Sevens, Behringer MS40s, Boston Acoustics A40s, JBL 830Ts, 'Double' Advent Loudspeakers, Klipsch KSW12 sub, Bose 901s, Polk SDA 2s, Polk SDA 1Cs
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    Apexpro wrote: »
    If someone will lend me cables I'll definitely try different price points, but I don't have the means to spend $1,000 on a test.

    I sense I'm already being dismissed before I even finish my tests.

    Not dismissing....just suggesting you could have done better in your core selections. There's an awful lot of real estate in cables between what you have and your suggested 1000 buck cables....especially on the used market.

    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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