You don't need close to 200wpc

12467…13

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,770
    edited January 2011
    we're definitely in violent agreement, then! :-)

    Maybe we need another thread about really high-sensitivity, dynamic loudspeakers? hmm... maybe not, given the aegis of this forum.

    604EalaBillfort.jpg
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited January 2011
    This is why BAT is one of the best high power amplifiers you can get, very refined... high power amplifiers are fundamental to hi-fi as such quality will be sacrificed for market hype..of course the same is done for low powered quality amplifiers. If your looking though for an intimate type rig to play music at low db.....leave the big power boys.

    RT1
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  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    edited January 2011
    Slightly in fear of over-simplifying this, because I'm not well-educated in the technical aspects (let alone the jargon), but I'm assuming this whole max-headroom is better than max-power assertion explains why it seems easier to reproduce electric guitar-driven music than music that is mostly "acoustic" in nature. I was listening to some acoustic guitar-based music today and thinking about this. To enhance the clarity and dynamics of acoustic music, I'm guessing I need to be looking at specifications other than wpc... which don't always seem to be readily available. :confused:
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,770
    edited January 2011
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    Slightly in fear of over-simplifying this, because I'm not well-educated in the technical aspects (let alone the jargon), but I'm assuming this whole max-headroom is better than max-power assertion explains why it seems easier to reproduce electric guitar-driven music than music that is mostly "acoustic" in nature. I was listening to some acoustic guitar-based music today and thinking about this. To enhance the clarity and dynamics of acoustic music, I'm guessing I need to be looking at specifications other than wpc... which don't always seem to be readily available. :confused:

    Typically I think it's actually due more to the extreme compression applied to "pop" (including rock) recordings as opposed to the more intrinsically dynamic mastering of jazz and some other forms of acoustic (non-electric/amplified) music.

    Big stiff power supplies help deliver "instantaneous" high power when transients demand it.
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  • jmwest1970
    jmwest1970 Posts: 846
    edited January 2011
    I don't have the exposure to hi-fi as alot of you do, but I'll chime in. The few times I've heard really good quality amplifiers I've been very impressed with low wattage output. With those high current and low wattage amplifiers headroom isn't even a question. It's there....definitely there. Now since my audio income makes me a mid-fi kind of guy I do understand the mopar attitude. 200 or more wpc can help with the idea that you have the power for those very dynamic passages. It does improve the quality at low volume and allows you to relive those concert moments from our young and dumb years. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I thought I'd share it anyway.
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  • George Grand
    George Grand Posts: 12,258
    edited January 2011
    Couple hundred extra watts never hurt anybody.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited January 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Phil, beyond the statement above I never talked about HT and if people read the article they would know my original post had NOTHING to do with HT. And yes, for me multi channel amps and expensive speakers aren't nec to enjoy HT. It's a movie and most of the effects aren't even real.

    The EMo reference and analogy is ludicris, simply ludicris. I never said anything like that nor infered it.

    Now if other people have brought up HT in this thread, I can't help it.

    This thread has gone is a few differnent directions, which is fine and is typical of a discussion. But the fact remains you don't need 200wpc.

    H9

    Brock, my response was NOT implying that you said the EMO/DVD combo was all that's really needed for a steller two channel system, good heavens man you know me better than that, but believe me there are folks that would believe that. But a statement like "That's all you really need" for HT based on your brothers system brings the analogy front & center. Just like you aren't into HT, others aren't into two channel & would be perfectly happy with the EMO/DVD combo as you would be with a basic HT.

    And you're right, you don't need 200w for a killer two channel rig. Trust me I've heard 6w that defied belief.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited January 2011
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Brock, my response was NOT implying that you said the EMO/DVD combo was all that's really needed for a steller two channel system, good heavens man you know me better than that, but believe me there are folks that would believe that. But a statement like "That's all you really need" for HT based on your brothers system brings the analogy front & center. Just like you aren't into HT, others aren't into two channel & would be perfectly happy with the EMO/DVD combo as you would be with a basic HT.

    And you're right, you don't need 200w for a killer two channel rig. Trust me I've heard 6w that defied belief.

    Gotcha Phil, I guess I just interpreted your post wrong.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • nclh7
    nclh7 Posts: 38
    edited January 2011
    You can do a lot more harm to speakers under-powering them than overpowering them. None of the speakers I own wouldn't make a 100 wpc amp clip at even low listening levels.

    Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. One is at 250wpc and the other at 450wpc.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,770
    edited January 2011
    There is some truth to that; a solid state amplifier driven to clipping can easily take out a tweeter with relatively high power levels of very high frequency transients that result as the output devices "hit the DC rails". This is much less likely with a low powered vacuum tube amplifier for a couple of reasons - primarily because vacuum tube devices tend to compress (go nonlinear) with some graciousness before the "brick wall" clipping that a transistor will exhibit. This effect is prized in guitar amplifiers and it's a nice safety net in hifi amps. The output transformers would also tend to filter out VHF transients as well (although the bandwidth of a really good OPT at moderate power levels can be stunningly wide).

    The 3.5 watt Paramours (SE 2A3 power amps) I have in the living room are pretty much incapable of damaging a loudspeaker driver.
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  • danz1906
    danz1906 Posts: 5,144
    edited January 2011
    nclh7 wrote: »
    You can do a lot more harm to speakers under-powering them than overpowering them. None of the speakers I own wouldn't make a 100 wpc amp clip at even low listening levels.

    Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. One is at 250wpc and the other at 450wpc.

    Agreed, more power is better. But the quality of the Amp is most important!
    Most of the Better Amps run in Class A up to 10watts or so,then switch to
    Class A/B.
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited January 2011
    nclh7 wrote: »
    You can do a lot more harm to speakers under-powering them than overpowering them. None of the speakers I own wouldn't make a 100 wpc amp clip at even low listening levels.

    Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. One is at 250wpc and the other at 450wpc.

    But it's not about raw wpc. I could make my 125wpc amp clip sooner than my 30wpc amp. Wpc ratings are really not a great way to decide on an amplifier.

    So while I agree 100% underpowering can damage a speaker more than overpowering them, but the published wpc should not be used solely to make that decison. This applies to SS and Tube power.

    Again, I'll state FTR I will not own another uber powered amp. It's not at all necessary unless you have a specific situation where the power is needed as in difficult to drive speakers or a gigantic room. My pursuit will still be Single Ended Pure Class A and very simple gain paths. The clarity, imaging, texture, dynamics and definition of such amps is simply superb.

    That's where I'm at in my journey and I don't see it changing anytime soon

    YMMV

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2011
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Maybe we need another thread about really high-sensitivity, dynamic loudspeakers?

    I highly agree!!! After getting into this type of speaker I feel as if I had missed the boat for many years.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited January 2011
    I've never been a fan of high-sensitivity, dynamic loudspeakers, but then again most of my experience with those types of speakers has been horn-loaded types and mainly Klipsch. It would be great to have a thread on them so I could learn more about them and what is available to try.
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,770
    edited January 2011
    dkg999 wrote: »
    ... but then again most of my experience with those types of speakers has been horn-loaded types and mainly Klipsch...

    hmmm, I think I see your problem there... :-)

    One word, Benjamin: Altec.
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited January 2011
    George Grand wrote: »
    Couple hundred extra watts never hurt anybody.

    :biggrin: I love you George, you just have a way of cutting through the BS, saying it straight out & keeping it simple, you my kind of man!

    Sends kisses in your direction.:smile:
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • sda2mike
    sda2mike Posts: 3,131
    edited January 2011
    cfrizz wrote: »
    :biggrin: I love you George, you just have a way of cutting through the BS, saying it straight out & keeping it simple, you my kind of man!

    Sends kisses in your direction.:smile:

    lucky george! you're getting 405wpc kisses!:tongue:
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited January 2011
    joeparaski wrote: »
    I'm also the guy that built a 466 cubic inch big block with a fuel injected supercharged engine for the street back in the day. Did it go any faster than a well thought out small block setup...no, and it may have been slower.

    But I bet that BB sounded better... :biggrin:
    Jake
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2011
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    One word, Benjamin: Altec.

    Another word for you Benjamin: Zu :wink:
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,223
    edited January 2011
    Great Thread!!! Where the hell have I been????

    While my Adcom 5802 serves a whopping 300wpc:eek:,and my Tube Amps serve up a small 80wpc:wink:, I can say the watts per channel BS makes no sense to me and I have given up tring to understand it,all I do know is a quality amp is much better and makes all the difference in the world.I quit focasing on the big numbers a long time ago and started listening with my ears..

    The only thing I will say is when I pulled the trigger I was afaid of losing my lower end (deep bass) I was wrong,at first I thought I was missing my lower end but you learn that the bass is more refined,and if I really want to hear it thump I just turn it up a notch..:biggrin:

    Quality current and the soul of TUBES will wake the dead and have them dancing.

    One more thing then I'm out, and that is it's been really nice this last couple of months just lisenting to my system then looking for the next crack rock around the corner.I have finally come to a place where I am happy with how my system sounds,the last piece to my puzzle that refined my rig is the Dreadnought AI-1 SDA cable,it has done amazing things,tie that with the tubes +SDA1.2TL's and you have total Nirvana!!!

    This by far is the best thread around here in a very long time,kudos to you H9:cool:

    Tubes Rule!!!!! Synergy is everything and more.someone around here once said everything matters!!

    Larry
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  • sda2mike
    sda2mike Posts: 3,131
    edited January 2011
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    looking for the next crack rock around the corner

    speaking of crack rocks: an old addiction is showing up again for me: TUBE RADIOS!!!!:eek: thankfully i know a little more now than i did then..
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  • joeparaski
    joeparaski Posts: 1,865
    edited January 2011
    zingo wrote: »
    But I bet that BB sounded better... :biggrin:

    Yeah, it was a beautiful sound. I really miss that car. Here it is:

    GTO71.jpg


    Bored .040 over 455 HO Pontiac to 466 ci. Mechanical fuel injected Enderle bugcatcher on a 6-71 Moonyham magnesium blower. Built the engine and the entire car myself.


    Joe
    Amplifiers: 1-SAE Mark IV, 4-SAE 2400, 1-SAE 2500, 2-SAE 2600, 1-Buttkicker BKA 1000N w/2-tactile transducers. Sources: Sony BDP CX7000es, Sony CX300/CX400/CX450/CX455, SAE 8000 tuner, Akai 4000D R2R, Technics 1100A TT, Epson 8500UB with Carada 100". Speakers:Polk SDA SRS, 3.1TL, FXi5, FXi3, 2-SVS 20-29, Yamaha, SVS center sub. Power:2-Monster HTS3500, Furman M-8D & RR16 Plus. 2-SAE 4000 X-overs, SAE 5000a noise reduction, MSB Link DAC III, MSB Powerbase, Behringer 2496, Monarchy DIP 24/96.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited January 2011
    :wink:

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,223
    edited January 2011
    Hahahaha!!!!

    I love it Russ..
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited January 2011
    Club Polk can take a single topic and take it in 100 tangents with the best of them...
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited January 2011
    Big is small and small is Big!

    More is Less and Less is More!

    How fortunate it is the Aleph30 sounds like the XA200.5! I don't need all the extra 170W since I don't need it.

    If power rating is the deciding factor for buying an amp, I will just stick to the hand cranked and solar powered tuna.

    Nuff said!
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,079
    edited January 2011
    RuSsMaN wrote: »
    30w-to-466CI-in-133-posts-club-polk.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=uglynerdboy

    :wink:

    Cheers,
    Russ

    Priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post of the year!!!
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited January 2011
    Correct. I do not need close to 200W to be happy. I need more. I am more than happy with with my 800W (@ 4 ohm) per channel class A, then switching to class B watts. At low volume, the detail is impeccable. At 120db, it is still impeccable, but hard to talk on the phone. :wink:
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • raffi
    raffi Posts: 114
    edited January 2011
    reported
    2 channel rig: MMF 2.2 turntable, Adcom GFP-715, Adcom GFA-555, Adcom ACE-515, Carver M-1.0t, Denon 5900 CD/SACD, SDA-SRS 2.3s (Zardoss modded), AQ Diamondback & King Cobra IC's and AQ Type 4 speaker cables

    HT rig: Panny 50" G20 plasma, Directv DVR, Insignia BRD/DVD/SACD/DVD-A, Denon AVR-890, Fronts: Polk Monitor 70's, Rears: Deftech Mythos Gems, Center: Polk CS1, Sub: Polk PSW-505
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited January 2011
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Correct. I do not need close to 200W to be happy. I need more. I am more than happy with with my 800W (@ 4 ohm) per channel class A, then switching to class B watts. At low volume, the detail is impeccable. At 120db, it is still impeccable, but hard to talk on the phone. :wink:


    You're full of crap, get a clue.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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