Why Are You Mad At Cables You Can't Afford?
Comments
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inspiredsports wrote: »Lambo owners don't go to "the store" (unless it's on Rodeo where it's highly unlikely they'll get keyed unless it's by a jilted lover, etc.).
Lambo owners send their minions to "the store".
I have a client that drives his Carrera GT's to WalMart.design is where science and art break even. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »That's a great suggestion. Thanks.
Raife, I'm on your side brother. Obviously you can't beat it into them, seriously, did you get the answer you were looking for here? I get it. A few others get it. You certainly get it.
Sorry, I lost it with the usual rhetoric and the Roger Russell shart. And yes, I am a simpleton at heart. I laugh at my own flatus on occasion, all by myself. I have yet to actually measure it.
Cheers,
RussCheck your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service. -
huck too huck too zigadig bang boo huck too
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Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »What is "FAIR"
When the manufactures sets no minimum advertised price on an item and an internet company uses their entire product line as a loss leader? Selling an item BELOW cost.
How is that fair? The consumer only wins. And before long when the dumb **** internet company wakes up and realizes that they are giving away the only product that makes them money to sell high dollar - low profit - items they might get it too.
The internet has ruined the market place Techno kid.
When you search for an item and you see 10 prices at X and then 3 at Y and Y is 150 dollars less than X - its because some dumbass out of his house bought that from somewhere and is selling it for 20 dollars over cost because he can.
Thats not consumer awareness its wrong.
Another interesting point is that if Seller A has 100 units of an item priced at $100, and Seller B has 2 units of the exact same item priced at $90, and Seller C has 1 unit priced at $60 (out of his house), the public perceives all 103 units to be worth $60.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
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inspiredsports wrote: »Another interesting point is that if Seller A has 100 units of an item priced at $100, and Seller B has 2 units of the exact same item priced at $90, and Seller C has 1 unit priced at $60 (out of his house), the public perceives all 103 units to be worth $60.
but aren't they?
See, as a buyer, we don't care about the sellers cost. If he is not smart enough to keep his costs lower than the other guy, or if he can't provide a better service/experience or whatever.... I mean, if he has no competitive advantage and his prices are higher... shouldn't he go out of business?
That's the great thing about technology, with mini cnc machines and such like going so far down in price, it seems like anyone can get into any business. It is unlikely a small guy will take out a big guy, but he can fill a niche, and those price conscious customers can have their high quality and low prices.... and the big guy can feed off the customers who don't have the time/want to educate themselves about cost and such to make them want to buy from the little guy... everyone's happy. -
You obviously are missing the point.
If you sell an item for 60 and it costs 60 you make no money. No one will be in business because if Seller A and B go out of business who bought 99% of the product and you guys are left with Seller C who buys 1 or 2 - Manufacture A will soon go out with the dealers.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
inspiredsports wrote: »????
As for timing, I've never heard anyone mention timing to refer to phase shift. Probably was a joke?2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »You obviously are missing the point.
If you sell an item for 60 and it costs 60 you make no money. No one will be in business because if Seller A and B go out of business who bought 99% of the product and you guys are left with Seller C who buys 1 or 2 - Manufacture A will soon go out with the dealers.
I musta misread. I didn't see that he said that the 60 dollar guy was selling at cost.
ah, I see you added a step.. I was figuring manufacturer-retailers. I'm not a huge fan of retail, so I always gravitate towards the Manufacturer to customer model. Cutting the retailer also seems to be a trend. -
If you are honest, that would n't be fair since it does involve you directly and your sided.Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »Id like to keep my place of business out of this discussion and the market in which I am in. If you know the business in which I work you can please keep it to yourself. Thanks
In fact, it might be to your advantage to give us a look from the inside. What you have mentioned earlier is quite understandable. "Joe Who" working from his home for example does not have the same responsibities and cost as you do in your street front business. I understand your concerns and why you would consider this unfair. However, serious companies (like Polk as an example) would protect you from such individuals with the "authorised dealers" protection (which I fully agree with). However, consider there are many authorised online dealers that offers decent pricing.
Not if your a wise shopper and do your homework. I don't think the 1 unit home base seller has an "authorised dealer" status. To have dealer status with most manufacturers, volume is a concern along with reference of the trade, you don't usually open a business overnight and become an "authorised dealer" instantly (unless you have huge $$ account to back you up).Another interesting point is that if Seller A has 100 units of an item priced at $100, and Seller B has 2 units of the exact same item priced at $90, and Seller C has 1 unit priced at $60 (out of his house), the public perceives all 103 units to be worth $60.DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
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There is no magic to pricing - most dealers are no longer over priced because of the internet and those that are deserve to fail. But people are under the impression that dealers owe them something because they graced the dealer with their presence. People do not realize that unlike the internet a B&M store can provide services after the sale - answer questions, trouble shoot, warranty help... you name it - yet they want to beat up the dealer for 20 dollars off or get rid of tax to match amazon.
Granted we will match the internet door to door - it is our policy.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
My line of work and place of business is not relevant - sorry.
Authorized dealers and manufactures is a joke.
I can pull up products we carry and can tell you half the people selling them are not authorized and are usually well below the MINIMUM ADVERTISED PRICE that is required of authorized dealers to abide by.
How do these people obtain these products?
Simple -
Manufacture A requires dealer A to buy x amount of product with certain amount of x in each category.
Lets say Dealer A is really good at selling in one category and not the other - eventually that dealer will blow out their product at cost on ebay or through the back door... etc etc
Selling through the back door - who knows...
But manufactures do not police authorized dealers or pricing...- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Their ethics worse then their pricing and quite well known/documented.
Electronically, you can definitely affect/alter timing/phase in a cable. This might help you to understand some of the theory behind it; http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-timedelayphase.htmhttp://www.libinst.com/tpfd.htmhttp://www.audiosold.com/theorydesign.htm
No worries, I do have a basic understanding of E+M and wave mechanics, so I'm not too lost on the subject. Yes, you can affect the phase by adding capacitance to the cable. However MIT does some fancy stuff and reduces phase shift by adding a capacitor somewhere in the circuit. I'm not too clear on this but by adding inductance, capacitance or resistance in the speaker cable at various places they claim to increase performance. I've actually gone over some sites which measure the inductance, capacitance, and resistance of each cable from various manufacturers and posted the values to differentiate them.
As for Monster's ethics, I have heard they are sue-happy. But as a consumer, there are so many big companies out there suing (cough motorola cough), it just seems like the price of doing business, incorrectly I might add. As a consumer, what worries me as well as many others, is the price of Monster cables and their quality.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Yes and know, this is a double sided blade IMO. The little guy might be there for a quick buck but who is behind you to provide you after purchase service and back you up if there are any issues. Personally, I try to get the best bang for my buck, but I like to go somewhere in between (calculated risk) so I get back-up from my seller if need be. Personally, I don't care for the the top dollard salemen and I prefer better pricing by eliminating the floor salesmen and use self serve but you also have to realize this is not everyone's cup of thea. Some requires sound help (if such still exist).cokewithvanilla wrote: »but aren't they?
See, as a buyer, we don't care about the sellers cost. If he is not smart enough to keep his costs lower than the other guy, or if he can't provide a better service/experience or whatever.... I mean, if he has no competitive advantage and his prices are higher... shouldn't he go out of business?
That's the great thing about technology, with mini cnc machines and such like going so far down in price, it seems like anyone can get into any business. It is unlikely a small guy will take out a big guy, but he can fill a niche, and those price conscious customers can have their high quality and low prices.... and the big guy can feed off the customers who don't have the time/want to educate themselves about cost and such to make them want to buy from the little guy... everyone's happy.DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
My answer to the OP's question in the header is still: people are angry at the exclusivity and the price vs. cost of manufacture. I know R+D is built into the costs such as speakers. You can actually read the patents these companies put out which isn't too many. But these cables cannot nearly cost that much to make for the price they're selling it for, that's the bottom line. Profit margin is big, perhaps too big? I guess that's up for argument.
But it seems like all these speaker companies are doing is adding maybe a cap here or there, an inductor here or there, a resistor, here or there, using thick copper and thick shielding and pricing it up.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Yes and know, this is a double sided blade IMO. The little guy might be there for a quick buck but who is behind you to provide you after purchase service and back you up if there are any issues. Personally, I try to get the best bang for my buck, but I like to go somewhere in between (calculated risk) so I get back-up from my seller if need be. Personally, I don't care for the the top dollard salemen and I prefer better pricing by eliminating the floor salesmen and use self serve but you also have to realize this is not everyone's cup of thea. Some requires sound help (if such still exist).
And I think that's why both models can coexist. I don't think it will come to a point when everybody will trust Joe whoever to make all these items. It is just nice to see that as technology progresses, people can own higher quality items for less. And it is also cool that with the proliferation of information, we can all understand the costs that go into our products, so we can better decide for ourselves if we are being ripped... .this is all personal preference
Also, consider the options for Open Source. Imagine an open source company that builds audio gear... designed by the masses, all in the open, everyone knows the costs and this and that... the company builds the products with low profit margin, but low R&D and total cost because it was built by the community.. ect.... that would be real cool... and again, it probably wouldn't take away business from the likes of Revel
Look at me still talking when there's Science to do.... -
Then, wouldn't you agree that the internet has served its purpose?Granted we will match the internet door to door - it is our policy.
I agree with you, as businesses need to adapt (and this was way before internet). The ones that do not adapt to current market are and deserve to fail.There is no magic to pricing - most dealers are no longer over priced because of the internet and those that are deserve to fail.
Then I will respect that!My line of work and place of business is not relevant - sorry.
The only way to police is by not honoring warranties. Depending on the item cost, I personally would not feel comfortable buying a product which warranty is void (but I would agree some consumers may not be educated in that regard and would not care/realize the cosequences).But manufactures do not police authorized dealers or pricing...
I believe you mean cable companies, right?But it seems like all these speaker companies are doing is adding maybe a cap here or there, an inductor here or there, a resistor, here or there, using thick copper and thick shielding and pricing it up. As otherwise, there is much more than simply adding a component here and there to engineer good speakers (look at the new LsiM for example ). DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Matching the internet door to door is all well and good - until you get some internet dealers who use entire product lines as loss leaders.
I mean really - why is that necessary? One or two products - sure - but to basically sell a manufactures product below what they sell it to the dealer for is just silly.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
at least they bother to come in... i mean, it kinda sucks having to match the price, but when you're competing with the internet, at least the internet brought you the traffic to the store (instead of them using the store as a testing ground, then buying off the internets). Hell, they might even buy a cable or two while they're at it... or visit again...
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Well like I said we will match it - business is business. But people like that have a tendency to price match everything and all you end up doing is moving money sideways and you can never please them.
It sucks man - but the sad truth is the internet has turned people into wanting stuff for nothing and some take that really seriously to the point of nauseating levels.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
I get ya, that is s@#$$y. I guess I don't get that about people... I mean, I am a cheap ****, so I buy used... but when I go into a shop to buy something new, I have the cash, I don't haggle, and I don't waste their time... I'd feel like a total **** trying to haggle, or ask about a few bucks off... I really don't understand how people do it.
When I moved down to TN, I really found out about haggling.. it still amazes me. -
I can't see them selling at loss all the time, they would not be able to stay in business. As far as your second statement, this goes with volume and the fact that most internet stores are virtual and do not absorb the cost that store front have to do (facility rental and inventory). There again a need to adapt to new market trends. Many store fronts stores now have the combination of store front and virtual store. IMO, this seem to be a good way to adapt to the new business trends.Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »Matching the internet door to door is all well and good - until you get some internet dealers who use entire product lines as loss leaders.I mean really - why is that necessary? One or two products - sure - but to basically sell a manufactures product below what they sell it to the dealer for is just silly.
I definitely feel for what you are saying but even as a business man, how do you think one becomes successfull? IMO, a good business, is one that knows how to deal for the best pricing possible for his own dealing purchase. How can we NOT agree that a successfull buye/consumer do the same for him self?Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »Well like I said we will match it - business is business. But people like that have a tendency to price match everything and all you end up doing is moving money sideways and you can never please them.
It sucks man - but the sad truth is the internet has turned people into wanting stuff for nothing and some take that really seriously to the point of nauseating levels.
We are a long way from the OP but I feel this is important and relevant as it is designing the way the market place is going. I got your point on what is unfair but I did not get your answer on what is fair? Even more important, what is your opinion as far as strategies for businesses such as yours to strategize and adapt to this market trend allowing you to be competitive and successfull?
In the older days, 30% mark-up was common and seemed to fair for everyone. For many years, mark-ups sky rocketted and IMO, internet stores seems to bring this back down to the good old 30% mark-up. I fully understand store front costs but how can store front adapt, be competitive and fair to buyers/consumers?DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Personally, I don't feel I waste anybody's time either. I do my howework on what I want to buy, I bring proff of the pricing, I ask and I usally I get. To my knowledge, never my request were ever refused and quite the opposite, seller goes does his homework checking his cost and grat me what I am willing to pay. This usally takes only a few minutes, salemen seek manager approval, manager's checks cost and promptly and happily grant me the price I am willing to pay. To MSRPs are inflated pricing that an educated shopper realize and will built his bargainig on for fir pricing. However, fair pricing does not mean getting for free, just fair deal. If one is not educated enough to realize that MSRPs are inflated and are not willing to work in order to get fair pricing (which I believe is still a majority) then good for the salemen and store. That consermer deserves the deal he is getting.I get ya, that is ****. I guess I don't get that about people... I mean, I am a cheap ****, so I buy used... but when I go into a shop to buy something new, I have the cash, I don't haggle, and I don't waste their time... I'd feel like a total **** trying to haggle, or ask about a few bucks off... I really don't understand how people do it.
My area of work is in the rental and services (operation of our rental gear). The company coasts and inventory burden is also high. While we are not afraid to provide serious consumers with great deals, we are lower than most of our competitors and at times we will even offer close to 50% discount. Many of our competitors complain that we drop our pants to get the business and are driving the industry down however, they do not realize it is their choice to be gready and persist on high profit margins. We have to realize that overall pricing of gear (this goes for dealers too) have come down substantial and we have the choice to keep pricing high (and potentially stick with our products) or adjust our own pricing to our lower cost and sell/rent in bulk (grether demand for the lower cost). The days of selling a few items to be cosy should be long gone, even dealers have to roll-up their sleeves and work for living! Just odd that the ones that are willing to do this are still very successfull (just need to work harder for every dollar earned!).DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Asking for skyrocket high profit is ok but shopping for better deals/haggling is not ok?
It's a free market man, everybody lives and dies by their own sword.
Those that continuously shop from direct/Internet outlets have to realize that the death of B&M shops may wipe convenient local showrooms for them to personally try their gears at.
Those that exclusively shop and support B&M outlets should also acknowledge that the world is getting flatter. Information is a balancing/leveling agent. Communication, travel and logistics are getting cheaper and more efficient by the seconds. Ye olde business model may be an endangered species.
On prices:
Those that buy cheap stuffs need to watch the quality of products that they purchase. It's what usually goes when vendors cut costs.
Those that purchase expensive stuff... Well they need to see if the claimed benefits are true or not, just some placebo effect that gets nullified through double blind tests. -
Everything in this thread looks alright after I got 4 shots down my throat.
Then, I came to realize that the Cables are the 11th wonder of this world.
Out of this world indeed. Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Supply and Demand is the bottom line. If someone is willing to pay , the market sets the price.
I have been in this business a very long time, I have also installed 36k cables at 6 feet. I have Installed 120k amps and speakers. All worth it to the person who owns them.
I can't afford any of those products but I'm not mad at them or the people who buy them. I buy what I can afford and what I feel is worth it. Learn from experience is what my journey has taught me.I own $4000.00 front speakers , some may say" I would never pay that for a pair of speakers" some may say" I can achieve the same or better sound quality for less" Others could say " something is wrong with a person who spends $4000.00 on a single pair of speakers , I got my entire speaker package for less including my sub".
Who cares is someone wants to spend their hard earned money on high end wire. If they feel it's worth it , then it's worth it. If it takes high end cables for the person to be happy ,suck it let them be happy.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Technically fair is when a product sells for the minimum advertised price set by the manufacture. Not list - but MAP. Every product you see online usually has a map and of course there are those products that do not have a MAP that the manufacture is going to assume you will mark up the normal 20-30%. Most internet dealers will mark these up 1-5% and basically sell them at a loss with free shipping.
Its a **** way to do business man.
We do online sales and store front sales. problem with online sales is what is mentioned above. Whats the point of selling a product barely over cost then shipping it and essentially losing money.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »We do online sales and store front sales. problem with online sales is what is mentioned above. Whats the point of selling a product barely over cost then shipping it and essentially losing money.
At least at your B&M your floor people most likely know what they are talking about. I just went to Guitar Center asking for either a PCIe Card or external FW/USB DAC that could output XLR and also give me a line for AES/EBU (not uncommon). The guy working DAW section just had this glazed over look. I wanted to buy local or at least get hands and ears on a model or two.
Heck, he showed me the Apogee Duet (but the Duet 2 is coming out) I mentioned that I own a PC. Didn't phase him (Apogee AFAIK only supports MAC). In the middle of my 10-12 minutes there he takes a phone call about going to the batting cages. Uhg, retail is dead to me.
How is it I can go pick up a Gibson or Fender etc... plug into an amp and try it out but they aren't willing to pull something from the display case and throw it on one of the workstations? -
This cable debate would make for an interesting episode on Mythbusters. Hmmmmmm.... "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »Technically fair is when a product sells for the minimum advertised price set by the manufacture. Not list - but MAP. Every product you see online usually has a map and of course there are those products that do not have a MAP that the manufacture is going to assume you will mark up the normal 20-30%. Most internet dealers will mark these up 1-5% and basically sell them at a loss with free shipping.
Its a **** way to do business man.
We do online sales and store front sales. problem with online sales is what is mentioned above. Whats the point of selling a product barely over cost then shipping it and essentially losing money.
I bought my svs subs via internet (that's their way). B&M stores could NOT match the price/performance svs offers. -
pearsall001 wrote: »This cable debate would make for an interesting episode on Mythbusters. Hmmmmmm....
I would love to see that episode. Maybe they can test a few audio debates.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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