Let me have it....tell me I'm crazy....but I use Romex 12/2 for speaker cable

tonyb

Well, the OP did say to "let him have it".....so we feel compelled to oblige.

Your crazy....there, done.

Apexpro

tonyb wrote: »

Well, the OP did say to "let him have it".....so we feel compelled to oblige.

Your crazy....there, done.

Ok, I'm crazy, daft, probably ignorant and idiotic too right? But I've still heard nothing but opinions. Here's the first thing the Google found:

http://stereos.about.com/od/accessoriesheadphones/a/Do-Speaker-Cables-Make-A-Difference-Science-Weighs-In.htm

Does cabling make a difference? It *can* be measured. Can we tell a difference? A firm 'maybe'. Anything else out there I should read?

tonyb

Your problem is asking about things to read instead of just going out and doing. You can read about how to build a house all day long, but until you experience it, what you read means diddly.

Audio is simply "just opinions", trick is....taking advice from those with experience or from those without. You decide....

nspindel

Only thing that counts is what your ears tell you.

Speedskater

The John F. Allen paper about using Romex® as theater speaker cable.

www.hps4000.com/pages/spksamps/speaker_wire.pdf

HPS 4000 - High Performance Stereo

http://www.hps4000.com/

tonyb

Like I said, you can read all day long articles on the internet, both for or against pretty much anything. Put your big boy panties on and just go experience stuff for yourself instead of trying to justify why you won't.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of one person...not one...who took our advice here and wasn't happy with the results, or at the very least gained something in their audio journey.

nspindel

tonyb wrote: »

Off the top of my head, I can't think of one person...not one...who took our advice here and wasn't happy with the results, or at the very least gained something in their audio journey.

Yeah but that's just because we're all a bunch of psychoacoustical neanderthals!

Apexpro

I'll be trying squared Audiophile HI-FI Nakamichi Speaker Cable first. With gold-plated banana plugs and spade connectors. These: http://www.nakamichiplug.com/product-cable.html

Apexpro

I'll be testing cables on my second system primarily bcos I can use 2.5M cables. I'd need 20' cables to test on my primary system and that could be a huge investment.

I recall reading of a cable place that would rent cables, or something like that, so I could try multiple sets without committing to a major purchase before I determine if they complement my system. Any idea who may do that?

WLDock

http://www.thecableco.com/ has a cable trial program.

IMO, if you heard an improvement using Romex than why not test it against other cables? There are some high end cabled that use solid wire and are large, heavy, and not easy to work with.

Also, No one should knock your findings if they have not listened to Romex in YOUR system against other cables. Many belive in "Synergy" and the subjective nature regarding cables, sound, etc. Who knows if Romex sounds better than the average $1-$3 a ft stranded cable or $1K cable unless they get their ears on it. However, I'm sure every type of wire on the planet has been tested a million times over for audio use. So, there are other....

To say this is not to dismiss the high end market but to cut the B.S. thinking of "Because ir cost more, it MUST sound better" Most times you get what you pay for but sometimes not.

pitdogg2

Hermitism wrote: »

Since we're on the subject of cables, what is it exactly about clear coat wire that is so bad? Does the clear coat crack over time allowing oxygen to get to the copper? Can oxygen penetrate the material used in the clear coat? Or does it not make a good seal around the wire allowing oxygen to get in from the ends? Or is it just the grade of copper used in them? Or the strands?

I do not know for sure Herm but it happens. I have had Parts Express 10ga. for going on 10yrs and it NEVER showed any signs of the green goo, but lo and behold over the last week I noticed some distortion in my rears and when i went to check out the cable I seen some areas that are just nasty slimy brown. It must be something in the extruded plastic they use that either comes out of the jacket or allows something in. (air) I had noticed it on cheaper wire before closer to the ends so I started sealing all with shrink tubing...didn't help. I will now buy me some Canare 4s11 as my runs are more than 20'+ times 3.

Apexpro

WLDock wrote: »

http://www.thecableco.com/ has a cable trial program.

IMO, if you heard an improvement using Romex than why not test it against other cables?

Also, No one should knock your findings if they have not listened to Romex in YOUR system against other cables.

Thanks, that must be who I was thinking about.

I've already made steps to start my testing program by purchasing a used set of Nakamichi cables w/ gold-plated connectors. And I'll be making two additional sets, one with Supra Rondo and one with 14 gauge 4-Conductor stranded oxygen free wire with the two sets of wires joined together at the gold-plated connectors.

I also have the advantage of being able to borrow a set of young ears (21 year old son) the next time he's home to help me do blind tests. If both our ears can hear a difference I'm going to assume it is, indeed, a difference. If we can tell a difference then I'll step up and make an investment in speaker cables.

tonyb

You can banter back and forth all day about if cables matter, just go find out for yourself.

Cables are a piece of gear, a part of your system not to be taken lightly. Spend as much, give as much thought into your cables as you would your CDP, pre amp, BRP, Digital music server, or any other piece. People tend to think of cables as just cables...last thought, least amount of money to be spent. Then they start blaming every other piece in their system as to why it doesn't sound good.

Apexpro

nbrowser wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

I will state that even I subscribe to the "cable burn in" theory, as the days and listening sessions go on the sound becomes better, the soundstage more pronounced and wider and even on day 1, the noise floor was lowered immensely when I swapped the interconnects. Just give it time it'll be worth it.

What happens during 'cable burn in' ? I'm not sure I understand how wires 'burn in' merely by passing a signal through them. I don't think there could be any physical changes unless the signal strength is high enough to cause excessive heat - assuming the cables do not corrode or oxidize. I can't think of any positive changes that could take place. Maybe I'm not clear on what you mean.

tonyb

Put "cable burn in" in the search feature, top right of the home page.

Apexpro

"The signal apparently gets imbedded in the surrounding insulator & then bounces back to the wire. It's not until the insulator gets saturated (burn in time) that things get smoothed out to some degree. At least that's my short version of what happens."

A Google search only came up with formulas for oxidation saturation, but since most high end cables are O2 free I don't see how that's applicable.

I can't wrap my head around how an insulator could become saturated with a signal. What does the insulator supposedly get saturated with? Electrons?

WilliamM2

Apexpro wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around how an insulator could become saturated with a signal. What does the insulator supposedly get saturated with? Electrons?

You need to use your imagination. Don't let facts get in the way.

ZLTFUL

Dielectric conditioning is fact. Not fiction. Don't let William's imagination get in the way of fact.

ieee.org has about 8560029934785 articles on the subject.

http://bit.ly/1nylWeZ

Apexpro

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Dielectric conditioning is fact. Not fiction. Don't let William's imagination get in the way of fact.

Ok, you got me on the "Let me Google that for you dumba**" (I thought that went away in the last century) - but the articles you pointed me too have nothing to do with O2 free cables. They're all about semiconductors/capacitors/laser induced damage in optical materials.

Is that your way of saying, "I'm smarter than you so believe me." or is there nothing to support your dismissive claim?

Apexpro

Will dielectric absorption can be measured in cables with a very high impedance voltmeter, I see no evidence that it's reduced over time by 'burning in' cables.

However, dielectric absorption in capacitors and semiconductors does seem to level out after a burn-in period. So while I can see the benefits of burning in preamps/amps/speakers/etc. I still see no evidence that 'burning in' cables has any affect.

WilliamM2

Apexpro wrote: »

Is that your way of saying, "I'm smarter than you so believe me." or is there nothing to support your dismissive claim?

Now you got it!

ZLTFUL

Well, I would link you to DarqueKnight's threads on the measured differences of his cables but the scope images that show the differences between fresh out of the box cables and "burned in" cables aren't available in this abysmal version of the forum.

Not dismissive in any way but you can Google just as easily as I can. You can also find posts all over the internet with numbers and scope images to back them up both backing up the claim that burn in does make a difference and that burn in doesn't make a difference.

Frankly, my dismissive portion of my post is this...You seem to be a troll. You don't want to do the leg work to find out whether or not there is a difference. You want to try and start a rancid debate that has been regurgitated here on this forum and elsewhere on the web ad nauseum. And frankly, it is an old and annoyingly stale debate.
One thing you notice is that it is only ever the "detractors" who say it does not make a difference and that the proponents are suffering from delusions. While the proponents simply argue that if you don't hear a difference, so be it. They don't try to force the vomit spewed back down your throat like the detractors do.

My ears are different from yours. I can hear higher/lower notes than you or vice versa. I can pick out nuances in a musical passage that you may miss and vice versa. To say that I am wrong because I hear something you can't is asinine at best.

ZLTFUL

Oh look...William spouting vomit because my opinion doesn't match his. Gee...I am surprised. (Apex, you would do well for yourself to no associate yourself with someone like William. If you check out his forum posts, 95% of them are simple "I don't agree with that big fat doodie head so I am going to react like a 5 year old who had his cookie taken away." replies. But no need to take my word for it. His posts speak for themselves.)

WilliamM2

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Oh look...William spouting vomit because my opinion doesn't match his. Gee...I am surprised. (Apex, you would do well for yourself to no associate yourself with someone like William. If you check out his forum posts, 95% of them are simple "I don't agree with that big fat doodie head so I am going to react like a 5 year old who had his cookie taken away." replies. But no need to take my word for it. His posts speak for themselves.)

Of course you can't back that up either.

Apex, you would do well for yourself to not associate yourself with someone like ZLTFUL, all he does is hurl insults at those that don't agree with his opinion. The less he can back up what he says, the more insulting he will get.

Apexpro

WilliamM2 wrote: »

ZLTFUL wrote: »

...all he does is hurl insults at those that don't agree with his opinion. The less he can back up what he says, the more insulting he will get.

I've seen a number of people who react that way. Accusing others of poor behavior. I've looked and read for years on these topics and after a couple of decades the debate rages on. That tells me there is no definite answer. If it could be proved empirically there would be evidence to support it. I've been unable to find that evidence so I'm going to try some new cables and see if my ears and a pair of 21 year old ears can hear a difference.

And insults just roll off my back, so no worries; I'm doing this for my listening pleasure and intellectual curiosity - not to make Internet friends. ;-}

Apexpro

DSkip wrote: »

How many people do you see convert from non-believer to believer? Now, how many do you see convert from believer to non-believer?

Perhaps your ratio is such because non-believers question when believers do not.

In my personal case I've stated about 1,000 times I'm in the process of revisiting the analysis by auditioning new speaker cables with my ears and my son's 21 year old ears (when he comes home). I've exhausted my search for empirical evidence so I'm putting my money where my mouth is and ponying up for three sets of new cables....for now.

And we'll see what the future holds, for me anyway. If I can tell even the slightest difference I may make that $1,000 investment in new cables. But if I can't hear a difference it matters not what you hear. Unless you want to send me a set of those $1,000 cables to audition.

Fair enough?

BlueFox

Apexpro wrote: »

Perhaps your ratio is such because non-believers question when believers do not.

People are not born, or indoctrinated, into believing cables make a difference. They start out like everyone else, and are skeptical about the concept. However, they read, talk, listen, and generally do their homework. As they buy better gear they try a better cable than lamp cord, or Radio Shack interconnects, and it turns out the new cable does sound better. Some stop there, and others take it a bit further, and tweak the Hades out of their system with cables (power, signal, speaker), along with power upgrades, and all the while, just loving the improvements in sound.

Yet the whole time they are experiencing the benefits of better cables and power, there are those who try nothing and constantly harp how these improvements are all imaginary, and others are just delusional.

WilliamM2

DSkip wrote: »

The differences I speak of are slap you in the face obvious. It's why I'm always baffled by 'nonbelievers'. I understand that I have a very revealing system, but these should be audible on any rig. I'm not criticizing anyone for not hearing them, I just don't understand how they aren't obvious.

Slap in the face obvious? Yet there is no evidence...sounds reasonable to me.

Apexpro

BlueFox wrote: »

... tweak the Hades out of their system with cables (power, signal, speaker), along with power upgrades, and all the while, just loving the improvements in sound.

$900 power cables baffle me too. All the power wire coming into the house is Romex...how can the last three feet make a difference?

I use a big-a** UPS as a power conditioner and surge protection, but it's only slightly better than what comes out of the outlet - which is Romex. If you haven't guessed by now I question everything....because that's what I was taught growing up in the '60s and 70s. LOL

tonyb

Apexpro wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

Perhaps your ratio is such because non-believers question when believers do not.

See now, right there is the Crux of the matter. Instead of questioning, you should be doing, experiencing. Trying 3 different brands of 50 buck cables isn't a great test either.

As long as your willing to try different cables, that's a great first step. Just make them some sort of quality cable. Comparing Monster, Belden, Monoprice won't get you much in the way of differences.

Cables....you have to kiss a few frogs to find your Prince. Not every one will benefit, some may even sound worse. The fun is in the experimentation, until you find that synergy appealing to your ears.

....and you don't have to spend 1000 bucks to get good cables.