Education in this country

steveinaz

The peer eval "portion" would only be a small part of the overall evaluation. Trust me, it works. People tend to work "together" far better when they know their peers have an opinion on their rating. The senior rater would determine the weight of the peer eval comments.

Ain't teamwork great?

Of course alot of it is subjective. So do we throw our hands in the air and give up? Charisma---remember walking thru your high school when you were a kid, and there was always certain teachers that the kids really liked? That's charisma. People know charisma when they see it. Charisma is teaching with a purpose, not standing up there, droning on while one eye is on the clock.

In my experience, the only people that worry about subjectivity are the ones who need to be worried about it.

Evaluations should be done quarterly, with a final Eval, that goes forward in the permanent record. The purpose of the first 3 evals is to discuss strengths/weaknesses, and what needs to be done to correct weaknesses. This gives the teacher plenty of opportunities to improve before the final evaluation is done. This also allows the senior rater to focus on specific projects/ideas coming in the next quarter, and expectations associated with those activities.

While you're picking my plan apart, I'm curious what solutions you have? It's easy to arm-chair quarterback, give me some positive input---let's move forward....

Demiurge

Pycroft wrote: »

You think school boards should decide what teacher's are "good" and what teachers are "bad" and decide on hiring and firing. Most school board members have NO background in education, most have other full time jobs they must attend to, and it's usually hard enough to get them to show up to meetings once a month let alone let them in classrooms to judge the merits of the education the students are getting. How would you restructure the school board? What should their purpose be? Also, how are school boards flawed because of unions? I think it may be a better statement that unions make the buerocracy (Not sure if that's spelled correctly) of a school difficult in every way, which also complicates school boards. I'm not sure unions have direct contact with school boards except during negotiations where the school's union members that are on the negotiations team meet with the school board and superintendant in order to figure out contracts. If you think that board members just give in to the union demands, you are wrong. I've seen first hand it's a long, difficult process, usually ending in a mediator making recommendations and lots of give and take.

James

I reject the notion that one is not qualified to speak on matters of holding teachers accountable or exemplifying teachers who are an asset to the school if one does not have a degree in education. I can identify a bad doctor without having to know how to repair a heart valve. Speaking of doctors -- they have peer review boards in hospitals.

I happen to think Steve has a pretty good idea about peer review. Not only would I have peer review, I'd also make sure that these teachers are appointed or elected to this body, either through elected school board members, or by the general public on a ballot. This would not be a lifetime appointment or elected position. I'd structure it in a way that would make sure it was revolving.

I explained in earlier posts the problem with the unions and the school boards. There's a conflict of interest there in the current system (in Wisconsin). It further highlights why public workers should not have the ability to collectively bargain with the government, because they can't. What that actually means, and what they're really doing, is collectively bargaining with the taxpayers.

We can see what happens when the taxpayers use their voice. It quickly becomes clear to anyone that for many (not all) its all about the money and benefits, and not about the kids -- as so many claim.

Its quite clear to me that the taxpayers are willing to compensate the best and brightest public teachers handsomely. If the public sector teachers don't like their pay or benefits, they can always quit. If the general public lacks teachers because of poor pay and benefits, we'll need to give them more to bring them back to the profession in the public sector.

What's going on here right now isn't anything approaching a heavy burden. I'm willing to bet that not a single teacher would quit if they had to make modest contributions to their pensions (which they get back, BTW) or their health care.

steveinaz

The peer evaluations also sometimes HIGHLIGHT the quiet, excellent teacher that doesn't like to blow their own horn, and allows them to be recognized. I think we all have big respect for co-workers that perform, I know I do. I truly enjoy seeing the good people get promoted--it's refreshing.

The funny paradox about peer evaluations; your peers tend to be harder on you than management is, because your peers know your "dirty little secrets"...LOL seriously. They also know alot more about your character.

tonyb

I also think matching students to a teacher should somehow take place as they progress in years. Some teachers excell at teaching slower learning kids, where as others may not have the patience for it. A slow learner in a fast moving class is bound for failure, but given the right teacher,has a chance at learning. Don't know if this happens today or to what extent.
Why could we not look around the world, see what works,what doesn't,adjust our system as times change ? Unions are holding the education system back. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Dave makes a good point, how do you tell a good docter from a bad one ? Eventualy it's reputation,knowledge,word of mouth, to name a few. Have you ever stood in a group of parents,talking about teachers ? They will comment on which teachers are the best. how do they know ? By the results they see in their child. By the feed back they get, the communication with that teacher. How observant that teacher is with their child,and over all concern in the progress of that child that they share with you.
If you keep telling yourself you can't do something, you can't change,you can't evaluate a teacher, you can't fire the bad ones, you can't control costs, then the taxpayer and the education system are doomed.
You can't go into a prize fight with one hand tied behind your back. Those that are good at problem solving know you have to consider everything with specific goals in mind. What is the goal up in Wisconsin ? Surely it's not the education system or the kids. Whats the goal of our education system as a whole in this country ?
From what I can tell, collective bargaining is the goal. After all, you don't get together to collective bargain for less of something,always more. Which is why public unions and taxpayers are always butting heads.
Let me ask this, why couldn't teachers bargain on their own for individual contracts with the school district they serve ? Much the same way as the private sector does.

sucks2beme

The problem is you can't split students up by learning ability.
There's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Slow ones get left behind,
fast learners get bored out of their mind. Teachers get fustrated.
Welcome to large class sizes.

markmarc

Even though I'm a private school teacher, I feel compelled to answer some of the points brought up, 90% of which are not only fair but very good. The last 10%, I'll let those go as passion over-ruling logic and common sense.

Like public schools, private institutions have salary scales for the teachers based on years of experience. This year my salary will be approx. 75% of public school teachers, a 401k program with a max kick in of 6% of my salary by the parish. I have no complaints about my my health benefit in the least. Even though I give up 25% in salary, I have class size on average in the past 13 years of 20 students. If I want to try something new or take a field trip I talk with the principal, at worst I wait a day to get my answer.The lack of endless levels of management, combined with overwhelming parental support, makes my choice of lower pay worth it every day.

Interesting facts:
Since the late 1990's here in Oregon, tenure no longer exists. In return, the process to fire a veteran teacher of many years does require a couple steps. This was put into place to protect the high-salaried veteran teachers from being let go just to save $$. In the 12 or so years well under 100 Oregon teachers have been released after due process.

This is due in large measure to many districts and unions agreeing to a version of the Toledo or Akron system developed in the 1980's. A struggling teacher is identified and given the option to leave, or to enter a mentoring program under a master teacher in the building. After one year of working together, one of three grades are given: completion, a second year of mentoring, or dismissal. It has become a very effective in the school districts that use it, as well as remove the stigma of unions protecting the inferior members. The truly bad teachers disappear quite quickly.

I will say that every teacher who has been in the same school for two years or more has a pretty good handle on the quality level of their fellow teachers. Peer review can be implemented, but in no way should it be the majority value in deciding whether to keep or let go another teacher. That really does need to be a role of the principal.

As for the bashing of principals by some posters, in my experience poor principals are not common. Most average 70-80 weeks, and since 2000 have had to add many extra roles as budgets have tightened. The rule books they have to follow are at least twice as thick as they were in the mid-80's. Dealing with the various legal morass alone is nightmarish. Add to that supervising dozens of staff both professional and hourly, endless calls and emails (my principal deals with over 100 emails a day), disciplinary issues, endless paperwork, along with crisis that occurs every hour or so. That doesn't even include budgetary meetings, assemblies, and teacher observations. I'm not an apologist, just trying to point out how incredibly difficult the job is, and why 95% of teachers have absolutely no desire to move into administration. I was recommended by fellow staffers as having the personality to handle such an occupation, but after taking a training course and doing some shadowing I recognized that I didn't have the rare skill set it takes to succeed.

Once again I stress that PARENTS are the key to a student's success. The occasional poor teacher can and will be overcome, poor or non-parenting is an endless train wreck.

mrbigbluelight

Demiurge wrote: »

There's no precedent for senators in this state doing what these weenies did. There's a law, but no enforcement mechanism.

Hmm ..... so the Powers That Be wrote a law that could possibly affect them and "accidentally" left out any enforcement mechanism ? Hmmm.....

Demiurge wrote:

Simply applying for and receiving a job as a government worker entitles that person to lavish benefits and pay as a condition of their employment. These conditions were 'negotiated' by unions who fund the campaigns of politicians through the underhanded mechanism of taking money from the public workers through forced unionization as a condition of employment, regardless of ideology, and funneling it to said campaigns (Democrats). If you don't see what's wrong with that, you're beyond help.

Well, I see with what's wrong with that. Got your facts (and the interpretation thereof) wrong.

Demiurge wrote:

The benefits have nothing to do with working harder (A stupid philosophy, by the way. One should work smarter, not harder).

Well, there's goes the old Protestant Work Ethic !
(with no intended slight to person of other denominations or relgions).
And by "smarter", I assume you mean, "Get the other guy to do your work ?".

demiurge wrote:

Such benefit packages simply do not exist in the private sector. You can find exceptions to the rule like with most things

C'mon now. No fair straddling the fence.

mrbigbluelight wrote:

Yes

demiurge wrote:

Fantastic insight, 1000 watt.

Well, there's something we can completely agree on; I graciously accept your compliment.
The truth, while brief, is still enlightening.
(BTW, you left out a couple of digits .... fixed !)

demiurge wrote:

What's the consequences of irresponsibility in the public sector? None.

Quite frequently, it means a promotion.
Speaking from observed, first-hand, personal cases.
Speaking of administrative level positions; have not observed this in the working ranks.

Demiurge wrote: »

Almost all of my property taxes go to fund the schools in my city and I don't have any kids. What am I getting for my money but dumber kids year in and year out?

Then go to school board meetings.
Address the Board either in closed session (you can name names, etc but you have to sign up in advance) or open session.
Usually a time limit to speak, though. 3 minutes is atypical, and if they don't care for you, your 3 minutes starts from the time they say, "Next please".

demiurge wrote:

Its the fault of the parents? Not in most cases, but in some, absolutely.

Although the student bears ultimate responsibility, I'd say in 95% of the time, it is the parents "fault".

demiurge wrote:

I feel the worst for all the good teachers out there who are hamstrung by their unions

And without the unions, the good teachers would become un-hamstrung and be able to now ..... do what ?

demiurge wrote:

The school board? They're beholden to the unions.

Actually that isn't the case. Just speaking from experience, but that is NOT the case.

But let's just say it is.
Get rid of the unions, get rid of collective bargaining, and then the board can deal directly with each individual teacher ?
Afraid that won't work.
Dealing with a Board, even with a union and collective bargaining, is rather ... well .... sad.
Speaking from real-world experience, it's not uncommon for 59% of the Board members to not having the qualifications to run a snow cone stand, much less a large school district. Nice place to socialize, though.

demiurge wrote:

Its no wonder why kids who come from families that can't afford private school, but get to go through voucher programs that highlight the dismal failure that are public schools (in general), succeed.

Not unlike a distilling process.
What boils off and collected is much purer water than the dreg-infested water that is left behind in the pot.
But the law requires you still have to deal with the dregs.

sucks2beme wrote: »

It's all the other stuff. Staff and overhead costs raise like crazy. Should I also mention how many DISD(dallas school) managers have been jailed in recent years? And countless others should of been.

Mismanagement if not outright fraud. See it ALL the time.
School districts aren't going down because the custodial staff makes a decent wage with benefits.

sucks2beme wrote: »

I'm out in the burbs, but I still see all sorts of crap happening that runsup costs. No classroom space? No lunchroom space? Solution: build big honkin new football stadiums.

Cases in point: Auburn and Oregon (I think it's Oregon). Worth looking up.

sucks2beme wrote: »

Outsource food and maintenance-big savings?
No, seems it's much more expensive. Schools have become a new way for people in charge to get rich. Control contracts, and you have the perfect cash cow.

You, sir, have hit the nail on the head.
Not being sacrilegious, but one could bet the souls of their children and grandchildren on that being a fact.

Demiurge wrote: »

The school boards are flawed because of the unions. I'd completely restructure the school boards.

That would be interesting. :rolleyes:

mrbigbluelight

markmarc wrote: »

This is due in large measure to many districts and unions agreeing to a version of the Toledo or Akron system developed in the 1980's. A struggling teacher is identified and given the option to leave, or to enter a mentoring program under a master teacher in the building. After one year of working together, one of three grades are given: completion, a second year of mentoring, or dismissal. It has become a very effective in the school districts that use it, as well as remove the stigma of unions protecting the inferior members. The truly bad teachers disappear quite quickly.

Thank you for sharing that information that details real world solutions that can work.

markmarc wrote: »

Once again I stress that PARENTS are the key to a student's success. The occasional poor teacher can and will be overcome, poor or non-parenting is an endless train wreck.

Right on the mark.

steveinaz

There's no doubt that some discipline and manners (and basic skills) need to be taught in the home--and that isn't happening in many cases. Schools also need the power to discipline again, without fear of liability. This spoiling of our children does nothing but hurt them; makes mom & dad feel great, but it's bad for the child in the long run. Being a parent is tough, if you don't have the chops to do it right, don't be a parent. It shouldn't be on school staff to raise your children, that is YOUR job.

If you're offended by that comment, you ARE the problem.

inspiredsports

I just kissed my teacher wife as she headed out the door to her classroom.

We are BOTH happy Ohio Senate Bill 5 was passed last night and it's now off to the House. It's a great first step that will end up both improving the quality of education and solving our massive budget woes.

Framing these issues a class warfare against the middle class is pure prevarication as teachers here in Ohio live lifestyles far above the norm. I've known my wife's teacher coworkers for 3 decades and not one is suffering financially. Where they are suffering is that some are guilty of being worth less than half of what they would earn if they were employed in the "real world".

steveinaz

All truly competent/passionate teachers are "for" whatever will improve our ability to educate. Thumbs up to your wife! She's far braver than I. I wouldn't last 3 days as a teacher, the first time I went upside jr's head for being a smart ****, I'd be in jail.

cstmar01

steveinaz wrote: »

There's no doubt that some discipline and manners (and basic skills) need to be taught in the home--and that isn't happening in many cases. Schools also need the power to discipline again, without fear of liability. This spoiling of our children does nothing but hurt them; makes mom & dad feel great, but it's bad for the child in the long run. Being a parent is tough, if you don't have the chops to do it right, don't be a parent. It shouldn't be on school staff to raise your children, that is YOUR job.

If you're offended by that comment, you ARE the problem.

So true. Too many people having children that don't know how to raise them or even want them, yet they find that the goverment gives them money for X # of kids so they keep having them.

School is not a babysitter, if you can't raise your child correctly, then you shouldn't be having children.

Oh and private schools are no better than public. I went to one from preschool all the way up to 8th grade. There were 80 kids in my class. Right now out of those 80, 10 are in jail, about 20 of them never finished college because they dropped out, and I think about 5-7 had kids in high school.

Out of those 80 only about 15 were able to complete college and are now going for higher education or hold a decent job (not flipping burgers or selling drugs). Sad sometimes, but the private schools seem to take whatever they can get because well, thats how they pay for their stuff.

markmarc

Inspired:
I read this post on a news forum. As an Ohio citizen, do you know how true or not it is. Just honestly curious, nothing more.

"2001, Kasich took a job as managing director of the Columbus investment banking division of Lehman Brothers. He remained at the company until its collapse in September 2008. During 2008, Lehman Brothers paid Kasich $587,175 in salary, bonuses, and other benefits. Over $400,000 of that bonus is credited to Kasich using his political connections to facilitate investment of $480 million from the state pension fund with Lehman Brothers. That money was a lost to the state."

dorourke07

Markmarc - The statement is true. You can find indepth info on it in any of the major Ohio newspapers. He flipped out of his Ohio job to Wallstreet and then got his buddies to move all of the pension investments. He's not repsonsible for the collapse of Lehman and was not big in the firm but he refers alot to his big time CEO type experience. So was he really a nobody or was he a failure at being a CEO, not sure. You can spin it very negative or positive I guess depending whose side your on. Political adds during the campaign showed him saying," I'm on Wallstreet" then on a different interview,"I'm a Columbus guy". Either way, us Ohio taxpayers will have to cover it. I have no idea how he was even a candidate let alone how he won.

tonyb

markmarc wrote: »

Inspired:
I read this post on a news forum. As an Ohio citizen, do you know how true or not it is. Just honestly curious, nothing more.

"2001, Kasich took a job as managing director of the Columbus investment banking division of Lehman Brothers. He remained at the company until its collapse in September 2008. During 2008, Lehman Brothers paid Kasich $587,175 in salary, bonuses, and other benefits. Over $400,000 of that bonus is credited to Kasich using his political connections to facilitate investment of $480 million from the state pension fund with Lehman Brothers. That money was a lost to the state."

Whats that got to do with anything here ? So he made a commision off of buisness he brought in, like any other salesman out there.
Thats what investment bankers do, try and get people,corporations, to invest in their firm.

tonyb

dorourke07 wrote: »

You can spin it very negative or positive I guess depending whose side your on. Political adds during the campaign showed him saying," I'm on Wallstreet" then on a different interview,"I'm a Columbus guy". Either way, us Ohio taxpayers will have to cover it. I have no idea how he was even a candidate let alone how he won.

Aren't you spinning it ? I guess it must be impossible to be from Columbus and work on Wall St. ?
Obviously he won because the majority of the people in your state liked his message.
Still, whats the point in this ?

markmarc

tonyb wrote: »

Whats that got to do with anything here ? So he made a commision off of buisness he brought in, like any other salesman out there.
Thats what investment bankers do, try and get people,corporations, to invest in their firm.

It was an honest question, and very pertinent to the discussion as school districts across the country are required by state pension rules to cover lost funding due to market drops. That means less money for the classrooms, which means looking for financial savings from employee costs which average 85% of the typical school district.

Some would also argue that putting someone in charge of a state budget who previously cost the state such a massive loss isn't the wisest choice. While others would argue your point that his ability to get people to invest in his product (in this case Ohio) is a solid reason to have him in the Gov's office.

cnh

Of course such things are 'relevant'. Does anyone here think that a state budget is ENTIRELY 'local', is not linked INFINITELY to the Global Economic system? If so then we don't live on the same planet.

Economic interdependencies are so GREAT and so COMPLEX that when I see various Governors talking TOUGH. I have to laugh to myself...thinking, poor sucker doesn't have a clue! One of my colleagues teaches an entire course that follows cocaine production, distribution, and sales and addiction from Colombia to the U.S. YOU'D BE SURPRISED TO LEARN JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE, businesses, banks, etc. are involved in that chain! No ASTONISHED!

Everything is 'relevant'! Everything! Follow 'any' economic chain and you'll realize how very many people are involved. How much more complex economic relations are than simply notions like: Unions, Benefits, Gov't workers, etc. Tip of the iceberg my friends, tip of the iceberg. You want to solve economic problems? You have to look UNDER THE WATER!
cnh

kevhed72

tonyb wrote: »

Good start Steve, but you can get way too deep into problems with our system. Watched " Waiting for Superman " the other day,and it gave a good look into the problems our education system is up against. Starts out slow,but stay with it. I believe good teachers should be paid well, just like anyone else in the private sector that excells at their job, but you also need to have the ability to get rid of the losers in the teaching profession too.

Saw the movie last night - excellent and politically unbiased IMO. I did come out of the movie thinking 'How did the schools ever allow some of this stuff written into the teachers' union contract(s)?'. There are proven methods out there to improve education for everyone in this country, so I think as with any business or enterprise, it ultimately falls on Management.

tonyb

markmarc wrote: »

It was an honest question, and very pertinent to the discussion as school districts across the country are required by state pension rules to cover lost funding due to market drops. That means less money for the classrooms, which means looking for financial savings from employee costs which average 85% of the typical school district.

Some would also argue that putting someone in charge of a state budget who previously cost the state such a massive loss isn't the wisest choice. While others would argue your point that his ability to get people to invest in his product (in this case Ohio) is a solid reason to have him in the Gov's office.

He costs the state money ? Or the economic downfall in general ? You make it sound like he personally was the reason the economy took a dump. I call that spinning. Everyone took it on the chin, not just Ohio.
Everyone has been hit, hence everyone has to adjust, cut costs,spending. As a leader, any worth their salt anyway, has to look at all options, just as you do in your private lives. Once you start saying you can't touch this or that, nothing gets done.

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

Of course such things are 'relevant'. Does anyone here think that a state budget is ENTIRELY 'local', is not linked INFINITELY to the Global Economic system? If so then we don't live on the same planet.

Economic interdependencies are so GREAT and so COMPLEX that when I see various Governors talking TOUGH. I have to laugh to myself...thinking, poor sucker doesn't have a clue! One of my colleagues teaches an entire course that follows cocaine production, distribution, and sales and addiction from Colombia to the U.S. YOU'D BE SURPRISED TO LEARN JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE, businesses, banks, etc. are involved in that chain! No ASTONISHED!

Everything is 'relevant'! Everything! Follow 'any' economic chain and you'll realize how very many people are involved. How much more complex economic relations are than simply notions like: Unions, Benefits, Gov't workers, etc. Tip of the iceberg my friends, tip of the iceberg. You want to solve economic problems? You have to look UNDER THE WATER!


cnh

Please explain what cocaine has to do with education,unions,state budgets,teachers. Global economics has been around since before this country was even started. Makes a nice buzz word though. Sure, global economies are somewhat inter dependant on each other, no big news there, but you have to control those things you can. States want more control over their budgets and not be forced into agreements that no honest man can pay, thanks Bruce Springsteen for that line. If your telling me that I have to pay x amount, then I'm telling you I can no longer afford it, lets move on from there.

steveinaz

What's going on with our country right now, bad as it seems, is needed. We needed a wake-up call on all of this over-spending and handouts. We will be better for it in the long run, but it's going to get alot more painful before it's all said and done. This country is about to get a big dose of tough love, and sometimes that's exactly what is needed to get people up off their asses, and stop their dependencies.

jcandy

steveinaz wrote: »

There's no doubt that some discipline and manners (and basic skills) need to be taught in the home--and that isn't happening in many cases.

I agree. The discipline and manners deficit is an evident problem with the big kids on this board, too. Are you ever shocked by the explosion of rudeness and arrogance that occurs here when, for example, pseudo-science is questioned or unfounded assertions are challenged? I am of the opinion (already expressed by others here) that poor educational outcomes in the USA are more the fault of parents than teachers. When the general social atmosphere is so materialistic and anti-intellectual, I can't see how teachers alone can solve the problem.

cnh

I agree with what Steve says above. But what I'd like to see is an entire state budget and all the banks, businesses, investments and so on that are 'in' there. That's the reason for the cocaine tangent..you'd need to read the book, but it shows how many legitimate businesses and banks handle the monies from that heinous industry and also profit from it? Calling something a buzz word does not exclude it as a tool for analysis. When I'm teaching the history of the expansion of European Civilization, the most important tool is looking at the nature of the global political economy and monies made from such things as the slave trade, and the competition between rising European nations for that trade, for example. The ramifications of that trade are still with us, in some ways. See Europe and the People Without History by one of the greatest Anthropologists of the last century. Eric Wolf.

Don't worry "I'm" not asking you to pay anymore. Personally I've never lost a night's worth of sleep over how much I pay in taxes or increases and it's not because I'm wealthy. It's probably what might make our approaches different.

I'm perfectly willing to hear a rational argument about how many OTHER things we can cut from something like the Wisconsin budget (not my state). In fact in my state, we have an idiot for a Governor at the moment who will do more damage than I can even imagine.

I'm all for cuts. But I'd like to see the cuts go ALL AROUND. Let's get EVERYBODY in there, 'shared suffering' makes us a community that cares about each other. I'd like to see 'everyone' talking to 'everyone'. Businesses saying to workers what can we do, workers saying to businesses we're willing to work with you. I don't believe in overvaluing one side at the expense of the other.

cnh

tonyb

To overvalue one side at the expense of the other assumes both sides are equal to begin with....which they are not.
Your tangent on cocaine or slave trading as it applies to world economics either past or present is irrelevent. This thread is about education,the system that controls it, the quality of it,and the costs associated with it and how that meshes with the public pool of coin. If you like to start another thread on the history of slave trading,cocaine, world economies, thats cool, be happy to join in. Was hopeing to keep this one about education and it's related fields. Don't see how slave trading and cocaine profits fit into that.

cnh

No problem there...sorry you feel that I digress from the real issues. Perhaps another thread (or entire class) would prove informative? I'm an accommodating kind of guy.

You believe both sides are not equal? OK--we'll go with that. So, when you eliminate one side, will the other then be 'equal' to what no longer exists? All I'm trying to do is follow you and not take the lead because I wish to understand, honestly.

Is 'education' the most significant part of a state's budget? Would 'you' consider that an honest and thread-based question? And if it is, let's go with that! If not, we'll try another angle. What I want to do is to see if there are other angles to this or only 'one'. Is that fair?

If that's OK would it be 'acceptable' to talk about other parts of the budget we could cut and compare the savings with those in the sector of Education? Or is that not allowed? Well, perhaps, since the cuts listed above include, in some cases all or most 'public employees'.

So are we mostly talking about services and the people who man them?


cnh

inspiredsports

markmarc wrote: »

Inspired:
I read this post on a news forum. As an Ohio citizen, do you know how true or not it is. Just honestly curious, nothing more.

"2001, Kasich took a job as managing director of the Columbus investment banking division of Lehman Brothers. He remained at the company until its collapse in September 2008. During 2008, Lehman Brothers paid Kasich $587,175 in salary, bonuses, and other benefits. Over $400,000 of that bonus is credited to Kasich using his political connections to facilitate investment of $480 million from the state pension fund with Lehman Brothers. That money was a lost to the state."

Wow, you figured it out!

Yes marcmarc, John Kasich not only lost $480,000,000 in Ohio, but he was single-handedly masterminded the entire scheme that flushed $4,000,000,000,000+ (yes, that's TRILLION) out of the market during those 8 trading days between October 1st and October 10th, 2008.

He also single-handedly caused millions of investors to simultaneously dump their equities, and he single-handedly caused automated trading programs to sell and initiate runs on the banks. He caused the entire world to lose confidence in the US.

He spearheaded the unrest in the middle east that set in motion the forces that will soon have you spending $7 per gallon for gas.

Last, if you had a portfolio that dropped in value, I'm sure he alone pocketed that loss.

Thank you for your detective work.



P.S.: you will not know this for years, but U.S. equity firms were basically attacked by outside forces in a concerted effort to accomplish exactly what has come to pass, but you can blame Wall Street if that makes you happy.

inspiredsports

jcandy wrote: »

I agree. The discipline and manners deficit is an evident problem with the big kids on this board, too. Are you ever shocked by the explosion of rudeness and arrogance that occurs here when, for example, pseudo-science is questioned or unfounded assertions are challenged? I am of the opinion (already expressed by others here) that poor educational outcomes in the USA are more the fault of parents than teachers. When the general social atmosphere is so materialistic and anti-intellectual, I can't see how teachers alone can solve the problem.

You should put on your robe and little slippies, go grab your pipe and a botique beer or wine, and read up on California issues leaving Ohio to the "big boys" :biggrin:

jcandy

inspiredsports wrote: »

You should put on your robe and little slippies, go grab your pipe and a botique beer or wine, and read up on California issues leaving Ohio to the "big boys" :biggrin:

I'll be happy to leave the issues to anyone who understands them. Cue the crickets.

markmarc

inspiredsports wrote: »

Wow, you figured it out!

Yes marcmarc, John Kasich not only lost $480,000,000 in Ohio, but he was single-handedly masterminded the entire scheme that flushed $4,000,000,000,000+ (yes, that's TRILLION) out of the market during those 8 trading days between October 1st and October 10th, 2008.

He also single-handedly caused millions of investors to simultaneously dump their equities, and he single-handedly caused automated trading programs to sell and initiate runs on the banks. He caused the entire world to lose confidence in the US.

He spearheaded the unrest in the middle east that set in motion the forces that will soon have you spending $7 per gallon for gas.

Last, if you had a portfolio that dropped in value, I'm sure he alone pocketed that loss.

Thank you for your detective work.



P.S.: you will not know this for years, but U.S. equity firms were basically attacked by outside forces in a concerted effort to accomplish exactly what has come to pass, but you can blame Wall Street if that makes you happy.

Issues today?:biggrin: