Your Experience with "Larry's Rings"

intangible

heiney9 wrote: »

All you guys wanting answers beyond the ones given here, which are reasonable and fairly simple as well as common sense, take a physics class or use Google to get your learn on. The fact is it works and it's because the baskets are better coupled to the baffle. If you want to know the science behind it, put some effort into it and get your learn on.

See, this is the issue here. I understand Newtonian physics well enough to know that making a definitive statement like "the baskets are better coupled to the baffle" is probably beyond the capabilities of anyone here. I would be pleasantly surprised if someone actually had the data, but, as I said, surprised. You, and a large number of other individuals, appear to have no such issue making blanket statements. If you really understand the system well enough to know that the above statement is true, then you should have no issue explaining why, but, just like when you told me that spikes somehow decouple the speaker from the floor above, your statement comes with zero explanation and a side of condescension.

audiocr381ve

Apparently some of you have selective reading. You guys throw equal insults in the form of cynism and sarcasm but get your panties in a bunch when the word "idiot" is used. I've been called deaf in this thread (of course indirectly like a coward would do), a troll (I'm the OP for cryin' out loud and have spent my hard earned money on a product to review for the public).

Here's a classic from this thread.

Keiko wrote: »

Forget him, Greg. If you've read past posts from this boy, you realize he doesn't and/or wouldn't know good sound if it came up and bit him on the arse.

This from literally the biggest joke at CP. His private messages are a must read. Especially the one where he calls me a "bit$@"

I really don't give a damn and am more concerned about getting a bowl of cereal than I am with dealing with some of you.

heiney9

I don't have to explain anything to you or anyone else. I know it works because I can hear that it works. If you or anyone else wants the science behind it, knock yourself out. I'm here to relay my experiences (my own personal experiences) nothing more, nothing less. If you can't trust your ears or you can't hear an improvement, say so, and move on, and sell the rings.

I am not going to justify anything to you. You decide on your own. Me going through a scientific explanation isn't going to persuade or dissuade you in any way shape or form. You've had your own experiences (different than most) and no amount of science is likely to change your mind. Why would I bother with the effort for your sake? I have my answer and it's a great answer.

Good luck

H9

audiocr381ve

nooshinjohn wrote: »

audiocr381ve...

The name calling is over the top, and only diminishes any credibility you had in my book. Welcome to the IL.

Okay Mr. Sensitive. I'm going to lie and say that I care.

At the end of the day, I spent money on a product, gave a review, and my final thoughts are positive. I'd definitely buy them again for peace of mind and are a must for keeping these things in good shape for years to come. If you're on the fence about Larry's rings, don't be. Installation was a problem for me because the product was not a direct fit in my case and needed modification and that is the only issue I had with them. I didn't experience a "dramatic and sensational" improvement at all. But apparently I did something wrong or I'm deaf.

Period!

heiney9

intangible wrote: »

but, just like when you told me that spikes somehow decouple the speaker from the floor above, your statement comes with zero explanation and a side of condescension.

If you can't grasp this you are either a troll or really dense.

Spikes de-couple the speakers from the floor as in seperate, or isolate the bottom plane of the speaker cabinet from the plane of the floor. They make it less likely for the cabinet structure to become part of the floor and vibrate sympathetically. It usually adds some clarity and the bass can be more "true" to the recording because the floor resonates less because the 2 planes are no longer connected directly on top of one another but by 4 small points of the spikes. Less energy from the cabinet is released "into" the floor, resulting in improvements in overall clarity and bass response. Of course how much this varies depends on the speaker, type of floor and other furnishings in the room, etc.

But then again being so well versed in Physics as you have stated, you already knew this.

H9

intangible

heiney9 wrote: »

I don't have to explain anything to you or anyone else. I know it works because I can hear that it works. If you or anyone else wants the science behind it, knock yourself out. I'm here to relay my experiences (my own personal experiences) nothing more, nothing less. If you can't trust your ears or you can't hear an improvement, say so, and move on, and sell the rings.

I am not going to justify anything to you. You decide on your own. Me going through a scientific explanation isn't going to persuade or dissuade you in any way shape or form. You've had your own experiences (different than most) and no amount of science is likely to change your mind. Why would I bother with the effort for your sake? I have my answer and it's a great answer.

Good luck

H9

If you want to go around correcting posts on how things such as the rings and spikes physically function, then you do need to be able to explain yourself. If you are happy just knowing that you hear an improvement, that is fine with me, your posts just need to reflect that. You hearing an improvement means that you heard an improvement, not that how you envision the physics of the system working is correct.

intangible

Do you actually want to discuss how spikes work? I've put some thought into it, and I think it is an interesting system to look at, but if you don't want to have the conversation, I do not want to waste my time typing it up.

nooshinjohn

Try this one on for size. DK sums it up nicely.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?103241-Steel-Retaining-Rings-For-SDA-Drivers-And-Passive-Radiators&p=1368266

heiney9

intangible wrote: »

If you want to go around correcting posts on how things such as the rings and spikes physically function, then you do need to be able to explain yourself. If you are happy just knowing that you hear an improvement, that is fine with me, your posts just need to reflect that. You hearing an improvement means that you heard an improvement, not that how you envision the physics of the system working is correct.

I don't HAVE to explain myself or my experiences to anyone, and especially you. I am not here to prove to you or anyone else these things work, I'm here to relay my experiences.

H9

heiney9

intangible wrote: »

Do you actually want to discuss how spikes work? I've put some thought into it, and I think it is an interesting system to look at, but if you don't want to have the conversation, I do not want to waste my time typing it up.

Please don't waste my time by typing it up. At this point with your attitude I could care less what you have to say. You're credibility is ruined in my eyes so don;t bother.

H9

audiocr381ve

intangible wrote: »

If you want to go around correcting posts on how things such as the rings and spikes physically function, then you do need to be able to explain yourself. If you are happy just knowing that you hear an improvement, that is fine with me, your posts just need to reflect that. You hearing an improvement means that you heard an improvement, not that how you envision the physics of the system working is correct.

Some guys tweak systems like old classic cars. And that's just fine. It's okay if they feel better performance (that 99% of most humans won't be able to discern BTW. I'm one of these guys most of the time). To them, or us, the change is so substantial that they're willing to defend it to the death. Pull their wife into the room and ask her if she heard anything different and watch her try, get frustrated that you keep asking if she heard anything, explain that she doesn't, and walk out upset that you brought her into the debate.

BTW, these are the last people on earth you'd want working on a space shuttle. They would put dynamat extreme on a vibrating wing!

intangible

Great, so I will ask you the same thing I asked f1nut. If the best explanation for a phenomenon you have is, "My speakers sound better, and I'm pretty sure it works this way," then please do not try to correct my posts on such subjects. I don't mind being corrected if I can learn something from it, but if the person correcting me does not understand the system well enough to explain why I am wrong and has no interest in an analytical discussion of it, their thoughts on the matter are worthless in that regard.

audiocr381ve

intangible wrote: »

Great, so I will ask you the same thing I asked f1nut. If the best explanation for a phenomenon you have is, "My speakers sound better, and I'm pretty sure it works this way," then please do not try to correct my posts on such subjects. I don't mind being corrected if I can learn something from it, but if the person correcting me does not understand the system well enough to explain why I am wrong and has no interest in an analytical discussion of it, their thoughts on the matter are worthless in that regard.

The carousel goes round and round doesn't it?

Toolfan66

Yawwwwn!!!!!!! Give it a rest would you??

Boy will I be more selective from now on...

george daniel

BTW, these are the last people on earth you'd want working on a space shuttle. They would put dynamat extreme on a vibrating wing![/QUOTE]

I think Dynamat Extreme would be overkill,,, maybe the Original :razz:

sda2mike

george daniel wrote: »

BTW, these are the last people on earth you'd want working on a space shuttle. They would put dynamat extreme on a vibrating wing!

I think Dynamat Extreme would be overkill,,, maybe the Original :razz:[/QUOTE]

i'd tint the windows, yo

Toolfan66

Spinners would look awesome from space...

Toolfan66

Lets not forget some 32" subwoofers as well.. The space shuttle would bounce!!!!

sda2mike

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

Spinners would look awesome from space...

Ha! yeah! a worthwhile experiment would be to test out those 14000 watt boom boom stereos...in space! what effects would they have? did they install larry's rings? is the bass tighter in zero gravity?

george daniel

ah !!!,,Spinners.

nooshinjohn

One thing's for sure... We would still be flying Shuttles if the boys at Pimp my Ride did their thing. I bet they would have replaced all those ugly heat tiles with plasma tv's from Pioneer Elite! Open up the cargo bay doors to reveal the first Disco Lounge in space, complete with the mirrored "Death-Star" disco ball floating above a DJ booth on the remote arm. The "moonwalk' would have been given new life. What a wasted oportunity...

evhudsons

The shuttle has some cool hydraulics and a spoiler, but they removed the neon lights when it used up too much of the gel battery juice. Yeah, subs in space!

Please don't let some Knowitall spoil our space sub fun.

This slime slinging reminds me of when I was speeding once :rolleyes: and elected to take a driving course designed to slow you down in the future. They showed a movie where Goofy gets behind a wheel and goes mad, flipping everyone off, laying in the horn, but when he got out of the car he went back to normal goofy. So whenever I read these off flavor remarks I envision goofy giving the finger while backing over granny.

Thanks for the link to Darqueknight's rings thread, that got the topic back on track. I would actually like to know what makes these mods work even if someone doesn't go into grand physics. there is usually enough information and explanation to get started. I've used Wikipedia for instance to research many of the topics threaded on this forum, including what SDA really is. I don't expect everyone to stop what they are doing to either convince me or update me on things I can learn for myself. We all have some sort of life I imagine, work, making beer, designing speakers, fishing, taking out the garbage, etc so I don't expect grand explanations, especially from guys who have been here a long time who have probably explained this many times over. And if they don't fully know why, then you can do your own explanation, fine with me. A debate is healthy, it can give more information to all sides, but hurling nonsense is not doing me any good. A simple explanation is good enough for me to start forming my own opinion. I'm sure the head mechanic at a a Nascar pit wouldn't have to go into extreme details to tell you why a particular tire, tool or part gives such good performance, the entire field and sport already knows it.

One thing I would like to add here, being educated about something will allow you to see and understand something in a new way that otherwise you would be completely unaware. If you were born on an island without music, then what would you get by going to a concert hall symphony or rock concert, and how could we take you seriously by saying we are imagining this wonderful great sound? Why would we have to explain the nature of reed vibrations, horn shapes, air pressure, metals, lubrication, and medical aspects of the lung. I'm not a Nascar fan but that is probably due to the fact I know next to nothing about it. I do know football and basketball, all the ins, outs, strategies, aspects so it is far more interesting and I can see a lot more going on than someone who doesn't know what all is happening. They only see a bunch of guys fighting over a ball.

We are all here to some degree because we are looking for more than just an AM clock radio setup for audio. I'm not going to knock a guy who can only afford a clock radio, or someone who is happy with just a clock radio, but I want more and I enjoy getting more from sharing among other people with the same love of quality sound and the search thereof.


I am by nature something of a skeptic. If a claim of improvement is made I don't deny that something of change is there I'm sure it is, but I have to weigh how much a difference is there to warrant big changes. Every mod here has not only been noticeable, it's been shocking in how much the quality of sound is improving from these 20 year old speakers. I've had these things a loooooong time, and I know how they sounded for a looooong time. I listen to the same spectrum of music, and I do upgrade my electronics, but I always have. These are not weak subjective observations by a cult club Polk forum junkie but they are observations by intelligent people not only in this forum but in every audio circle around the world. To someone who is not wanting to hear them, or is not impressed by them fine with me, but that doesn't make my observations any less real or less relevant. Some people could care less if the music is mono or stereo and don't pay much attention to notice the difference. I've met folks like that and I'm pretty sure I could wire them up mono to a surround sound and they wouldn't know the difference. I think I'm among peers in that there is no way you could sneak that up in our house without major timeouts to figure out what's wrong.

I actually would like to hear more about the physics of not how and why the rings work and also the spikes. I still don't fully understand the spikes despite the detailed explanations, but they most certainly do work.

This is actually IMHO a valid thread for reviewing the rings. It brings to light that there is some work to be done when installing rings and that it has to be done correctly. It also shows that the lack of noticeable difference is most likely an indication something gone wrong whether it be the rings or some other dynamic. Before this thread I thought the main reason for the rings was to not have loose screws :eek: and to make sure the drivers are sealed tightly. For that it was a little lower on my list but I kept reading rave reviews across the board, and now it makes sense from the phase and vibration aspect. The spikes surprised me, and I don't doubt the rings too.

About the wife comment: I like to let my wife know that I am working on my speakers but she doesn't know what or when. She hears the differences herself. She doesn't need to know why, but she lets me explain after she notices anyway. She thinks I have a new hobby but really it's a new approach on an old hobby. She had a stress headache on Saturday and I had some Pink Floyd already on. She laid down and asked me to turn it up, turn it up, and commenting "the speakers just sound so good!" She wasn't saying that for my benefit, but I'm saying it to ya'll now for your benefit. Everyone here has helped so much, and I appreciate the fact you take beatings from people sometimes and show grace, respect and still continue to share good information even if it is falling on goofy's face.

headrott

Thank you Everett for reasonable responses.

I remember that Goofy cartoon. Haven't seen it in a while.

Greg

inspiredsports

intangible / streamer / juju / jcandy or whomever you are:

You seem to have a semi-analyitical mind.

Have you given any thought to the modulus of elasticity of the baffle complex before (particle board/mdf + driver) and modulus of elasticity the baffle complex after (steel ring + particle board/mdf + driver) and how that might affect the span between screws/bolts?

DarqueKnight

As was previously mentioned, my experience with Larry's rings was discussed here.

Also, as was previously mentioned, the results obtained from any tweak will depend on a number of factors such as equipment resolution, the room, and the hearing sensitivity of the listener. Hearing sensitivity not only refers to how well one can hear, but also refers to how important certain audio attributes are. If a performance difference occurs in an area that a listener is not sensitive to, the difference practically does not exist for that listener.

One other thing I would add is that the content of musical selections must be considered. I recall that when I first bought some RD0198 silk dome tweeters, I heard none of the initial "grain" that other forum members complained of. However, I was listening to instrumental jazz. It was not until I played a selection with female vocals that I heard the grain, a slight vocal raspiness, that I knew hadn't been there before. The grain went away after the tweeters were broken in over the 50 hour break in period.

With regard to the purpose of spikes, one of the best references I can provide is an excerpt from the 1.2TL owner's manual which states:

"Low bass response can be enhanced in impact and definition by use of either the included Bass Brace or spikes. The purpose of these accessories is to couple the speaker to either the wall or thickly carpeted floor more securely to minimize the potential of low frequency energy being affected by cabinet movement."

A copy of the excerpt is attached below.

Thoughtful speaker designers put a lot of effort into making cabinets as stable as possible. Ideally, the only things that would move, or vibrate, would be the drivers. Vibrations from the cabinets and driver baskets can color the sound.

Metal driver rings have been used by several speaker manufacturers to provide a tighter coupling between the driver and cabinet. Here are three examples to consider:

Daniel Hertz uses stainless steel rings around the drivers of their $100,000 M1 speaker:

"Daniel Hertz loudspeakers have proprietary stainless steel frames around each driver. These frames are not merely cosmetic. They make substantial contributions to the unique lifelike Daniel Hertz sound. The edges of the frame for the high frequency horn are shaped to optimize waveform termination and imaging quality. This piece is extremely complex and difficult to make and polish. The stainless steel rings on the Daniel Hertz 12? and 18? woofers are likewise important as they reinforce the rigidity of the drivers."

Swedish car audio company DLS makes the following claim about their steel ring kit for car door drivers:

"For a more stable installation of 6.5" speakers in the door side. A more stable mounting improves the mid bass."

In the attached review (top of page 11), Canadian speaker manufacturer Gemme Audio discusses the optional brass driver ring on their Concerti 108 speaker.

"The brass ring is a factory option. When we first introduced the Concerti, retail price was $4,700US (we thought the price was right because it was in the Cain & Cain bracket for a similar speaker, the IM-BEN with 108 driver). Stephen Monte from NAT Distribution, our US distributor, thought the American market would not be receptive to such a small speaker at that price so we had to cut costs somewhere to get the retail to $3,700.

There was no way we could drop the price without changing the basic design of a perfectly smooth horn path. So the ring had to go along with profit. But ring removal had to be compensated for with a beefier baffle board. So the baffle was redesigned using a full 1-inch plate (the suspended plate was 5/8th of an inch). There was no adverse effect on the sound and the ring is still offered as an option. That's why the new base-level Concerti doesn't have the ring."

Those of you interested in technical data pertaining to audible and measurable driver ring benefits may want to contact one of the companies cited above.

F1nut

Great, so I will ask you the same thing I asked f1nut. If the best explanation for a phenomenon you have is, "My speakers sound better, and I'm pretty sure it works this way,"

Wrong again, which comes as no surprise. I gave you the reason they work because I know how they work. Don't get mad at me because it's a concept you simply cannot grasp.

One other comment from me to you, welcome to my BOZO list.

intangible

inspiredsports wrote: »

intangible / streamer / juju / jcandy or whomever you are:

You seem to have a semi-analyitical mind.

Have you given any thought to the modulus of elasticity of the baffle complex before (particle board/mdf + driver) and modulus of elasticity the baffle complex after (steel ring + particle board/mdf + driver) and how that might affect the span between screws/bolts?

Sure, I have thought about that, but just like the argument that everyone else wants to make, without numbers there is no way to determine whether it is an issue, and that is a far more complex phenomenon to model.


DarqueKnight, I appreciate your input, as you appear both sensible and well-informed. From the passages you cited, it would appear that such rings can be a necessary improvement over standard baffle mounting in some cases and in some cases, such as the Concerti speakers, can prove unnecessary. Contacting those companies would likely be a good avenue for getting some actual data, but I am less interested in data than in getting those insulting me to recognize that their understanding of the system is not as ironclad as they think it is and thus more diplomatic words would be appropriate. Recognizing that the system is complex enough to require data for a proper understanding is just a step down that path. Judging by the post preceding mine, that is not going to happen.

Toolfan66

intangible wrote: »

but I am less interested in data than in getting those insulting me to recognize that their understanding of the system is not as ironclad as they think it is and thus more diplomatic words would be appropriate.

Why?? Why is this so important to you that your putting so much energy into this?? Really just relax everyone is and will have their own opinions.

nooshinjohn

intangible wrote: »

....but I am less interested in data than in getting those insulting me to recognize that I am always right. Data, and those hearing benefits from Larry's work are irrelevant and inconveniant to my agenda, which is to be the greatest troll the world has ever known!

Editted for clarification of the OP's statement. Maybe now those of us that are not as smart as he is can understand as well.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

headrott

intangible wrote: »

Sure, I have thought about that, but just like the argument that everyone else wants to make, without numbers there is no way to determine whether it is an issue, and that is a far more complex phenomenon to model.

Actually, it is you that has decided that numerical data is the answer to whether the rings actually work or not. No one else has made that argument. I (and the 40+ others) don't need a number to tell us what our ears hear.

intangible wrote: »

..........Contacting those companies would likely be a good avenue for getting some actual data, but I am less interested in data than in getting those insulting me to recognize that their understanding of the system is not as ironclad as they think it is and thus more diplomatic words would be appropriate. Recognizing that the system is complex enough to require data for a proper understanding is just a step down that path. Judging by the post preceding mine, that is not going to happen.

Who is insulting you? Perhaps you took it as a personal attack. What I hear from installing the rings to the 3 sets of SDA's I own makes what the rings do as ironclad as the rings coupling the drivers to the speaker baffles; most excellent.

It seems you have an agenda to get those people who can hear a difference after the rings are installed to recognize that data is the real proof of what we are hearing. I would argue that is horse pucky. It may be different if only one person out of all the people who have bought Larry's rings heard a difference in sound coming from their speakers. As Jesse brought up though, that is not the case. There are more that 40 people who have heard a difference. How's that for some data? Are you trying to tell over 40 people that they are delusional unless there is data to back up the claims they hear an improvement after installing Larry's rings? Consider that if you will please.

Greg