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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    That is a serious stretch by any standard.

    how so? $750 amp that you have to spend 20% more to make sound "better"

    a $5000 speaker system that you have to spend 20% down the road to make sound "better"

    seems like theres no stretch at all
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    by the way not bashing tubes or jolida. Ive just seen many times in this forum "those stock tubes are junk, you need to replace them first thing"

    I fail to see how the two arent analogous, let alone directly comparable.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    Keiko, What have I said that's unreasonable? I've backed up everything I've said and given any chance for rebuttal. I don't hear one solid thoughtful thing coming from you in the peanut gallery.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    I had a Muse Model One Hundred. It was pretty decent.
    IIRC Muse products were catered to the home audio market.
    Like I mentioned, Seigfried Linkwitz (yes, THAT Linkwitz) uses pro drivers and amps in his designs like the HIGHLY acclaimed Orion.
    Actually the drivers used in the Orions are sourced from SEAS Excel series(tweeter/Midbass) and the woofers are from Peerless.They most definately are not pro drivers.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    how so? $750 amp that you have to spend 20% more to make sound "better"

    a $5000 speaker system that you have to spend 20% down the road to make sound "better"

    seems like theres no stretch at all

    There's a big difference between rolling tubes, which any monkey could do, and changing electronic parts, which most folks would have to have someone else do.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    IIRC Muse products were catered to the home audio market.Actually the drivers used in the Orions are sourced from SEAS Excel series(tweeter/Midbass) and the woofers are from Peerless.They most definately are not pro drivers.

    I stand corrected. It's just the Alesis amplifiers in the Orion. For one reason or another I was thinking the drivers were pro gear, too. Thanks

    As far as the Muse amp, you may be correct. Although, I remember hearing something about it being a rebranded Code Systems pro-line
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    There's a big difference between rolling tubes, which any monkey could do, and changing electronic parts, which most folks would have to have someone else do.

    Theres no electronics to replace... you unplug it from the wall and the speakers. It's totally external and a rack mount. I'm sure if you can train a monkey to roll tubes, you could get them to unplug the processor.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    Keiko wrote: »
    That's because I'm not in the peanut gallery.

    You apparently missed post #108. Funny, you're so defensive. Have a nice day! :wink:

    perhaps, I jumped the gun a bit. You as well.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited January 2011
    Keiko,

    In a PM you asked:



    Dude

    I wasn't being rude, but you simply don't know what you don't know.

    Jinjuju has been a pita to CP ever since he showed up here. Just search through his history/prior posts and you'll get a real clear picture of the troll.

    K

    Outside of the threads where I have had interactions with him (so far positive ones) I went through a few other threads and in my opinion, found that there is a clear pattern of group think and a pattern of attacks against him regardless of subject matter or validity.

    Now I see it starting with newrival (accusing him and jinjuku being one and the same).

    Just an observation of an relatively new person here.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    Habanero Monk wrote: »
    Keiko,

    In a PM you asked:



    Dude

    I wasn't being rude, but you simply don't know what you don't know.

    Jinjuju has been a pita to CP ever since he showed up here. Just search through his history/prior posts and you'll get a real clear picture of the troll.

    K

    Outside of the threads where I have had interactions with him (so far positive ones) I went through a few other threads and in my opinion, found that there is a clear pattern of group think and a pattern of attacks against him regardless of subject matter or validity.

    Now I see it starting with newrival (accusing him and jinjuku being one and the same).

    Just an observation of an relatively new person here.

    WOW!

    First off, you don't post other folks PM's out here. Secondly, your observation couldn't be more wrong.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    Theres no electronics to replace... you unplug it from the wall and the speakers. It's totally external and a rack mount. I'm sure if you can train a monkey to roll tubes, you could get them to unplug the processor.

    Ok, we are on a different page. The mods I have read/heard about require changes inside the unit.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    WOW!

    First off, you don't post other folks PM's out here. Secondly, your observation couldn't be more wrong.

    Hmmm... Sorry, I thought it was ok:confused:
    TroyD wrote: »
    PM from Jinjuku....

    Now, I post this not to embarrass him, but, because I don't say anything via PM that I won't in public....and I don't see anything here that is really out of line in terms of being inflammatory.



    My response is this.

    People are argumentative because you have given no reason not to be. I mean, there are people with whom I disagree and even dislike...but I respect thier opinons. You have added nothing of value, except diagreement, to the conversation.

    Honest conversations happen all the time, even disagreeable ones....you just choose to be as much part of the problem as anyone else.

    I won't have this discussion anywhere but here. This is where I choose to hang out, as do you (why, other than flushing the pipes...which this would be a golden opportunity to silence your critics, is beyond me)

    The fact is, you have chosen to come here, chosen to participate and have criticized for people being disagreeable to what you claim to believe. This is a golden opportunity for you to state your case. I'm not being impolite or rude or anything else.....however, if you choose to ignore this, it only gives weight to what people are saying.

    BDT

    I mean you have a post directly below the one where TroyD posted Jinjuku's Private Message.

    So is it ok or isn't it?

    The double standard is becoming clearer by the post.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    Ok, we are on a different page. The mods I have read/heard about require changes inside the unit.

    Oh. Don't know about those. But EP offers two processor options.

    The new Behringer for the cs2.3 is supposed to be much improved over the one that was on the cs2. But there is an option for the Spacial Computer which is what they always demo with at audio shows, which is the upgrade that I'm talking about.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    Habanero Monk wrote: »
    Hmmm... Sorry, I thought it was ok:confused:



    I mean you have a post directly below the one where TroyD posted Jinjuku's Private Message.

    So is it ok or isn't it?

    The double standard is becoming clearer by the post.

    I missed that, but let's go with it not being ok. We'll whack BDT's pee pee at the next PF.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited January 2011
    Habanero Monk wrote: »
    Hmmm... Sorry, I thought it was ok:confused:



    I mean you have a post directly below the one where TroyD posted Jinjuku's Private Message.

    So is it ok or isn't it?

    The double standard is becoming clearer by the post.

    Oh, SNAP!
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    Keiko wrote: »
    BOZO Listed!

    ???

    He has a point, hasn't he? I mean as far as the posting PM's goes. If there's a precedence, it seems valid to me.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    I missed that, but let's go with it not being ok. We'll whack BDT's pee pee at the next PF.

    lol.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    I missed that, but let's go with it not being ok. We'll whack BDT's pee pee at the next PF.

    I am surprised since the very next post was from you. I will refrain from posting PM's.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Oh, SNAP!

    There's nothing oh snap about it and it doesn't change the fact that you are a worthless troll.

    So, are we on for lunch?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,420
    edited January 2011
    deleted...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    Habanero Monk wrote: »
    I am surprised since the very next post was from you. I will refrain from posting PM's.

    I don't read every post on this forum. :redface:
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,420
    edited January 2011
    ...I can feel the love tonight....


    sung in my very best Elton John voice:tongue::wink:.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    There's nothing oh snap about it and it doesn't change the fact that you are a worthless troll.

    So, are we on for lunch?

    I really couldn't see lunch being the least bit cordial in light of your comment.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,420
    edited January 2011
    jinjuku wrote: »
    I really couldn't see lunch being the least bit cordial in light of your comment.

    WAAAAAAA......


    Waaaaaaa....

    is it nappie time in Nambi-Pambiland Juju? Hope you get tucked in all nice and tight with a bottle and your bankie.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    i love everyone
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    WAAAAAAA......


    Waaaaaaa....

    is it nappie time in Nambi-Pambiland Juju? Hope you get tucked in all nice and tight with a bottle and your bankie

    :confused:
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote:
    You know, I did see this thread but I stopped because it looked like a witch hunt to me, and I was exactly right. The agenda was to skewer jinjuku at any cost and that's what was done, facts be damned. The whole thing started with a post of him saying that he thought pro gear offered an intermediate listener (not advanced or expert) a reasonable and viable option in terms of quality and longevity. He also states that his thoughts were likely divergent from popular belief. He gives a reasonable opinion, states why, and then warns that it is atypical to popular belief, and that's justification for the McCarthy-esque interrogation? I don't get it. Like I said it was a witch hunt from the beginning.

    More to the point, that thread did nothing to answer my question of "what is with the heavy opposition to pro gear?" Unless the answer is "because jinjuku likes it."

    Then you need to improve your reading comprehension skills. As I said...that thread had several who posted their thoughts on hi-fi vs pro (as well as a few who defended the use of pro gear in SOME limited situations).

    Since you aren't interested in looking...here is a sampling of thoughts and ovservations....no editing...no bashing of anyone...no BS...just cut and pasted from that thread.
    In every case, I'll bet that I can find an alternative you pro audio that will be at least as equally economical and better sounding.
    Sure, you have mega watts pushing sound through all the open air with big bass speakers for the thump, but I don't equate that to critical listening. Each one serves a purpose, and live venue with pro gear doesn't serve hi fi very well. I guess what I'm trying to say is...If you think pro-gear is as good as real hifi, then you haven't heard real hifi yet.
    High wattage pro audio amps like Crown for example can be excellent for powering subwoofers but i dont think any other pro audio components can bridge the gap up to Hi Fi without severely degrading the sound quality.
    See I have had both those amps......the crown is only good for pro, its pretty noisy and the parasound is better and that is one of parasounds lower end amplifiers......I used a crown with a passive sub for a while...it was ok for that but its HT not suitable for an involving stereo system..
    I agree that pro gear does not have a place in serious 2 channel systems. Pro gear is all about volume, not sound quality. When I think of most pro gear in a 2 channel system I think of a high school or college kid putting together a great party thrower.
    This debate always cracks me up, the design goals of pro and home audio are completely different. Pro gear (not the high end pro gear mentioned by Solid Squal) is designed to handle the physical abuse of constant movement and poor air flow. Plus, it's designed to be played at high decibels. 95% of such gear is bought for live music scene which means high volume output. Studios buy such gear because its put into a tight cabinet with other electronics and immense heat and no air movement, it's all about being able to operate continuously.

    Quality, home gear is designed to produce the subtle nuances of music. By nature it can fill a home space, but put it in a bar with crowd noise, etc, its capabilities are lost. Home amplification uses parts made with tighter measurement tolerances, but needs space in order to keep such parts running within desired levels.

    For all those pro audio fans who argue that measurements don't lie, they forget that numbers only tell half the story. Amplifiers of the same build style (tubes, SS, chip) have quite different auditory signatures. Those that say BS, IMHO and experience have very little honest training in what to listen for, and have budget gear that allows for precious little defining resolution.
    I used several Crown amps in the '80s and tried to force myself to like them due their high power outputs and the rage my "audiophile" friends who back them were extolling the virtues of Crowns. I couldn't get used to the noise and flat wall of sound. I tried I really did but they were out of my system in six months and I went back to HiFi gear and was happy again.
    OK, I read more than post on this forum. I haft to chime in here, I have been a professanal sound engineer for 26 years, I have Harmon { jbl, lexacon, crown, dbx, } as a sponser, hell I help with the proto type of the 4800 drive rack. I could call harmon tomorrow and have anything they make or have and have it shipped free to my house to keep as long as I needed it or untill they upgrade. If that gear sounded good at the house, why would I save every penny I make to buy Hi end Audio gear. If we are talking amps and drive racks { speaker management } they will not sound worth a **** as hi-fi goes, I have tried this all my life some have come close but are not refined for true hi fi. Yes I do have a few pairs of JBL studio monitors self powered class A, but they are near field and loose there **** 12 feet away. You can check what I am saying. Just google Dirk Durham {tkfoh} and read. sorry for the spelling glasses are in the truck. You find crown, qsc, peavey, in studios because of the high spl and you can pour a crown and coke in them and thay will keep going, with out shutting down a session and run 24 hours wide open in a closed cabnet with no air and no fan {noise}.
    I have been selling Pro Gear now for 6 years.

    The only way you could pull off having a pro amplifier in your system and it sounding -good- is if your system is so low resolution it can not reveal just how bad the pro amplifier really is. The only reason I say this is from personal experience.

    I assembled a system for my buddy using a PE Receiver, Parasound amp, Def Tech towers - the rig rocks for what it is. If you throw that PE receiver in my rig at the front man it sounds horrible. My speakers easilly dispose of such garbage.

    Active crossovers are actually pretty popular in hi fi -- but alot of the ones you see in the hi fi world are preprogrammed from the manufacture ---

    I guess it would be good from a DIY stand point as you can change your xover points and so forth on the fly. I still would argue that using quality capacitors (Clarity MR, ESA etc) and quality resistors (Mills, Duelund) are just as good as an active crossover. But perhaps cheaper parts like ceramic resistors and bennic caps etc (stock parts) would be a downgrade from an active.
    Ive actually OWNED a pair of Behringer powered monitors... and GET OUT OF TOWN - They are the same model mentioned in that thread!???!

    I know, insanity insanity.

    I sat down and listened to them in a near field environment and was bedazzled by their wide staging in that arrangement.

    I bought them and took them home to my humble abode. I kept them approximately two weeks before selling them on this very site. Outside of a studio application they are lifeless, boring, sterile - and ultimately dont hold a candle to a good set of speakers.

    I will say in their price point they are ok - but to compare them to something like Orions (which I have not heard - but they use similar drivers to my speakers) has gotta be just silly.

    Also I have ran a Crown XTi1000 pushing a set of Polk RT55, needless to say that lasted a good 5 minutes before my Odyssey Khartago (about the same price point) was plugged back up. Bright, brittle, blah.

    All I am getting at -- I dont care what people think or their experiences I work around the s#$t. And most of it sounds like that very thing - s#$t.

    How I see it is the following.
    I have been a musician since I was 9 years old. My family is generations of musicians. We all love making music , playing others music etc. We all love good quality gear in the pro world. But we also love home gear for replaying our loved music meaning what we have written and what we love from other musicians.
    I think what has been missed but touched on in this entire crazy thread is the fact that Pro gear is designed to play live real Instruments and home gear is designed to replay what was recorded.
    Studio gear is designed to record in a controlled environment. Live gear is designed for venues. I don't really get the idea of mixing gear. I never had the desire to use a pro amp instead of a home amp in my stereo system and I never had the desire to use my home amps to power my guitar. I simply don't understand this entire argument of whats better. Guys they are designed for different job. I'm seeing Apples and Oranges here.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    I fully agree. Although it seems there is a gang mentality on certain issues, and the conversations quickly lose any logical coherence.

    It may seem that way, but with certain issues, it's the same old horse that has been ridden 'til it's dead and rotten for decades.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    jinjuku wrote: »
    I really couldn't see lunch being the least bit cordial in light of your comment.

    Interesting comment considering that you called me a ****. I was willing to put that aside, sit down, eat lunch and help you to understand what it takes to be a man in this world.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    It may seem that way, but with certain issues, it's the same old horse that has been ridden 'til it's dead and rotten for decades.

    Yeah I can see that being the case. Ive only been here a year, and I guess since it's a small community, a lot of the same questions probably get brought up over and over.
    design is where science and art break even.
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