Why Are You Mad At Cables You Can't Afford?

DarqueKnight

From time to time in my audio readings I come across bitter, vitriolic, rantings against expensive audio cables from people who can't possibly afford them in 10 of their lifetimes.

In every field of commerce there is super expensive, "carriage trade" merchandise marketed to weathy people. Is a 50 million dollar house, a 1 million dollar car, a 50 thousand dollar men's suit "worth it"? Such things are obviously worth it to some that can afford them. Furthermore, such things wouldn't be made if someone wasn't buying them.

I can see how, in the world of carriage trade goods, a $40,000 audio cable is relatively cheap. The person who would drop $40K on a cable probably eats off a set of china that cost $60K. Although a $40,000 cable may not offer any performance benefits over a $1,000 cable, the fit, finish and materials will be of such a calibre as to earn a place next to the buyer's $180,000 loudspeakers, $80,000 CD player, $100,000 monoblock amps, $30,000 preamp, and $160,000 turntable. Consider that a $220,000 Rolex Masterpiece watch does not tell time any better than my $100 Casio G-Shock. However, the $220,000 Rolex might be just the accessory to go with the rich guy's $50,000 Kiton K-50 suit and $250,000 customized Benz.

The carriage trade really is a different world. Yet, purchases of uber-expensive homes, clothes, cars and other "regular type" goods are applauded. The person who buys a uber-expensive audio item is figuratively measured for a straight jacket.

Really, who's to say that many, if not most, of these peaple railing against the discretionary audio puchases of carriage trade individuals wouldn't buy the same, or even more expensive audio toys, if they were miraculously catapulted to such lofty economic status? If someone had told my college student self that I would one day pay multiple thousands of dollars for a CD player and think nothing of it, I would have laughed them to scorn.

1. Why is it considered heroic to buy a $500,000 Lamborghini, yet considered insanity to buy a $40,000 cable...if one can comfortably afford it?

Yeah, yeah, I've heard all the drivel about everyone can see the difference between a Lamborghini and a Taurus whereas the difference between a $40,000 cable and a $100 cable is no so obvious. Just because it is not obvious to you does not mean it is not obvious to someone who lives in that world.

2. Why do some people worry about what other people do with their money?

3. Why do some people get angry about the price of a luxury audio item that is way out of their financial means?

4. Is this a case of "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against"?

Discuss.

kawizx9r

No need to discuss really.

You broke down what many of us have said time and time again, more specifically in response to the occasional trolls that lurk around and offer their '.02' whenever cables are brought up.

It's my money, I don't need anyone else telling me how to spend it. :cool:

Well said DK.

On3s&Z3r0s

Why does it bother you that some people question your economic decisions?

DarqueKnight

On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »

Why does it bother you that some people question your economic decisions?

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or kawizx9r. If it is directed at me:

I don't recall that anyone has questioned my economic decisions...and it wouldn't bother me if they did. I would find it amusing. However, this thread is not about me.

BlueFox

Some people like to complain about anything that does not fit their moral compass of righteousness. Some people are just stupid. Some people know everything already, so they do not need to experience anything. But, I suspect the main reason is they are jealous.

On the other hand, I doubt if a $1000 cable that works as good as a $40,000 cable has a fit and finish that can justify the extra money. Unless the fit and finish are naked Goddesses holding the cable off the floor. Duh! :rolleyes:

On3s&Z3r0s

I guess it's all sort of on a continuum. I actually haven't seen very many bitter, vitriolic rantings against the really high-end stuff lately. I've seen people question the value of some of the moderately priced cables, inexpensive versus boutique carriage-trade offerings, as you call them, but stubstantially more expensive than what you can find at Best Buy.

What I see more often is people who jump to the defense of their high-end gear (regardless of where in the audio "chain" it occurs). That, to me, smacks of rationalization. It seems that they feel the need not only to appreciate the value of their purchases for themselves, but also to have that value recognized widely by others who pursue audio reproduction as a hobby. Many seem to take an attack on the economic soundness of their purchases as an attack on themselves.

I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion and they're entitled to voice it. But the debates that follow usually take on the tone of dogmatic head-butting. As with most disagreements over subjective esoterica like religious or political preference, the only outcome you'll ever see is the generation of a lot of hot air. No one is going to change anyone else's mind.

There are a lot of issues at work in the discussion you seem to want to start. If I were actually interested in the discussion I might itemize them. But that could be seen as an invitation to further discussion; and they would be discussed vigorously, and likely with personal invective that would ultimately get the thread closed. Instead, I think it's best to allow that people with lots of money (or access to sufficient leverage) will spend as they see fit and on what. And those without may find it emotionally satisfying to assure themselves (and anyone else who will listen) that those extravagances are foolish.

DarqueKnight

I'd love to hear the stereo system that is going into this place. I bet the cables will be outrageous in price and performance:

A London Apartment Sells For $222 Million!

RuSsMaN

Like I told a Polkie at our humble gathering yesterday when asked about my opinion of a pair of speakers he had. I gave him my thoughts, but reminded him that it doesn't matter one bit if I like it, if he likes it that's ALL that matters.

I've gotten caught up in these types of debates before, sure. Honestly now, at the end of the day do what you want to do, believe or dismiss what you please, tweak, don't tweak, spend or not. Frankly, I don't give a damn. If it blows your skirt up, regardless of pricepoint - I'm happy for you.

Cheers
Russ

polkfarmboy

A Lambo is a Lambo

No one here on this forum gets angry over cables do they ?

ysss

I can afford them just fine, but there's just too much snakeoil and unquantifiable variables attached to the sales of these types of products.

This is actually a pretty interesting niche market to analyze... there are a few unique (and unfortunate) variables that converge here:

1. Good sound is very subjective, and it's always a function of comparison (eg: if you've only heard of 1 system in all your lifetime, then you wouldn't be able to say what's good and what's bad).

2. It cannot be quantified. Sure, you can measure some variables of it; but there's no accepted and fixed formula for 'it sounds good'.

3. It's dependent on so many other components: the media, all other components in the chain, the room it's played on, etc.

4. Due to mainly #1 & #2, the hobbyists in this field develop their own non-exact jargons and cultures to describe the perceived experience with the products. This provides a very 'flexible' field for snakeoil snakesmen to 'work' in.

IMHO the medias (songs, performances) are the component that should be considered as artwork and subjected to such vague (and subjective) ratings and scoring.

The reproduction system are technical gears that should be subjected to more technical and exact review.

Once these two are confused and switched around... then you're on a pretty slippery slope.

ysss

Comparing a sports car with a premium audio cable is pretty funny


One hides behind all your other gears... the other is flashed and shown all over the place as you travel on it.

One has virtually indistinguishable measurable technical performance and characteristic compared to their peers... while the other is subjected to many tests and have to excel above their average peers to be even considered a 'sports' car.

One is only known to the more seasoned fanbase (and very small number) of this hobby... the other has practically world-renowned brand names pervasive throughout the media and history...

treitz3

Ignorance.

Toolfan66

Haters will hate, The same reason the hater will key your Lambo (or other nice car) because you park at the far end of the lot to keep it from getting dinged..

I visited a friend a few weeks ago only to come out to spit running down my drivers side window..

Jealousy is a big factor,not all but a big part of it. The other part is just a reason to whine..

inspiredsports

I've always heard, "Ignorance is bliss".

When it comes to those who don't appreciate good audio cables, it seems ignorance just pisses them off; "Ignorance is pissed".

nooshinjohn

Hey Keiko....


No good deed goes unpunished. Thank you for providing the link to MIT. The cables are a vast improvement over the Monster they replaced, and the entertainment value they have provided here has been priceless.:biggrin::cool:

EndersShadow

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Hey Keiko....


No good deed goes unpunished. Thank you for providing the link to MIT. The cables are a vast improvement over the Monster they replaced, and the entertainment value they have provided here has been priceless.:biggrin::cool:

Bit off subject, but oh well....

John, how do they sound compared to the ones I brought up to the meet last month (if you can remember)? On the rail if I want to get the MIT's or a new CD player for my car system (which costs the same price as 1.5 sets of them lol).....

pitdogg2

Keiko wrote: »

Never again will I pass along a good thing here after all the crap this has stirred up. If I had known beforehand the direction this has taken, I wouldn't have posted the deal.

Too bad this thing has gotten screwed up by a handful of **** clowns. It's really pathetic! If MIT were giving away those cables for free, some would still find a reason to ****, whine and complain. I think a lot of them wouldn't know good sound if it came up and bit 'em on the ****. Sad this got ruined for those that do appreciate it.

[/end rant] :mad:

well i very much appreciated the kindness you passed along and i thank you. Mine well be here this week. I wish i could afford the upper mit line but i can't that is just the way it is. I wish i could afford some of the gear i see some on here have but i can't. I do not have an attitude about not being able to either that is life. I would never fault anybody for being able to afford a 40,000.00 cable although i would not mind if that person tossed his old cables or gear my way either:)

very well said DK
carry on

cstmar01

Its very easy for people to judge and say that someone spending money on a 40K cable is pointless as well, they can never afford it so why does Tom Dick Harry get to have it.

I think a lot is that a lot of people that do the complaining don't really understand the concept of if it makes you happy then you should be able to do what you want with it, rather than, "well I tried it and it had no affect so I'm going to tell everyone its a waste of money."

People like to always think they know best for others, when in fact they hardly do. Sure I would love to have that kind of money to spend on a cable, but its nice to know that there is always something better out there, and give someone a chance to "dream" and want to work harder in life as maybe one day that cable could be yours. :biggrin:

steveinaz

RuSsMaN wrote: »

Like I told a Polkie at our humble gathering yesterday when asked about my opinion of a pair of speakers he had. I gave him my thoughts, but reminded him that it doesn't matter one bit if I like it, if he likes it that's ALL that matters. Russ

Exactly. Personal taste varies widely, and everyone has a threshold on what they are willing to buy off on. End of the day...don't worry about others opinions; like most anything, build quality, engineering, topology, and specs that match what you're after should be the driving force in your decisions.

It's not a competition, it's a hobby.

headrott

Ray, I do believe it comes down to point #4.

In this case, peole who are bashing those who are buying $40,000 cables are bashing them because they would like to be able to afford them but cannot.

At the same time, point #1 also has some to do with it as well. People who bash those spending money on $40,000 cables either subconsciously or consciously not allowing themselves to be able to hear the difference between a semi or super expensive cable and a $30.00 cable set. Or, as we have seen cases of these "bashers" don't even bother trying to listen for the differences. Like the Lamborghini and Taurus example (where it is completely obvious there is a difference if you have eysight) the differences between cables are easy to point a finger at and say here look at this part of the cable and see what the quality difference is in how it's made. The $40,000 cable (as naysayers say) may look more "fit and finished" than the $30.00 one, but they cannot hear any difference between the cables (or at least not enough to justify spending that kind of money on them).

From looks we get into details about the cable that require more awareness and willingness to attain. They are just as real as the "fit and finish" parts of the cable, but require more than just your ears to hear them (opposed to just your eyes to see them). Although, we have been down this path many times in cable threads so I won't go down it again in this one. Let me just say that the details are there for anyone with the desire to listen for them.

Greg

pearsall001

I don't think anyone is "mad" because they can't afford botique items. There's just a boat load of opinions out there in regards to the cable topic.

I've noticed on many occasion that the cable nay-sayers will be jumped on big time by others here on the forum & literally torn to shreds because they "just don't get it". God forbid any one posts a link to this fellow...
http://www.roger-russell.com/ or doesn't believe that MIT cables are the end all be all in the cable arena. The sword cuts both ways in the bebate.

To each his own & buy whatever works for you.

steveinaz

I think another apsect is that many people are casual listeners. They enjoy music, good quality gear, but they don't want to nerd out on the miniscule details. Hi-fi fanatics like to get into the subtle nuances, and dissect the performance--and are therefore more picky and listening more closely.

I think it's like car enthusiasts. You got one guy who wants a really nice/expensive sport car because he's into the hobby; then you've got the guy who wants to build it himself, from the ground up. Both are enthusiasts, but at different levels of involvement.

headrott

Also, with regards to point #4, it is true that people want to be like the people with the $40,000 cables, but it is easier and much more satisfying to the people nay-saying against the people with those cables (or cars) to try to get others who "believe" in the difference in cables to switch to saysing along with the naysayers. For those who hear the differences though, it is not possible to do though. As Jon Anderson once said in Tales From Topographic Oceans "We Are Of The Sun, We Can See..."

Greg

rubin

DarqueKnight wrote: »

From time to time in my audio readings I come across bitter, vitriolic, rantings against expensive audio cables from people who can't possibly afford them in 10 of their lifetimes.

In every field of commerce there is super expensive, "carriage trade" merchandise marketed to weathy people. Is a 50 million dollar house, a 1 million dollar car, a 50 thousand dollar men's suit "worth it"? Such things are obviously worth it to some that can afford them. Furthermore, such things wouldn't be made if someone wasn't buying them.

I can see how, in the world of carriage trade goods, a $40,000 audio cable is relatively cheap. The person who would drop $40K on a cable probably eats off a set of china that cost $60K. Although a $40,000 cable may not offer any performance benefits over a $1,000 cable, the fit, finish and materials will be of such a calibre as to earn a place next to the buyer's $180,000 loudspeakers, $80,000 CD player, $100,000 monoblock amps, $30,000 preamp, and $160,000 turntable. Consider that a $220,000 Rolex Masterpiece watch does not tell time any better than my $100 Casio G-Shock. However, the $220,000 Rolex might be just the accessory to go with the rich guy's $50,000 Kiton K-50 suit and $250,000 customized Benz.

The carriage trade really is a different world. Yet, purchases of uber-expensive homes, clothes, cars and other "regular type" goods are applauded. The person who buys a uber-expensive audio item is figuratively measured for a straight jacket.

Really, who's to say that many, if not most, of these peaple railing against the discretionary audio puchases of carriage trade individuals wouldn't buy the same, or even more expensive audio toys, if they were miraculously catapulted to such lofty economic status? If someone had told my college student self that I would one day pay multiple thousands of dollars for a CD player and think nothing of it, I would have laughed them to scorn.

1. Why is it considered heroic to buy a $500,000 Lamborghini, yet considered insanity to buy a $40,000 cable...if one can comfortably afford it?

Yeah, yeah, I've heard all the drivel about everyone can see the difference between a Lamborghini and a Taurus whereas the difference between a $40,000 cable and a $100 cable is no so obvious. Just because it is not obvious to you does not mean it is not obvious to someone who lives in that world.

2. Why do some people worry about what other people do with their money?

3. Why do some people get angry about the price of a luxury audio item that is way out of their financial means?

4. Is this a case of "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against"?

Discuss.

It's one aspect of the human condition, namely jealousy.

DON73

Buy $15,000 cables if you want to but look me in the eye and tell me you can hear the difference between this and say a set of $100 cables and I'll call BS and challenge you to prove it. Cable lovers are far more likely to bash those of us who believe a set of $50 cables are overpriced. This thread is intended to do just that. Super wealthy people do foolish things....so what. Can anyone here say that $50,000 cables are a value & worth the cost? I don't GARA what cables you buy but stop calling me a "naysayer"and I'll refrain from calling you an idiot.

madmax

Naysayer!

steveinaz

I've seen members here claim bankruptcy, and a week later talk about equipment upgrades--foolishness isn't limited to the wealthy.

Toolfan66

DON73 wrote: »

Buy $15,000 cables if you want to but look me in the eye and tell me you can hear the difference between this and say a set of $100 cables and I'll call BS and challenge you to prove it. Cable lovers are far more likely to bash those of us who believe a set of $50 cables are overpriced. This thread is intended to do just that. Super wealthy people do foolish things....so what. Can anyone here say that $50,000 cables are a value & worth the cost? I don't GARA what cables you buy but stop calling me a "naysayer"and I'll refrain from calling you an idiot.

Kettle Black??? no one put your name out there. I see who proved who is the Idiot Naysayer..:rolleyes:

steveinaz

Personally, I think it's silly that people get so worked up about it. Do what you want, your system--your money. Who the hell cares what other people think?

cokewithvanilla

I don't think anyone was railing against the cost simply because of the cost... I also don't think people were talking about the goods you are talking about...

I would like to think that discussions here pertain to goods that we have sampled, and can purchase. I also think that arguments like that are argued on logical points, and not some intangible 'wow factor'. Most people here buy gear to enhance their sound. I believe the previous thread mentioned the B stock cables that were recently offered (which are not in the class you have described here)... it seems many buyers are less than satisfied with their performance, however, none were dissatisfied (that I can recall) with the product as a whole.

Perhaps it is a dumb question to ask why there is so much markup or whatnot, the obvious answer is that someone will pay for it. Perhaps the answer is in the question itself... but I don't think anyone here is railing on something they can't afford, just for the sake of doing so.

It's funny, because if someone posted a thread in the clubhouse 'railing' on some new diet pill that was supposed to actually magically transform all that extra fat on your body to muscle, none of you would be like "stop railing on the product". Here at CP, we seem to have a set of standards of what products we are allowed to dismiss as 'snake oil' or simply something that doesn't work. Cables are not one of these things. Thing is, if all of you all had the same standards for every stupid product as you do for cables, you would own everything labeled "As seen on TV" and would be considered gullible by the standards held by the rest of the world.

You can't simply say that you tried all these cables and believe that there is no difference without someone telling you that you weren't listening right, there are other problems with your system, or you need to try more cables. When people mention double blind ABX testing, which is considered sufficient evidence in other areas, they are told that the tests are flawed.... this type of logic just wouldn't float with certain products.. .but with cables, it seems to work.

rubin

Including power,ic's, and speaker wire I spent about about $1700.00 and I'm totally satisfied.