So the question is , How can a HDMI cable make a sonic Improvement?

mantis

Ok Ok Ok ,
I was talking to the Audioquest rep awhile back on the New version of HDMi cables they released. They have some stupid or cool names depending on how you look at it like Forest , Pearl , Cinnamon etc . He said " these are the best sounding HDMI cables we ever built". Ok I know Audioquest makes arguably the best cables on the market but come on I have been down this road before with Optical and Coax , then when HDMI came out , we (my Tweeter boys) did a killer shootout with all HDMI cables including some very high end Audioquest and Monstercable. No body really could see or hear any difference on the better made cables.

Ok so a new order of Cinnamon's came in and I read the box and noticed 1.25 silver. Ok Silver huh for the sheer hell of it I will give it a shot between my Cambridge Audio 650BD and the Mighty Elite SC-07.

Now also in this order we got was some new subwoofer cable I ordered as I wanted to make comparison's between ITA 1.1 and HD6G 1.25 silver. So I removed my ITA 1.1 which are mated with Silver Sonic 14-2 Speaker wire which I absolutely love with the Mythos ST speakers. On a side note here I change out my speaker wire as the mood hits. I have many different kinds and try different ones whenever I make a change. I have my Analysis Plus Oval Theater 2's in the box which has not seen action is awhile so I figured why not , they always sounded very good and one of my personal favorites.

I got this very cool demo disc from work that has some very good Artists on it which one I favor and going to purchase all of his work , his name is Christian Scott , go check out his work and you'll see why I like him. Check out Songs "SHE" and "REWIND THAT".

So I sat and listened to my system before I made any changes so I could get a good ear on how it's performing in it's current state , then I made the wiring changes , HDMI , Sub cables and the Speaker wire for the hell of it.
I sat there and thought OK , something is very different , I put everything back except the HDMI cable and still heard this clarity I was missing before I didn't know of.Cinnamon HDMI replaced a Binary B5 which is a solid high quality HDMI cable we use on most of our Installs before we Invested in Audioquest( Thanks to me) and I have been very happy with their performance until now. I also have a Key Digital HDMI cable which is of very good quality that I like to test with for a comparison.
Every single time I swaped out and put back in the Cinnamon it was like I just got higher end Analog IC's. Come on this is just not possible , how the hell can 1's and 0's sound any different ? I'm not believing my own ears. To describe it its like someone cleared up the last word in detail in my system. Everything overall sounds I'll say "cleaner". It's not like I have new tones or I was missing out , it just sound "clean" or 'fresh".
So I'm an idiot and I can now hear a slight different in my HDMI cables for audio , awesome I guess.
I put the new subwoofer wires back in and man they are very smooth and rich. My subs sound wonderful like a car with new sparkplugs or brand new tires. I sat their and loved every second of my experience with the enhanced Definition of my system. All this with a Home theater receiver. NICE GO ICE!!!
I do how have another upgrade in the works and I got to decide If I'm gonna do them myself or let Trey Do them for me. I want to do them myself as I love doing any kind of upgrades. I snapped some pic's on my adventure , what a wonder hobby we have where playing with wire can bring so much joy.

TouchOfEvil

Your wires are prettier than mine, donate please lol.

headrott

Thanks for the write up Dan. I am of the "camp" that digital cables do just pass the "1's" and "0's" from point a to b, but that some do it better (more efficiently) than others. A "1" or "0" (or electirc signal) as it passes through the wire still encounters resistance, capacitance and can be influenced by "skin effect". I know some people are going to go crazy over me saying that. That's fine. Go Crazy. But, I can hear the difference. Can you? So, needless to say a 1 or 0 does not simply pass from point a to point b the same in every cable. Just listen to some different cables and you'll (or should ) hear the difference.

Greg

quadzilla

I'll say "what is jitter?" Alex.

I think kind of along the same line as hr. Yes, digital data is just one's and zeros. But if the cable introduces significant errors, forcing the DAC to spend a lot of time in error correction routines, it will affect the sound. Even if there is only an occasional error, it can still affect the sound.

Now, cue the "cables don't matter crowd" in 5...4...3...

[Deleted User]

Nice write up and the pics are cool. :cool:

Conradicles

Get a new TV Mantis :eek:

mantis

Conradicles wrote: »

Get a new TV Mantis :eek:

LMAO!!! I know I know I should have purchased the 60 Kuro Elite when I had the chance and I let it slip through my fingers. Ever since that went down I kinda lost my steam for a new set. I almost pulled the trigger on a 58 Panasonic V25 series but something told me to wait. Then the LG PK750 and Pk950 took me a but but still something inside told me it's not the one yet.
Honestly I'm a movie guy and want nothing more then a nice 58-65 inch Plasma on my wall , at this time I'm considering relocating all the gear into the basement future position into a nice Mid Atlantic rack. My wife would love all these moves as I would not have gear in the livingroom anymore.

Conradicles

Your system looks fantastic! Bet it sounds amazing. One of these days I need to step up to the new surround formats as I am desperatly lagging behind the times.

digitalvideo

mantis what you're doing is I believe marketing hype, I don't know if you work for Audioquest or any other companies you hype up on here but I think it's ethically wrong to promote cables that really offer no improvement in PQ and SQ and we seen this play out with Monster versus Bluejeans and how companies like Monster are disingenuous. For any company that sells HDMI cables to claim there are improvements in PQ and SQ is false advertising and I've yet to see a official study done by a credible source that proves me wrong. I'll still take CNET.com's advice over random bloggers.

Audioquest is the company selling some $600+ 5 foot long cable I believe claiming all these great things it can do. That there alone is why to boycott them.

B Run

Here we go, surprised it took this long:rolleyes:

codyc1ark

digitalvideo wrote: »

mantis what you're doing is I believe marketing hype, I don't know if you work for Audioquest or any other companies you hype up on here but I think it's ethically wrong to promote cables that really offer no improvement in PQ and SQ and we seen this play out with Monster versus Bluejeans and how companies like Monster are disingenuous. For any company that sells HDMI cables to claim there are improvements in PQ and SQ is false advertising and I've yet to see a official study done by a credible source that proves me wrong. I'll still take CNET.com's advice over random bloggers.

Audioquest is the company selling some $600+ 5 foot long cable I believe claiming all these great things it can do. That there alone is why to boycott them.

I believe mantis stated in the first line of his writeup that he was talking to his 'rep', so we can kind of rule out that he works for AQ. Let's not rail against his write up just to rail against it, kind of childish. He was telling us what he heard, not saying that if you add this cable it will make your system sound better, end of the line.

Let the man share his thoughts, sheesh man, sheesh. Isn't that what this forum is kind of about?

digitalvideo

codyc1ark wrote: »

I believe mantis stated in the first line of his writeup that he was talking to his 'rep', so we can kind of rule out that he works for AQ. Let's not rail against his write up just to rail against it, kind of childish. He was telling us what he heard, not saying that if you add this cable it will make your system sound better, end of the line.

Let the man share his thoughts, sheesh man, sheesh. Isn't that what this forum is kind of about?

Yes, that is true, I'm sorry for being aggressive in my post. It's just this topic has been discussed so much and we've seen what companies like AudioQuest and Monster charge and make all these Mars dust claims and sell their products for ridiculous prices.

But let's just say hypothetically you can hear or see the slightest tiny little improvement in SQ or PQ, is it worth spending hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of dollars more for a wire the same length as a $20 dollar HDMI wire? You got to take into account the performance cost ratio factor too.

mantis

digitalvideo wrote: »

mantis what you're doing is I believe marketing hype, I don't know if you work for Audioquest or any other companies you hype up on here but I think it's ethically wrong to promote cables that really offer no improvement in PQ and SQ and we seen this play out with Monster versus Bluejeans and how companies like Monster are disingenuous. For any company that sells HDMI cables to claim there are improvements in PQ and SQ is false advertising and I've yet to see a official study done by a credible source that proves me wrong. I'll still take CNET.com's advice over random bloggers.

Audioquest is the company selling some $600+ 5 foot long cable I believe claiming all these great things it can do. That there alone is why to boycott them.

I see you have been apart of this forum since 2009 , I'm also going to assume you have at least read 1 or more of my threads.
If this is true you already know I don't work for Audioquest or Monstercable. I have been in the business for 12 years and counting. You should also know that I'm heavily into wire , calibration , tweaking my system.
What you are saying in your above post is I'm not a credible source and just some random blogger. If this is how you feel about what I have been writing on this forum then please stop reading my threads and posts.
As far as promoting anything , I could care less if you or anyone else buys what I enjoy. My goal in every signal thing I write is to share my professional and personal experiences with everyone on this forum. I am one of the very oldest members. If what I write inspires someone to go out and try something , thats my goal is to have an open mind and try everything our beautiful hobby(and my job) provides. If you feel spending any kind of money on any cables is a waste then maybe you have no experience in this or you have your own experiences that has shown you where to spend your time and money.
I'm also not going to try and convince anyone that any cables make any differences at all. If you ask me my opinion I will give it. If you research everything I have ever wrote in here , you will come to learn I have strong opinion on what I believe in.
Audioquest builds hands down the best cables in the business in my opinion. I have worked with just about every single brand cable made.As a Custom In home Audio Video Installer / Programmer ,I need what works the best in the field. Audioquest offers products that make my jobs go smooth and I can rely every single time I install their products that I'm offering my customer the best their money is buying.
I have Installed 36k 6 foot speaker wire and put together some of the highest end systems money can buy but I'm not here to form any opinion for you ok.
You can boycott anyone you like my friend , you can include my if you wish.Maybe you can teach me something but my system rocks and I'm extremely happy with the results I got with my latest additions. If you lived close by I would demo it for you and you could form your own opinion , or just keep following cnet.com for all your audio and video advise. I'm gonna assume you have nothing more here to learn.

mantis

digitalvideo wrote: »

Yes, that is true, I'm sorry for being aggressive in my post. It's just this topic has been discussed so much and we've seen what companies like AudioQuest and Monster charge and make all these Mars dust claims and sell their products for ridiculous prices.

But let's just say hypothetically you can hear or see the slightest tiny little improvement in SQ or PQ, is it worth spending hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of dollars more for a wire the same length as a $20 dollar HDMI wire? You got to take into account the performance cost ratio factor too.

I'm going to ask you a few questions as a professional , you can take it as a random blogger.

1) How important is the performance of your system?
2) Does getting everything out of it you spent your hard earned money on important?
3) Is it worth your time and effort to learn about all the things in the chain?

You seem to have a strong opinion with Audioquest and Monstercable. I share a strong opinion of both these companies for very different reasons.

Monstercable builds great quality cables. I don't care what they ask for them. The market will determine if they are worth what they ask as if people buy them , then they are worth it. If they don't sell then they are probably asking more then they are worth.
With all that being said , I do not like Monstercable as they try to sue everyone who uses the word "monster" in their name. I never understood that as I read most of the battle they went to court about and it really turned me off. It doesn't change my opinion of the product but of the company.

Audioquest I'm not going to do it again but they are my go to wire company and they never steered me wrong or underperformed ever. They also can charge whatever they like , I will also be a customer. They earned that right with me.

Don't be sorry for being so aggressive in your post. If thats how you feel so be it. I'm not looking to change your opinions or look down on you for having them. When you go home and sit in front of your hand built system , I just hope it's everything you could want out of it.

And one last thing , I asked in the opening "How can a HDMI cable make a sonic Improvement?" I don't remembering you answering this. Again if you have read my threads you will find I'm no supporter of super high end cables that don't offer "worth it to me" returns. HDMI has never proven that higher end cables make any difference at all "IF" the given cable meets all HDMI certified spec's of what is asked of it. Now I will go on record to say that higher quality cables can go further distances without failure. Cheaper cables I have seen fail. HDMI is my single most hated technology that has graced us with it's presence. I never in my life seen anything fail more then this. Ask any custom Install company how they feel about HDMI , you will get some heated remarks. Don't get me started.

digitalvideo

You're now taking this way too seriously. What was the purpose of your post? But I'll answer your questions.

mantis wrote: »

I'm going to ask you a few questions as a professional , you can take it as a random blogger.

1) How important is the performance of your system?

Answer - Important enough to know that the right electronics, speakers, tv, speaker/sub placement and room dimensions make the difference not wires. Shorter thicker lower gauge wires from Belden/Bluejeans or Monoprice is all a home theater needs.


2) Does getting everything out of it you spent your hard earned money on important?

Answer - See above answer.


3) Is it worth your time and effort to learn about all the things in the chain?

Answer - My answer above is from reading multiple website forums.

mantis wrote: »

You seem to have a strong opinion with Audioquest and Monstercable. I share a strong opinion of both these companies for very different reasons.

Monstercable builds great quality cables. I don't care what they ask for them. The market will determine if they are worth what they ask as if people buy them , then they are worth it. If they don't sell then they are probably asking more then they are worth.

What country and factory are Audioquest and Monster made in so I can contact them or anyone about their manufacturing and assembly process. Most HDMI cables are made in China in the same factory made by Copartner that you can buy on Amazon.com for under $5 bucks. I'm not saying Audioquest and Monster are but it wouldn't surprise me.

Audioquest and Monster are not recognized by HDMI organization as a official HDMI adopter and never got the official HDMI seal of approval, where Belden and Bluejeans has. To get the HDMI seal of approval to be recognized as a true HDMI wire it has to go through HDMI's testing labs.

HDMI Adopters:

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/adopters_founders.aspx

mantis wrote:

Ask any custom Install company how they feel about HDMI , you will get some heated remarks. Don't get me started.

Because HDMI simplifies a lot of things, there are far less wires required compared to RCA analogue wires.

F1nut

Answer - Important enough to know that the right electronics, speakers, tv, speaker/sub placement and room dimensions make the difference not wires. Shorter thicker lower gauge wires from Belden/Bluejeans or Monoprice is all a home theater needs.

Wrong, again.

dragon1952

digitalvideo wrote: »

Yes, that is true, I'm sorry for being aggressive in my post. It's just this topic has been discussed so much and we've seen what companies like AudioQuest and Monster charge and make all these Mars dust claims and sell their products for ridiculous prices.

But let's just say hypothetically you can hear or see the slightest tiny little improvement in SQ or PQ, is it worth spending hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of dollars more for a wire the same length as a $20 dollar HDMI wire? You got to take into account the performance cost ratio factor too.

I won't be running out and buying one but I did check the price on this cable and it was around $70, not hundreds or thousands

B Run

digitalvideo wrote: »

Shorter thicker lower gauge wires from Belden/Bluejeans or Monoprice is all a home theater needs.

You're absolutely right, for a decent home theater that is technically all you would NEED. However you can do a lot better, and get the most out of your system or you can be close minded and never know. I thought cheap rca cables were all i "needed", then tried some entry level Audioquest and thought that was all I needed, now with my signal cables i'm extremely happy with the sound I got, especially for the price. Had I not tried different things and listened to the guy who sold me my amp, i'd still be running cheap rca's and would be none the wiser.

It's the same for any part in your system from the power cable to the speaker wires, but i'm sure you don't believe in any of that either. I just come from the school of why not buy it and give it a shot and if it's not worth it just return it? Nobody online has heard my system nor can they tell me what will or won't sound better to me. Mantis shared his PERSONAL experience with us, and if you don't believe him or don't care just move on. Some of us like to hear others opinions and experiences and that's why we are members here.

digitalvideo

F1nut wrote: »

Wrong, again.

What was I wrong about and can you back up your answer with any proven facts from credible sources?

digitalvideo

How This $2,000 HDMI Cable Will Change Your Life

http://consumerist.com/2011/01/how-this-2000-hdmi-cable-will-change-your-life.html

Any company who pulls a scam like that should be boycotted for the principle of the matter.

So mantis "IF" that Audioquest cable you tested made a improvement, then I wonder how much of a improvement this Audioquest Coffee cable will make, is it a $2000 dollar improvement?

F1nut

You're wrong that better cables don't make a difference, everything makes a difference. You should try some instead of remaining inexperienced.

Serendipity

digitalvideo wrote: »

Answer - Important enough to know that the right electronics, speakers, tv, speaker/sub placement and room dimensions make the difference not wires. Shorter thicker lower gauge wires from Belden/Bluejeans or Monoprice is all a home theater needs.

+1

To a large extent, but not always entirely:

I agree. I have heard many different cables ranging from cheap to very expensive, and honestly I didn't hear a significant difference. A cheap $10 HDMI cable sounded the same as a $129 HDMI cable, even after some time to allow for break in.

As for interconnects, I've had the opportunity to compare regular RCA's (the ones supplied with a VCR or cable box) against MIT cables and still didn't hear much of a difference. The two other polkies there (Face, Polrbehr) said there was a significant difference. I said that I respectfully disagree and that I preferred the sound of the cheap RCA's better. They still insisted that there was a big difference between the cables.

My advice is who cares what others think, it is up to YOU if you hear a difference or not.

There is no right or wrong in audio, just different opinions.

digitalvideo

F1nut wrote: »

You're wrong that better cables don't make a difference, everything makes a difference. You should try some instead of remaining inexperienced.

NBC News and CNET.com disagree with you, I'll take their advice, claims and test results over yours since you never back up anything you say. What tests have you done?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38731070/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/

Conradicles

IMHO cables should be kind of the last sweet tweak. Spend 10% - 20% of your total system worth is the norm...but to each his own. Don't expect too much from them, but at the same time don't discount the benefits they can bring to the table.

DarqueKnight

mantis wrote: »

Every single time I swaped out and put back in the Cinnamon it was like I just got higher end Analog IC's. Come on this is just not possible , how the hell can 1's and 0's sound any different ? I'm not believing my own ears. To describe it its like someone cleared up the last word in detail in my system. Everything overall sounds I'll say "cleaner". It's not like I have new tones or I was missing out , it just sound "clean" or 'fresh".

So I'm an idiot and I can now hear a slight different in my HDMI cables for audio , awesome I guess.

Thanks for your insights Dan.

I did some comparisons of different HDMI cables (Monoprice, Monster, Audio Research, Rocketfish) when I initially put my current HT system together in 2009. I didn't see or hear a difference between any of them and settled on the lowest price Monoprice cables.

Now that I have a couple of years experience with my HT system, I think it would be a good idea to revisit HDMI cables.

mantis

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Thanks for your insights Dan.

I did some comparisons of different HDMI cables (Monoprice, Monster, Audio Research, Rocketfish) when I initially put my current HT system together in 2009. I didn't see or hear a difference between any of them and settled on the lowest price Monoprice cables.

Now that I have a couple of years experience with my HT system, I think it would be a good idea to revisit HDMI cables.

Your welcome. I can only chalk it up to the cables I was using was introducing some kind of errors or loss. I'm not sure how as the cables are 1 meter and .06 meters long. All my HDMI cables work and don't fail.
I have not done any picture quality testing but I plan on next time I get some down time. I'm gonna replace all the cables in our theater room with Cinnamon series cables and see if it makes any difference. We have a 120 inch screen and a Epson 9700 Projector. For audio it's basically my system with Mythos series and Pioneer Elite.
Let me know what you find.

tonyb

digitalvideo wrote: »

What was I wrong about and can you back up your answer with any proven facts from credible sources?

The facts are within ones own ears and as far as credible sources go, I'd take advice from Jesse anyday over MSNBC.

If msnbc told you a Bose wave radio would replace all your audio gear and sound better, would you sell it all ?

Didn't take long for the cable nay-sayers to jump in a discusion they know nothing about. Dan had been in the camp of hdmi cables don't make a difference.....1's and 0's and all that. It's not just the cable per say, but your system as a whole. The more revealing your system becomes, the more likely you will hear subtle changes in a cable swap.

tonyb

Reported

AsSiMiLaTeD

digitalvideo you are WAY out of line here. If you don't believe that cables make a difference then fine you're entitled to your opinion. It would be nice if you kept it out of this thread, but you're allowed to post wherever you like so I can't really fault you for that.

However, making the accusations that you did in your original post about Dan are tasteless and uncalled for. You can get lost as far as I'm concerned, there's no need for that around here. Oh, and then you have the audacity to say HE'S being too serious!!!!

And you're going to take CNet's advice on anything audio related? CNet last time I checked highly recommended Bose, that pretty much invalidates anything they have to say.

And then you're going to boycott a company because YOU don't think their product has any value? That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've read.

You've got to be kidding me.

janmike

Nice review Dan. Every time I read these great write-ups I think - maybe worth while. $$$

heiney9

digitalvideo wrote: »

I've yet to see a official study done by a credible source that proves me wrong.

Here's a new idea, stop waiting around for someone else to tell you you see/hear a difference and get off your **** and experiment for yourself, in your room, in your rig. Until then, put a sock in it because you have no experience to debate what others feel they see/hear as improvements.

H9