You don't need close to 200wpc

joeparaski

OH well, I'm one of those guys who is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I've got 8 amplifiers totaling 4,000 rms into 8 ohms. Does it sound any better than a well thought out rig with 1 amp...no, and it probably sounds worse.

I'm also the guy that built a 466 cubic inch big block with a fuel injected supercharged engine for the street back in the day. Did it go any faster than a well thought out small block setup...no, and it may have been slower.

All this to say that my rig sounds good to "me" and looks freakin' awesome. And that's exactly why I built it that way. This is "my" audio nirvana and whoever doesn't like it can leave the room.

Joe

Ricardo

joeparaski wrote: »

All this to say that my rig sounds good to "me" and looks freakin' awesome. And that's exactly why I built it that way. This is "my" audio nirvana and whoever doesn't like it can leave the room.

Joe

nuff said!!

mdaudioguy

ben62670 wrote: »

I had a 200wpc Sunfire TG and my 150wpc Adcom GFA-7500 beat it in every way. HT and music.

My GFA-7500 beat the XPA-2(300wpc)/XPA-3(200wpc) COMBO. Gotta love it.

thsmith

Somewhere on club polk I have seen "everything matters" and I am a believer.

Great discussion !

mdaudioguy

thsmith wrote: »

Somewhere on club polk I have seen "everything matters" and I am a believer.

Great discussion !

Like my son asked me, "Why wouldn't it?"

Jstas

Ricardo wrote: »

Funny how different people feel different about things. I want good quality watts for my 2 channel. For my HT, I am perfectly happy with what the receiver puts out. I dear anyone to come listen and then say it doesn't sound good, dynamics are poor, etc.

To each its own (though I am right )

I'll come, listen and be overly critical and negative just for the sake of being overly critical and negative.

Jstas

joeparaski wrote: »

OH well, I'm one of those guys who is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I've got 8 amplifiers totaling 4,000 rms into 8 ohms. Does it sound any better than a well thought out rig with 1 amp...no, and it probably sounds worse.

I'm also the guy that built a 466 cubic inch big block with a fuel injected supercharged engine for the street back in the day. Did it go any faster than a well thought out small block setup...no, and it may have been slower.

All this to say that my rig sounds good to "me" and looks freakin' awesome. And that's exactly why I built it that way. This is "my" audio nirvana and whoever doesn't like it can leave the room.

Joe

Actually, that big block probably sounds closer to my audio nirvana than all those amps do.

nooshinjohn

ben62670 wrote: »

I had a 200wpc Sunfire TG and my 150wpc Adcom GFA-7500 beat it in every way. HT and music.

I was not overly impressed by the 200wpc Sunfire either Ben. I had one that lasted a week in my rig before I went looking for another Signature 425/5 series. Two totally different amps.

megasat16

Be it 1 Watt or 10 Watt or 100 Watts, Quality is important to the LAST WATT.

Who knows how an amp will sound when it's driving to the limits and then some?

That's why I love low efficiency, and low impedance speakers.

YMMV!

F1nut

heiney9 wrote: »

In my book 95dB and up are starting the ear bleeding.......

Maybe you have found the limits of 30 wpc.

In my book that is my normal listening level and not even close to ear bleeding. In fact, my 500+ wpc amp is still pure sweetness at much, much higher SPL levels. Not that I go there often, but I can. :biggrin:

DarqueKnight

heiney9 wrote: »

A No, but I'd take 10-30 premium wpc over any of the 100-200wpc standard fare that passes as mid-fi audio any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It always has been, and ALWAYS will be about quality over quantity unless you are looking for ear bleeding spl's. In my book 95dB and up are starting the ear bleeding.......

A number of competent amp designers offer models which offer high power and high sound quality. Pass Labs offers amplifiers ranging from 30 wpc stereo amps to 1000 wpc mono blocks. I don't think anyone would accuse Nelson Pass of sacrificing quality for brute force.

F1nut wrote: »

In my book that is my normal listening level and not even close to ear bleeding. In fact, my 500+ wpc amp is still pure sweetness at much, much higher SPL levels. Not that I go there often, but I can. :biggrin:

For me, high power is about getting more clarity, detail, etc. at low to normal listening levels rather than not running out of gas at high volume.

ESavinon

F1nut wrote: »

Maybe you have found the limits of 30 wpc.

In my book that is my normal listening level and not even close to ear bleeding. In fact, my 500+ wpc amp is still pure sweetness at much, much higher SPL levels. Not that I go there often, but I can. :biggrin:

+1.:cool:

F1nut

DarqueKnight wrote: »

For me, high power is about getting more clarity, detail, etc. at low to normal listening levels rather than not running out of gas at high volume.

Isn't that what I said?

pearsall001

F1nut wrote: »

Maybe you have found the limits of 30 wpc.

In my book that is my normal listening level and not even close to ear bleeding. In fact, my 500+ wpc amp is still pure sweetness at much, much higher SPL levels. Not that I go there often, but I can. :biggrin:

You watt **** you!!!! Nothing beats a quality well designed amp that not only can sound oh so sweeeeeet but can also pump out some massive horsepower. Best of both worlds in my book. Nelson knows the formula as do plenty of other designers. Nothing like having your cake & eating it too.

shack

heiney9 wrote:

I agree Ricardo, when I get the separate HT set up I'll be going with a nice receiver (middle of the line) and a nice sub and a set of TSi's. That's all you really need. My brother has a mid-line Denon and Polk TSi's with a mid-line Polk sub (not Micro-Pro) and it sounds fantastic for movies.

H9

That is pretty much what I have. A mid level Denon AVR rated at 100wpc and tested to get around 75-80 wpc all channels driven. Driviing a 5.1 RTxxi set up and a 200w sub. The only thing my HT rig NEEDS is a sub that will dig a little deeper and can pressurize my room on the really low LFE stuff.

Now my 2 channel rig is NAD separates driving either SDA1Cs or RT400s depending the mood I'm in.

There is a very noticable difference between the sound of the the 2 setups but neither one is anywhere near 200wpc and I never push them beyond their limits. Since I am very satisfied with the sound of both of them, I guess I have all the power I need.

I could get more power, better gear, etc, etc... But I'm fine with what I have...and that's good enough.

mhardy6647

Let's inject a little physics into the discourse. Consider speakers with a true sensitivity of 91 dB/watt @ 1 meter. Stereo buys 3 more dB; a listening point 2 meters from the speakers would take that 3 dB away again. Over the "flat" bandwidth of the speakers, 1 watt (2.83 VAC into 8 ohms nominal impedance) will net 91 dB SPL at the listener's ears. 101 dB (i.e., an SPL that would be perceived as twice as loud) would take 10 watts.

101 dB is farking loud. Listening to 100-ish dB SPLs regularly would result inexorably in hearing damage and loss.

(EDIT: sorry that table is so big... its size is not meant to be an editorial comment!)


http://harada-sound.com/sound/handbook/soundspl.gif

http://www.shurenotes.com/issue8/article.asp

Prolonged exposure to sounds above 85 dB SPL may cause permanent hearing loss. Exposure of 115 db of greater may pose a serious health risk. OSHA – the Occupational Safety and Health Administration – specifies the following as thresholds for potential hearing damage

pearsall001

heiney9 wrote: »

I agree Ricardo, when I get the separate HT set up I'll be going with a nice receiver (middle of the line) and a nice sub and a set of TSi's. That's all you really need. My brother has a mid-line Denon and Polk TSi's with a mid-line Polk sub (not Micro-Pro) and it sounds fantastic for movies.

H9

Brock, I know you're heavy into two channel & don't really dabble in HT but a statement like "That's all you really need" in reference to HT is akin to someone saying an EMO XPA-2 & a DVD player as your source is "all you really need" for a stellar two channel system & it sounds fantastic. HT sound is no different than two channel when it comes to quality componets & set up.

heiney9

pearsall001 wrote: »

Brock, I know you're heavy into two channel & don't really dabble in HT but a statement like "That's all you really need" in reference to HT is akin to someone saying an EMO XPA-2 & a DVD player as your source is "all you really need" for a stellar two channel system & it sounds fantastic. HT sound is no different than two channel when it comes to quality componets & set up.

Phil, beyond the statement above I never talked about HT and if people read the article they would know my original post had NOTHING to do with HT. And yes, for me multi channel amps and expensive speakers aren't nec to enjoy HT. It's a movie and most of the effects aren't even real.

The EMo reference and analogy is ludicris, simply ludicris. I never said anything like that nor infered it.

Now if other people have brought up HT in this thread, I can't help it.

This thread has gone is a few differnent directions, which is fine and is typical of a discussion. But the fact remains you don't need 200wpc.

H9

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

This thread has gone is a few differnent directions, which is fine and is typical of a discussion. But the fact remains you don't need 200wpc.

H9

well, I still don't know that this is a fact... but in the hypothetical 91 dB/W@1 m speaker I invoked above, 200 wpc would net the listener 91 + 23 = 114 dB; Shure and OSHA say 15 minutes of that will result in permanent hearing damage.

ben62670

Underground trainis where I'm at. I did the 130db thing, and it was fun, but I like my ears.

Joe08867

markmarc wrote: »

Quality beats quantity every time by far in audio.

Exactly!!

heiney9

mhardy6647 wrote: »

well, I still don't know that this is a fact... but in the hypothetical 91 dB/W@1 m speaker I invoked above, 200 wpc would net the listener 91 + 23 = 114 dB; Shure and OSHA say 15 minutes of that will result in permanent hearing damage.

I'm not even the least bit interested in theoretical SPL's. Do I measure occasionally out of curiosity? Sure I do, but I don't base any audio purchases based on a forumula or Shure or OSHA recommendations

Waaaaayyyyyyyyy too many variables

H9

Joe08867

mhardy6647 wrote: »

well, I still don't know that this is a fact... but in the hypothetical 91 dB/W@1 m speaker I invoked above, 200 wpc would net the listener 91 + 23 = 114 dB; Shure and OSHA say 15 minutes of that will result in permanent hearing damage.

What? I can't hear you...

Loud is fun for a party but not for sitting back and listening. Unless air guitar and booze are involved.

fishbones

Joe08867 wrote: »

What? I can't hear you...

Loud is fun for a party but not for sitting back and listening. Unless air guitar and booze are involved.

Funny stuff...and true.

Dandydan

I have some MG 2a's and they like more power then your normal. But sound unless you have heard them you have no idea what you are missing. Truely amazing

headrott

Ricardo wrote: »

I dear anyone to come listen and then say it doesn't sound good, dynamics are poor, etc.

"He deared to kill a kings dare".:biggrin:

Sorry Ricardo, your accidental mispelling made me think of Robin Hood:Men In Tights.:biggrin::biggrin:

Greg

headrott

DarqueKnight wrote: »

A number of competent amp designers offer models which offer high power and high sound quality. Pass Labs offers amplifiers ranging from 30 wpc stereo amps to 1000 wpc mono blocks. I don't think anyone would accuse Nelson Pass of sacrificing quality for brute force.



For me, high power is about getting more clarity, detail, etc. at low to normal listening levels rather than not running out of gas at high volume.

F1nut wrote: »

Isn't that what I said?

I agree with both of you then to a certain extent. But, just because you have 1000WPC amp doesn't mean you will have better clarity, detail, etc. at loud listening levels. It still depends on the quality and layout of the components (I am not using Nelson Pass' amps as an example, but the number of watts instead). It's like using better quality cables. When I switched from some idependantly produced XLR cables to the MIT S3 XLR cables. The detail and clarity level went up. Not a night and day difference, but certainly noticable. (Of course the price went up as well). This is due to better parts quality and design implementation of the parts.

My point is that just because you use more watts to listen at higher dB levels doesn't mean you get better detail and clarity at high dB levels. However, it can be said if you push the lower wattage amp to it's limits you would end up with less detail and clarity, but at "normal" listening levels a low wattage amp can sound as good or better than a high wattage amp depending on the parts quality and layout.

Greg

heiney9

I am absolutely in love with a 1 or 2 stage singled ended Class A amp, by nature they have to be low powered unless you want some behemoth or spend a lot of money. High power amps don't interest me as much anymore, even the larger Pass amps. Although if I had to go there he'd be the one I'd choose.

Even considering my next amp, it's the evolution of the original Aleph series in the Pass Labs XA30.5. Still 30wpc in single ended Class A, but it combines the attributes of the Aleph series with the attributes of the "X" series. Sort of the best of both worlds for another leap forward. Give me purity and simplicity everytime.

You don't need high power to achieve dynamics, clarity, detail, etc unless you have unusual needs in your speakers and/or listening room. The one singular caveat is you need to be sure the amp is of proper design and that never comes cheap.

There are as many crappy sounding 200 wpc amps as there are 30 wpc amps. So there is no generalizing in either case. I'm not knocking those 200wpc amps that sound stellar, I'm simply saying you don't need it if you choose properly, unless your specific situation calls for it based on the other gear and room consideration.

H9

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

I am absolutely in love with a 1 or 2 stage singled ended Class A amp, by nature they have to be low powered unless you want some behemoth or spend a lot of money. High power amps don't interest me as much anymore, even the larger Pass amps. Although if I had to go there he'd be the one I'd choose.

Even considering my next amp, it's the evolution of the original Aleph series in the Pass Labs XA30.5. Still 30wpc in single ended Class A, but it combines the attributes of the Aleph series with the attributes of the "X" series. Sort of the best of both worlds for another leap forward. Give me purity and simplicity everytime.

You don't need high power to achieve dynamics, clarity, detail, etc unless you have unusual needs in your speakers and/or listening room. The one singular caveat is you need to be sure the amp is of proper design and that never comes cheap.

There are as many crappy sounding 200 wpc amps as there are 30 wpc amps. So there is no generalizing in either case. I'm not knocking those 200wpc amps that sound stellar, I'm simply saying you don't need it if you choose properly, unless your specific situation calls for it based on the other gear and room consideration.

H9

I think the place where we agree pretty explicitly (and which I don't think has gotten too much airplay in this thread, except from you) is that a lot of the "detail" and "clarity" (or "lack of veiling" if one prefers) will arise from very simple signal paths in active components; e.g., minimal daisy-chaining of gain stages. This is, I think, probably the supreme reason for the tremendous "immediacy" of single-ended amps like the little Paramours I have in the living room. There is very little (in terms of wire, active, or passive components) between the source and amplifier. I use no active preamp anymore; just a switchbox and trimmer pots to adjust/normalize source levels feeding the power amps.

N.B. The original Paramour topology used a two-stage voltage amp to drive the 2A3 output; a later tweak converted the voltage amp to a single-stage (1/2 of the 12AT7) with an active (constant current) load.

heiney9

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I think the place where we agree pretty explicitly (and which I don't think has gotten too much airplay in this thread, except from you) is that a lot of the "detail" and "clarity" (or "lack of veiling" if one prefers) will arise from very simple signal paths in active components; e.g., minimal daisy-chaining of gain stages.

Exactly, higher power amps by nature are more complicated because of the need for more devices even if there are are minimal gain stages and little negative feedback, etc.

I also very much the sonic signature of a single ended amp, hard to do in large wattages.

It can be done, getting the purity and detail with high power amps is extremely expensive and the hardware needed is very large in many cases. I can get all the clarity, detail, immediacy, scale, dynamics with lower power, simpler circuits.

In a round about way that's what this thread is about.

H9