Had to share.......

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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    There is a lot of brutal honesty on this forum and calling out of BS, that's the way it should be.

    H9

    I fully agree. Although it seems there is a gang mentality on certain issues, and the conversations quickly lose any logical coherence.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited January 2011
    I kick yer butt for sayin that !!:biggrin:JK:wink:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    I fully agree. Although it seems there is a gang mentality on certain issues, and the conversations quickly lose any logical coherence.

    You'll notice *most* times the so called gang mentality is on multiple offenders whose sole purpose it seems is to ruffle feathers and generally be combative. Not on those who truly want to gather info. Not always but most times.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    halo71 wrote: »
    +1 I have no tube gear in the 2 channel/HT rig, never had. But I have had many tube amps (and hybrids) in the guitar world from Bogner, Hughs & Kettner, Marshall to Mesa. I know how much better they sounded than SS, so I know I will like them in my stereo rig. But that was back before the lay-offs happened. lol Wish now I had put more into home audio than guitars/amps.

    Preconceived notions...what is that? ;)

    I think you are mistaken on the difference between the applications of tubes in guitar amplifiers and stereo gear. The way they are used in guitar is no reflection of the their quality in hi-fi audio equipment.

    I'd hate it if I had an amp that sounded like my '65 Deluxe. God forbid a Marshall. Let's be clear, they sound awesome when a guitar is passed through them, but the whole point is that they are overdriven. Why overdriven, heavy distortion would make you think "good for 2-channel" is beyond me. Tubes are used in guitar amps for the way they distort. Intentionally. Either due to the way they clip differently than SS, or due to 2nd order harmonic distortion, or both. Distortion is not what you want in audio gear. Although the non-linear clipping of of tubes could be considered a benefit of tubes in hi-fi gear.

    Again, this is not to say tube hi-fi gear isn't awesome, nor to say tube guitar amps aren't sick. I just think you may want to reconsider your reasoning.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    You'll notice *most* times the so called gang mentality is on multiple offenders whose sole purpose it seems is to ruffle feathers and generally be combative. Not on those who truly want to gather info. Not always but most times.

    H9

    Yeah, and I guess I just havent been around long enough to have seen repeat offenses.

    But what is with the heavy opposition to pro gear? There are many respected audiophiles that use it, or have praised it in reviews. The Muse Model 100 amplifier is the first to come to mind. Or the likes of Siegfried Linkwitz.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote:
    But what is with the heavy opposition to pro gear? There are many respected audiophiles that use it, or have praised it in reviews. The Muse Model 100 amplifier is the first to come to mind. Or the likes of Siegfried Linkwitz.

    That was discussed ad nauseum in this thread (now locked) just a few days ago...

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111159

    Lots of reasons given by folks with a fair amount of experience with the gear.

    Where were you?
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    hahaha, i missed the thread altogether. I'll have to check it out.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited January 2011
    I have been told how horrible tubes are to stereo sound many times.
    Yet, you'd have a hard time finding an amp that sounds better than
    my ARC. No overdriven distortion or muddy bloated bass.
    Just good sound. I think the best way to describe it is tubes
    are very linear accross their working range, and go into distortion/
    overdriven range with more grace than SS. SS has a more limited
    sweet spot that takes more stages and a lot of thought to get
    the same job done. We can talk it to death, or just go with what works.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited January 2011
    ^^ I'll also add tube rolling gets the best results. I've heard some very mediocre tubes in my gear, but rolling the correct combo is simply stunning.

    I'll agree 100% on your tube analysis but add that properly done one or two gain stage Single Ended Class A really hits many of the same sweet spots tubes do.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    sucks2beme wrote: »
    We can talk it to death, or just go with what works.

    Theres a third option: do both :D
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited January 2011
    Tubes are Phallic.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    sucks2beme wrote: »
    I have been told how horrible tubes are to stereo sound many times.
    Yet, you'd have a hard time finding an amp that sounds better than
    my ARC. No overdriven distortion or muddy bloated bass.
    Just good sound. I think the best way to describe it is tubes
    are very linear accross their working range, and go into distortion/
    overdriven range with more grace than SS. SS has a more limited
    sweet spot that takes more stages and a lot of thought to get
    the same job done. We can talk it to death, or just go with what works.

    Is this in response to my comment on guitar amplifiers? Because I WAS talking about guitar amplifiers and them being overdriven. Not tubes in hi-fi gear.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    Theres a third option: do both :D

    Yeah, but just like anything else, some combo's work and other's don't. But yes, a tubed pre-amp with a SS amp seems to really, really work well for most applications.

    Odd thing is my bother went the opposite way and it works extremely well.

    BAT VK-60 tube mono blocks
    BAT VK-40 SS pre-amp.

    Granted the tubes BAT uses in their power amps tend to have some SS characteristics rather than the typical power tube like an EL34, KT88, 6550, etc, etc.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    shack wrote: »
    That was discussed ad nauseum in this thread (now locked) just a few days ago...

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111159

    Lots of reasons given by folks with a fair amount of experience with the gear.

    Where were you?

    You know, I did see this thread but I stopped because it looked like a witch hunt to me, and I was exactly right. The agenda was to skewer jinjuku at any cost and that's what was done, facts be damned. The whole thing started with a post of him saying that he thought pro gear offered an intermediate listener (not advanced or expert) a reasonable and viable option in terms of quality and longevity. He also states that his thoughts were likely divergent from popular belief. He gives a reasonable opinion, states why, and then warns that it is atypical to popular belief, and that's justification for the McCarthy-esque interrogation? I don't get it. Like I said it was a witch hunt from the beginning.

    More to the point, that thread did nothing to answer my question of "what is with the heavy opposition to pro gear?" Unless the answer is "because jinjuku likes it."
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    If you want to applaud me or curse me out for the last comment let's not do it here. I'll take the pro audio discussion into the new attack thread, so that if people want to attack me too they won't have to go back and forth between threads.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    "what is with the heavy opposition to pro gear?"

    If you don't know the answer, try some for yourself and then you will know.

    As for juju, if you don't understand why he is here and why he isn't wanted here, you are not reading with the lights on.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    It seems that many of the most lauded (and expensive) of systems have separate subwoofers.

    News to me.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    News to me.

    Seriously?

    Wilson Audio WAMM7
    German Physiiks Emperor
    MBL 1X-treme
    Acapella Triolon
    Griphon Poseidon
    Goldmund Apologue (kind of)
    Transmission Audio Megatrend
    etc
    etc
    etc
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    If you don't know the answer, try some for yourself and then you will know.

    As for juju, if you don't understand why he is here and why he isn't wanted here, you are not reading with the lights on.

    I had a Muse Model One Hundred. It was pretty decent. And I'm not the only one who thought so. Like I mentioned, Seigfried Linkwitz (yes, THAT Linkwitz) uses pro drivers and amps in his designs like the HIGHLY acclaimed Orion. Moreover, many companies like Emerald Physics are putting out very well received high end gear utilizing pro audio components.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • halo71
    halo71 Posts: 4,603
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    I just think you may want to reconsider your reasoning.

    Good God, give me a little more credit than that please! I never said that taking a tube guitar amp would be suited for running hifi. I simply made the comparison of how much better I prefer tube guitar amps....while playing guitar. Over solid state amps....while playing guitar. So....I am sure I would prefer tube 'audio' amps of solid state while listening to ....audio.

    Trust me, I full well know the difference and my reasoning is sound! :tongue:
    --Gary--
    Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    pffff... amateurs and their subs, when will they learn?

    subwoffer_stereo_huge.jpg
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    halo71 wrote: »
    Good God, give me a little more credit than that please! I never said that taking a tube guitar amp would be suited for running hifi. I simply made the comparison of how much better I prefer tube guitar amps....while playing guitar. Over solid state amps....while playing guitar. So....I am sure I would prefer tube 'audio' amps of solid state while listening to ....audio.

    Trust me, I full well know the difference and my reasoning is sound! :tongue:

    fair enough
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    Seriously?

    Wilson Audio WAMM7
    German Physiiks Emperor
    MBL 1X-treme
    Acapella Triolon
    Griphon Poseidon
    Goldmund Apologue (kind of)
    Transmission Audio Megatrend
    etc
    etc
    etc

    Yeah, ok. However, there are plenty that don't.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    Moreover, many companies like Emerald Physics are putting out very well received high end gear utilizing pro audio components.

    That Behringer crossover box EP sells with their speakers is a piece of junk. One of the first things folks do is modify it or replace it. One dealer informed me that it's not even the same piece that EP shows their speakers with.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • halo71
    halo71 Posts: 4,603
    edited January 2011
    I am beginning to think that "someone" around here has two accounts! :rolleyes:
    --Gary--
    Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    Keiko wrote: »
    That's obvious.

    laughable.
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    That Behringer crossover box EP sells with their speakers is a piece of junk. One of the first things folks do is modify it or replace it. One dealer informed me that it's not even the same piece that EP shows their speakers with.

    Thats correct, EP offers an upgrade, which they highly recommend. But the lower ended one certainly makes it easier for peolpe to get the system home, Upgrading the processor is an easy upgrade. Not much different than Jolida shipping something out with crappy tubes...
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited January 2011
    Upgrading the processor is an easy upgrade. Not much different than Jolida shipping something out with crappy tubes...

    That is a serious stretch by any standard.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    deleted double post
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited January 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    Yeah, ok. However, there are plenty that don't.

    so what? all I said is there are many that do. I didn't say all. Hell, i didn't even say most. It's ok to be wrong once in a while. I am all the time. :wink:
    design is where science and art break even.
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