Tri lams harsh?

Ron-P

Ron-P what fronts are you running? Are they bi-wired?

RT55's and CS400. Currently all are bi-amped with Adcom 2-channel's.


Peace Out~:D

ncw

Originally posted by danger boy


[cut...]

2. yes some recordings on CD are brighter than others movies......

Home theater really rocks with this set up. Clean, clear and not to bright at all.

Same experience here with CD music vs Home Theater. The movie makers must have done the right thing.

danger boy

Originally posted by ncw
Same experience here with CD music vs Home Theater. The movie makers must have done the right thing.

ncw,

yeah i guess it could be that CD's are limited to 16 bits or 20 bits for HDCD. whereby a DVD's audio track is not limited to that. Maybe that's why movies in DD or DTS sound better.. better range in both upper and lower end.

Anyone out there confirm of deny this?

VR3

I hear SACD and DVD-A have very little to no sibilance. CD's, are kinda like tapes with better quality. They sound good, but their not great. It mainly depends on the recording, not the disc. I have heard CD's that are AWESOME (DREAM THEATER) and some that are something that makes me turn off my stereo and jam to the computer (CHEVELLE). Either way, in the end it is the recording quality, not the tweeters. The Tri-lams sound sweet. They are very detailed tweeters, especially when they are exstended to their full exstention of 25-26khz. They sound full, with seperates they exstend that far and they get that sort of tang to them. Their sweet tweeters, but their not always smooth. At high volumes, they can get almost Klipsch on ya, especially in my small room with all 5 speakers on. Thats why I listen to 2 channel stereo alot. But overall, the Tri-Lams compared to a tweeter like bose, their a golden stalion.
Either way, the Tri-Lams are very detailed tweeters, and can get bright but overall are some of the best tweeters I have heard. The only other tweeter i have heard in its price range that beats it is an Infinity tweeter. The high end of infinity is totally in a different class than the Tri-Lam, it seems so. Way smoother - difference? Infinity has ZERO lows. Anyways, that is my 2 cents plus more.

Sean, I dunno. LoL, I enjoy reading your post, I think they are entertaining...lol, so entertaining that its like a mission to figure them out! HHAHAHAHHAH!

Airplay355

would this all boil down to everyone's difference in opinion? i mean its nearly impossible to make a speaker that everyone is 100% satisfied with so i guess ur gonna just have to mess around with ur system until u get what u like, if u liked it before then get rid of any changes u have made to it, or um maybe a new CD player? lol i have had bad expirences with toshiba DVD players so y not start there? if that doesnt work u can always return it with no problems.

maybe the bi-wire is to blame, get rid of it and listen, not everyone thinks bi-wire is better maybe u r one of those ppl. it will probably be hard for people to give you advice since everyone has their own opinions and tastes.

i owuld say just set aside a day to seriously f*** around with ur system. and if u still can't find find a solution then maybe its time to buy some Bose (kidding)

since u guys seem to say that movies are recorded better then CDs which they probably are, why not listen to the score of a movie on CD? The Matrix Reloaded score is a good listen and im sure theres plenty of others out there.

idk im just blabbin, u'll figure it out eventually.

Tour2ma

Originally posted by Airplay355
idk im just blabbin, u'll figure it out eventually.

Well I think I followed you. Something along the lines of fix it, tweak it, eff it...

Lil' Bro,
The only ones in the house groovin' to anything over 22k, even with your young ears, are your pooches. Any thing over 19 or 20k can be annoying to us, especially after we have a few miles on us. It's why DQ owners disconnect the super-tweets on their 10's.

AS for the DVD vs. CD thing... dunno about the recording/ mixing end. But as I said earlier with 5 or 7 ch's in play the wpc is down compared to 2 ch trying to achieve the same SPL. Easier on the amp can equal easier on the ears.

wallstreet

wow. i feel compelled to post on this thread just because everybody else did.:p
I too have tri-lams. Of course mine are stuck in the antique ls90's. I must be the only one on this board with these dinosaurs. Generally speaking, movies are mixed with more highs since they're designed to be played in a movie theater. One of the philosophies behing thx equilazation is to tame the top end. I don't find the tri lams harsh sounding. When I bought the 90's it came down to Polk and Klipsch. The horn tweeter was so much brighter than Polk's tri lam. The decision to choose Polk was purely personal preference.

danger boy

Ok guys.. first off I have to say a big thanks to everyone who posted on here and offered very good suggestions on how to solve my harshness problem with my tweeters.

I couldn't wait till the weekend.. so tonight after work, I decided to grab a beer and go to work.

It was really quite easy... but here is what I ended up doing and what the results are.

A few months back I biwired the RT800i's. Loved the imaging. Improvement overalll, pleased with it at this point. Only problem was a big increase in the upper end.. so much so that it became fatiguing to listen to for very long. Hmmm?

A month and a half ago I purchased a tube DAC. Love that too. CD's now sounded better than ever. BUT, while the DAC is great and stuff... it didn't solve my harshness/brightness problem.

Up to now.. . I knew I had lost some bass when I biwired the fronts. Ok.. not a big loss i was thinking.

Tonight on someones suggestion I reinstalled the metal jumpers ( I will switch them out with 12 guage wire soon), and wham! Immediately it tamed the highs... and more than ever.. it brought back the bass that had been lost. OMG! I am so very happy at what the difference is now that things are back to where they should be in terms of highs and lows.

Those 800's put out some nice bass. I didin't realize I has lost so much lower end frequencies till tonight.

The brightness problem is all but gone now. It made such a nice improvement in the sound quailty.

If anyone is having the same problem I highly suggest you reinstall the straps on your speakers. I was under then impression that you could not use the speakers with them bi-wired and with the straps in place. I was wrong.

Thanks again guys for the help. That's what makes this forum such a thrill to be a part of. You guys ROCK!

If anyone needs a better explanation, please get a hold of me. FOr now I consider this harshness problem solved. Case closed.

thanks, Al

dcarlson

That's cool you solved the problem, man. No, extra component buying or anything. Straps and Boom.

Airplay355

doesnt biwiring with the metal jumpers kind of defeat the purpose of bi-wiring since the signals are mixed once again through the metal jumpers maybe not but thats how i understood it but hey it is 3:20 in the morning so maybe i just can't remember things right

Tour2ma

Happy for you db...

Just to be clear, you reinstalled the straps and left the bi-wire in place?

Airplay,
03:20 or not, you're fine. Yes it does defeat the bi-wire, but that's what db was trying to do to see if it tamed the highs and appears that it did.

brettw22

Originally posted by ATCVenom
How boring would it be, to just respond saying "f*** you", and leaving it at that?

Oh sure......leave it to ME to step up here and defend the F-bomb.....
I'll use it, abuse it, and if any of y'all don't like it, ya can go **** yourselves.... (damn that felt good)

Originally posted by Tour2ma
It's why DQ owners disconnect the super-tweets on their 10's.

It's 12:30am and I seriously read that as Dairy Queen......jeez is it time for bed.

F1nut

danger boy,

Hmmmmm.....interesting read. I'm going to try that asap and will post my results.

pjdami

Danger Boy,

Glad to see you are digging the straps now and has helped your problem for free!!

Honestly, I never tried this myself. I have always biwired from the start. I might just try this myself.

Airplay,

Now that I think about it, biwiring with the straps should be no different than running thicker speaker wire to your speakers since the straps jumper the connections.

Hmmm....

Interesting read and definitely worth a listen ... even if its just for experimentation sakes...

I love experimentation...

PJ

danger boy

I think you all are right.. now that i reinstalled the metal straps.. it prob does act like the speakers are unbiwired, just with better wires/cables.

Saturday I will unbiwire the fronts and see if there is any loss of anything. I think i did this already a while back..and all it did was that I lost some imaging and openness to them. But it's worth revisiting again. Maybe they are now acting like there are not biwired.

I liked the clarity of biwiring, but it was to harsh in my case. Here is a thought. I wonder if I could bi wire and remove the straps on only one speaker. and leave the straps on the other and have them both biwired? Wonder what kind of sound that would produce? Probably lopsided no doubt. BUt what the hell.

FYI. I do have a RT1000i that i swapped out with one of the 800i's. The highs were to harsh with it even with the straps on. The 800's are smoother in the mids and highs is what i was hearing.

Guys please do post your finding in here. I'm very interested in your own findings.

Al

Tour2ma

Can’t you just feel a huge “Down with Bi-wire” movement brewing…

Originally posted by pjdami
Now that I think about it, biwiring with the straps should be no different than running thicker speaker wire to your speakers since the straps jumper the connections.

From a "blow the amp up" standpoint, that's correct. Argued this loud and long when I first started posting. But in db’s case I am struggling to understand why just adding the jumpers helped. Forgive me if I think “out loud” here a bit…

Popular belief here is that the straps limit current flow to the tweeters if wire is only run to the mid-bass posts. There have been several credible testimonials to an improved sound with the elimination of the straps via bi-wiring or replacing the straps with wire. May be we have wrongly pointed to the straps as the key factor in these instances. Anyway I was banking on the “resistance” of the straps to tame the highs when I urged terminating the speaker runs on the mid-woof posts only when the straps were reinstalled. Quite the contrary it appears their conductance has somehow solved the problem… but how?

From a circuit analysis standpoint the only thing I can see adding the jumper to the bi-wire arrangement is that it helps insure that the voltage potential at the amp’s output terminals is seen by both pairs of speaker posts. Now why wouldn’t they have been the same before the jumpers were added? The total resistance of the two runs would have to be different. So what are the potential sources of this difference?

Start with the drivers’ impedance and resistance in their respective crossovers. But these are the same in both cases as they come after the binder posts, so I think we can ignore them. Other potential differences…
- contact at the amp’s terminals;
- the resistance of the two wire runs;
- contact at the speakers’ binding posts.

db,
Please describe your terminations at the amp and the speakers. Dual bananas? Bare wire? If bananas at the amp terminals, are they “stacked?

dcarlson

I'm sticking to biwiring. No changes here...

faster100

I knew you could leave the bi-wire intact and till use the straps, some people won't listen LOL, I plan to do the same to see if this solves my brightness,

and please don't tell me it defeats the bi-wire, we know that.. But so what.. now you have a single run for each terminal instead of just one set.. gotta be better.. and i don't think "WE" hear that much difference with bi-wire, but it looks cool :cool:

ncw

Al,

Originally posted by danger boy
Ok guys.. first off I have to say a big thanks to everyone who posted on here and offered very good suggestions on how to solve my harshness problem with my tweeters.

You're welcome, on behalf of everyone.

I couldn't wait till the weekend.. so tonight after work, I decided to grab a beer and go to work.

Aha. Beer relaxes you. This can potentially change your ears' response.

The brightness problem is all but gone now. It made such a nice improvement in the sound quailty.

If anyone is having the same problem I highly suggest you reinstall the straps on your speakers. I was under then impression that you could not use the speakers with them bi-wired and with the straps in place. I was wrong.

Beer aside, it could also be that you have loose or oxidized connection to the low frequency terminals. By reinstalling the straps, the connection became better and hence the bass.
That's only one possibility.

So, in no particular order, the possibilities are:

1. Beer - which relaxes you.
2. Weekend - which also relaxes you ( In my previous post, I mentioned weekend as a factor.)
3. Restoration of good electrical connection at the low freq terminals of the speakers (by unscrewing and replacing the straps).
4. The presence of the straps.

In all likelyhood, it is probably #4.

Al, when weekday comes around, continue listening to see if you really solved the harshness problem. Chances are you did.

---:)

setzer808

Not sure if I read correctly, but did someone suggest that using the upper vs the lower posts can make a sonic difference on the RT55i's? Just curious, I'm using a single run and straps and just wanted to check.

faster100

Ok i just replaced the straps and left my bi-wire hooked also.. I do notice increased bass.. harshness may be tamed a bit more.. i have a really small room though, and maybe being 9 feet from my mains is my main problem, I listen to FM stereo more then cd's as of now and it seems a lot brighter then my cd's now. I went to analog instead of the co-ax for cd listening, that helped. now the straps i believe have helped also.. I got my spl meter out and at average of 104-106 db it starts to get harsh depending on the material im listening to.. it doesnt get much worse with a max spl of 108 on the stuff i listened to today.. now 100 or less, no problem..... I havent had a harsh problem on HT/dvd's at all

danger boy

faster100

104 to 106db is loud guy. If I read your post right... you did notice an increase in bass, but when listening to the FM stereo.. it made it brighter?

YOu then went to analog output from your player for CD listening and it was not as harsh?

I"m not sure if the biwiring with the straps on is any different than just running a single wire and keeping the straps on . I know that it's doubtful that I will ever run the 800's with the strap removed again. The loss of bass and the harshness in highs is just to much to handle.

danger boy

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Can’t you just feel a huge “Down with Bi-wire” movement brewing…

Ummmm, well not exactly. I think for everyone who does bi wire, each person gets different results. I'm not knocking biwiring at all. Just in my case, I'm biwiring plus keeping the metal straps in place. As long as it doens't hurt the speakers or the amps, it appears to have solved my problem. Plus I got some bass back... in the lowest frequencies, that i had lost.

Biwiring isn't for everyone. As we've all read several times... some people don't notice any difference when they biwire. I did.. a dramatic difference. It's all about tweaking your system to make it sound the way YOU want it to sound. Not what the other guy is doing to his system.


Since it didn't hurt anything and is a very easy tweak to do.. I suggest everyone who has biwired their fronts to check it out.. and see if what results you get with biwiring and the straps left on. I just hate to go strapless anymore.

Tour2ma

db,
Just an attempt at humor with the "down with bi-wire" comment. It is cool that Folks are experimenting and determining what is good/ better/ best for their system.

After faster's report atop yours, I'm starting to get an image of increased current flow to the mid-woofs and decreased to the tweets with the straps back in place. This current shift would tend to explain the changes in sound, you both report.

Would be interesting to see if your HT calibration levels have changed with the straps reinstalled. I'd suspect they have based upon your accounts.

faster100

Originally posted by danger boy
faster100

104 to 106db is loud guy. If I read your post right... you did notice an increase in bass, but when listening to the FM stereo.. it made it brighter?

YOu then went to analog output from your player for CD listening and it was not as harsh?

I"m not sure if the biwiring with the straps on is any different than just running a single wire and keeping the straps on . I know that it's doubtful that I will ever run the 800's with the strap removed again. The loss of bass and the harshness in highs is just to much to handle.

you read correct, your right, that is pretty loud and i don't listen all the time at this volume.. but some times mostly while cd listening. I have just about solved my cd player being harsh all but getting a quality player will help anymore..

I listen to "all" types of music and depends what it is at what volume i can listen.. rock in general is distortion at high volumes and i don't listen to it much except the older stuff that is more mellow, like the Doors, Rush and the like.. I also listen to R&B,and would love to aquire some big band and blues and classical on cd, for now we have a redio station that plays all classical stuff 24/7 but that station seems to have a hiss..

I did notice bass increase right off the bat, as i did one at a time, i noticed the tweeter tone down compared to the other one as well.. like i said, very high volumes it gets harsh.. maybe the tinnitus and ringing in my ears for the last 5 years has decreased some of my hearing.. I don't know.. I never did notice a difference with bi-wireing really.. maybe it's me

dcarlson

Some people replace the stock straps with speaker wire. You may want to give that a try.

mantis

Is this thead still going on?There bright.........there annoying.......
your trying to fix whats broken............bi wiring with the metal straps in..........ok

Going back to 2 conductor and putting the metal straps in........ok

Are we all having fun?

danger boy

Originally posted by mantis
Is this thead still going on?There bright.........there annoying.......
your trying to fix whats broken............bi wiring with the metal straps in..........ok

Going back to 2 conductor and putting the metal straps in........ok

Are we all having fun?

This thread was going along great... we made progress.. till HE showed up. WTF is your problem Dan? So this topic doesn't interest you because we're not discussing B&K or Rotel. Start your own thread then. sheesh.

mantis

Did my reply make you mad?

Frank Z

You know I was thinking that if this keeps up....somebody might leave the forum.....again.