Tri lams harsh?

danger boy

Originally posted by F1nut
danger boy,

Help me understand about this brightness you hear. Is it really brightness or is it sibilance?

F1nut, what is the difference between brightness and sibilance?

I call it harshness... it's why you listen to a CD like I am right now.. listening to the Best of U2. some of the songs are so bright that's I can't even be in the room with any kind of volume or it fatigues your ears right away.. and is almost painful to listen to.

I guess if you heard it... you're say "Wow, that sucks that your highs are so harsh", but dude love the imaging. ha ha ha.

so what i'm thinking I need to do at this point is one, switch out the Monster Z2 bi-wires. Change my source player for CD's. Right now i'm using a Toshiba DVD player as my source for CD listening.
Finally, maybe consider bypassing the external amps and hook everything up to the receiver again and see if that's where the harshness is coming from.

Al

danger boy

Originally posted by STUFFMD
One thing I noticed is that if you bi-wire the Rt's they sound very open and good, but if you put the straps back on, I noticed that the speaker smoothed out significantly...
Somthing to try ..Stuff

so you're saying un-bi-wire them and place the straps or 12 guage wire back on the RT's? because you can't run them bi-wired with the straps on right? What would happen if I did? blow a driver prob, huh?

faster100

Originally posted by danger boy
so you're saying un-bi-wire them and place the straps or 12 guage wire back on the RT's? because you can't run them bi-wired with the straps on right? What would happen if I did? blow a driver prob, huh?

nope, nothing.... if its coming from the same post, its just like having thicker speaker wire.

danger boy

Originally posted by faster100
nope, nothing.... if its coming from the same post, its just like having thicker speaker wire.

Hmmmmm? something I will have to try i guess. because when I added the biwires a few month ago and removed the straps. is when the harshness really began.

STUFFMD

What I was saying Dangerboy is with straps back on ...correct. Non Bi-Wired. Ron thanks for the response.
Stuff

brettw22

I don't think that it's a good idea to have the jumper straps in there and have them truly bi-wired. I'd call Polk to see what the outcome of that would be, but I think that it's been talked about in the past and indicated to be a BAD idea to have the straps in the mix when bi-wiring is done........

dcarlson

Putting the straps in bi-wired is the same as not bi-wired with straps in. No damage will happen.

faster100

Nothing will happen, Ok say you have the one set of wire coming from the front binding post on the receiver, to the bottom or top for that matter post on a set of 800's/rti70's... then you place the strap or a piece of wire to the other posts ie:tweets/woofs... same thing you still have wire coming from the front mains on the receiver to the post on the speaks and they are both joined(top post and bottom of the speaker) with a wire run or metal straps..

Bi-wire is safe, Bi-amp is another story.. don't do it if you have different amps powering each set of binding post on the speakers.. I have mine bi-wired with monster bi-wire.. today i will replace the straps and see how it sounds.. and leave my bi-wire in place ... Mine is bright also

jrausch

Danger,

What kind of data link are you using between your CD player and DAC?

F1nut

Originally posted by danger boy
what is the difference between brightness and sibilance?

Sibilance is when words that have S's and T's sound like SSSSSSS or TTTTTTT. It's not smooth and kinda hurts the ears.
Brightness is when the highs overwhelm the mid's and bass. It sounds unbalanced.

pjdami

Sibilance is when words that have S's and T's sound like SSSSSSS or TTTTTTT. It's not smooth and kinda hurts the ears.

This is a good definition.

Some recordings seem to be "brightly" recorded period. In these recordings, I am particularly sensitive to the sibilance at the end of female vocals. It really annoys me and I hate listening to it.

Some examples of recordings with a lot of sibilance are like Sheryl Crow cds, Evanescense, ... I'll have to listen again and find out more.

I have found that different gear (electronics / wire / speakers) helps to tame the sibilance bigtime. If its a brightly recorded cd one will not be able to get rid of it all together but one can reduce it tremendously so that listening to the cd is enjoyable and nonfatiguing. That has been my main goal in the past few months. I'm almost there...

Paul

pjdami

This is the evolution of my listening gear over the past few months and how the sibilance has decreased each time:

Onkyo receiver + RT35i + monster cable XP

to

Yamaha RX-V1300 + RT35i + monster cable XP

to

Yamaha RX-V1300 prepro + NAD C270 amp + RT35i + MC XP

to

Yamaha RX-V1300 prepro + NAD C270 amp + Paradigm Studio 40

to

Rotel RSX 1055 + LSi 9 + IXOS Super gamma 7 + Transparent ICs

danger boy

Originally posted by jrausch
Danger,

What kind of data link are you using between your CD player and DAC?

the link between the player and DAC is a Vampire coax .5 meter in length. very heavy duty 75ohm cable. it came with the DAC. I saw no reason to switch it out.

dcarlson

What type of receiver are you using?

danger boy

Originally posted by F1nut
Sibilance is when words that have S's and T's sound like SSSSSSS or TTTTTTT. It's not smooth and kinda hurts the ears.
Brightness is when the highs overwhelm the mid's and bass. It sounds unbalanced.

F1,

I do have some of the sibilance on some recordings i have noticed. and brightness too where it overwhelms the mids and bass.

I think un bi wiring will help. i'll try that later tonight . look forward to it actually.

It sounds like i'm not the only one fighting a brightness in their RT series speakers. esp the RT800i's and RT1000i's.

danger boy

Originally posted by dcarlson
What type of receiver are you using?

receiver is a 1999 Marantz SR5000. at first it sounded to laid back.. but over the years as I have upgraded the connectors, wires, etc.. it has opened up, but maybe the receiver is to bright to begin with.. not really sure. I don't have another one to swap it out to know for sure.

I know a few other guys in here have the same receiver. I think Ron-P might have one too.

VR3

I dunno what u guys are talking about. The S's roll off VERY smooth in Evanescence for me. No sibilance there. However, CD's like Chevelle and them, the sibilance level is sky high...Its bad, almost unaudible at times. But I figure its just not my day..haha, but I dont know what u guys are talking about Evanescence, I think its recorded awesome.

dcarlson

Hopefully someone with the same receiver can chime in on the brightness, if any.

I have a Denon receiver and I find that in surround it sounds awesome no complaints, but in 2 channel it's on the bright side. Once I can save up enough cash I'll be getting an integrated amp for 2 channel. I've auditioned some and there's a huge difference between receiver and integrated. Seeing you already have the amp maybe a preamp is in order.

Just another of many thoughts...

F1nut

pjdami,

It seems the more I upgrade the more sibilance I get. It's like it was there all the time, but as I clean up the signal path the more noticeable it becomes.

Ron-P

Like I said in a previous post, I have the SR5000. Even before I added the Adcoms, I had no problems with brightness, I love the sound. I was and still am using all Monster interconnects and wire.


Peace Out~:D

pjdami

Mx,

Perhaps you are correct about the Evanascense. I just listened to a few songs on both of my systems. The first song when she says screaming, deceiving...there's a tiny bit there but may just be because she is singing too close to the mic. Jamming cd by the way....been wearing it out...dang concert down here soldout too soon last month and couldn't go.

However, Sheryl Crow's song "soak up the sun" has a lot of sibilance that was just too shrill for me on some of my former setups.

It seems the more I upgrade the more sibilance I get. It's like it was there all the time, but as I clean up the signal path the more noticeable it becomes.

I had a similar problem with upgrades too. Some combinations / upgrades can be very revealing and unforgiving. One has to find the combo that works best.....I'm finding out that it takes a while and a lot of experimentation.

Interesting read about the biwiring. I'm going back to single wire run of Transparent Musicwave on my LSi 9 once it gets here from an Audiogon deal (biwiring with Transparent is EXPENSIVE!). I'm hoping this is the last piece of the puzzle for me.

danger boy

Originally posted by Ron-P
Like I said in a previous post, I have the SR5000. Even before I added the Adcoms, I had no problems with brightness, I love the sound. I was and still am using all Monster interconnects and wire.


Peace Out~:D

Ron-P what fronts are you running? Are they bi-wired?

Al

VR3

He runs RT55i, and I believe he Biamps them...i dunno, i believe so

Tour2ma

Interesting thread… a few thoughts on some of the points...

dangerboy,
In earlier posts you wrote…
“1. Room acoustics i think aren't the problem. it's solid walls, with enough furniture to dampen the sound. solid concrete floor with carpet and pad over it.”
While I am not saying it is your problem, smooth, solid, bare walls are a huge factor in high frequency distortion. While highs are easily absorbed, they can reflect off of very hard, smooth surfaces. The carpet should take you floor out of play. Try tacking a blanket to the rear wall and see if that helps. If yes, add more to the side walls.
Most of my back wall is glass and for critical listening at “modest” volumes the closing of some heavy, foam insulation backed drapes makes a noticeable difference in the highs.

And you wrote...
“2. yes some recordings on CD are brighter than others. this harshness is usually only on CD's and the tuner. not on DVD movies. Home theater really rocks with this set up. Clean, clear and not to bright at all.”
The tuner’s lacking the problem is easy to understand. Upper frequency is likely no more than 16 kHz.
Older, AAD CD’s have an inherent problem with highs that were boosted for vinyl. It’s why in spite of the Purists’ view, sometimes a little home high frequency “tweaking” is sometimes necessary via the cursed treble knobs or, worse yet, an equalizer. :eek:
While less of an issue with the now standard, DDD or remastered AAD (ADD) issues, Engineers still don’t get it right all the time.
Where the DVD decoding take place in your system? It’s another potential difference. Also, do you play DVD concerts? How do they sound vs. movies?
Also don’t forget that for 2 channels to produce the same SPL as 5 or 7, you have to push your mains much harder.

and lastly:
“… because when I added the biwires a few month ago and removed the straps. is when the harshness really began.”
Aha! A clue…. Although faster and dc are right (thanks guys, I got tired of carrying this burden) that no damage occurs with bi-wire and jumpers both in place, you don’t want both. Drop back to the straps only to cut down on the signal, and hopefully the harshness, to the tweets.

F1,
I've never heard sibilance with “T’s”… only S’s, soft C’s, etc.

Lastly.... ATC,
Bud, you posted a couple of the most beautifully restrained replies I’ve seen to a direct gig. Kudos to ya...
While I have never heard any harshness from my SDA’s tweets that I did not associate with the source material, I’ll do a little playing with my SDA’s with/ without SDA cable and see if I hear any difference in the quality of the tweets. While I am inclined to believe that what you are hearing is related to your amp’s compatibility issue than the SDA effect, I have to admit I haven’t a clue as to why the stress the cable places on your amp would tend to mellow it’s highs.
Maybe F1 would care to do so as well on problem material with SDA in place and see if it has any impact.

gidrah

Originally posted by brettw22
ATC......pardon if this comes off as overly rude...but for some reason, I get a mental picture of you sitting at your puter doing draft after draft of your posts....just seems so......starched.....Relax...:D

You may be correct. On the other hand he could be the 2nd smartest person on this site.:D Or the 180 degree difference may be attributed to crack.:D Don't worry she'll be home soon. She might even bring you a gift. Penicilan should clear it up though.

IME: The tri-lams are deffinately more detailed, bright , & harsh in the same room/gear set-up. They do much better in a larger room or a smaller room that is

IMHO: I would definately reconsider room acoustics. Even if it's not a cause it can be a solution. Furniture is good, but it only goes so high (height wise), whereas the tweets are usually ear level and directed toward your ear. Try a 2nd (or 3rd) layer of grill fabric over the tweeters. It won't show if you put it on the inside of your grills. Bookshelves are nice, as are tapestries, stucco, paintings, etc. for this. You could possibly toe them out a little more so you don't get the full tri-lam onslaught.

Nothing in your system makes me jump to a conclusion or answer. Other than to say go back to the way it was before it was harsh. If you think it's the bi-wires, reconnect the strap and put both connections on one end (bass or highs). If you can't do this due to connectors get an adapter or chop off the ends.

It may also be due to the hearing loss. Just because you're less sensitive to a given range doesn't mean your less agitated by it. This is especially true if loss is due to damage.

Good luck.

Tour2ma

gidrah,
No offense, but are you suffering from a little sleep deprivation?

Originally posted by gidrah
Don't worry she'll be home soon. She might even bring you a gift.

They do much better in a larger room or a smaller room that is

So it's that medium room that's a killer?

I wouldn't put his speaker runs on his high frequency posts. That would still send the "pure" signal to the tweets.

On the other hand we agree on the acoustics and I like your idea about going inside the grills and doing a little attenuation there, at least as a test. In other words, time to get my **** to bed, too.

G'nite...

gidrah

Originally posted by Tour2ma
gidrah,
No offense, but are you suffering from a little sleep deprivation? I wouldn't put his speaker runs on his high frequency posts. That would still send the "pure" signal to the tweets.
In other words, time to get my **** to bed, too.

G'nite...

I would recommend trying both terminals to anybody that has a jumper. Many speakers benefit from this, some do not. Most people assume to put the wires on the bottom. The thought behind it is that the tweeter uses much less signal but is more dependent on the quality of it. Sure it's a direct feed. What better place to have it? The tweet takes what it needs and the abundant scraps are fed via jumper to the mid/bass.

Connected at bottom the bass/mid gets what it needs and send the scraps to the tweeter. The tweeter usually receives more signal than it needs. The extra is jammed down it's throat and then gets burped up, down the jumper, back to the hungrier mid/woof.

I hope you have pleasant dreams!

VR3

ATC, you speak like a riddler, you have to go on a mile to get to the point....

danger boy

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Interesting thread… a few thoughts on some of the points...

dangerboy,
In earlier posts you wrote…
“1. Room acoustics i think aren't the problem. it's solid walls, with enough furniture to dampen the sound. solid concrete floor with carpet and pad over it.”
While I am not saying it is your problem, smooth, solid, bare walls are a huge factor in high frequency distortion. While highs are easily absorbed, they can reflect off of very hard, smooth surfaces. The carpet should take you floor out of play. Try tacking a blanket to the rear wall and see if that helps. If yes, add more to the side walls.
Most of my back wall is glass and for critical listening at “modest” volumes the closing of some heavy, foam insulation backed drapes makes a noticeable difference in the highs.

And you wrote...
“2. yes some recordings on CD are brighter than others. this harshness is usually only on CD's and the tuner. not on DVD movies. Home theater really rocks with this set up. Clean, clear and not to bright at all.”
The tuner’s lacking the problem is easy to understand. Upper frequency is likely no more than 16 kHz.
Older, AAD CD’s have an inherent problem with highs that were boosted for vinyl. It’s why in spite of the Purists’ view, sometimes a little home high frequency “tweaking” is sometimes necessary via the cursed treble knobs or, worse yet, an equalizer. :eek:
While less of an issue with the now standard, DDD or remastered AAD (ADD) issues, Engineers still don’t get it right all the time.
Where the DVD decoding take place in your system? It’s another potential difference. Also, do you play DVD concerts? How do they sound vs. movies?
Also don’t forget that for 2 channels to produce the same SPL as 5 or 7, you have to push your mains much harder.

and lastly:
“… because when I added the biwires a few month ago and removed the straps. is when the harshness really began.”
Aha! A clue…. Although faster and dc are right (thanks guys, I got tired of carrying this burden) that no damage occurs with bi-wire and jumpers both in place, you don’t want both. Drop back to the straps only to cut down on the signal, and hopefully the harshness, to the tweets.

F1,
I've never heard sibilance with “T’s”… only S’s, soft C’s, etc.

Lastly.... ATC,
Bud, you posted a couple of the most beautifully restrained replies I’ve seen to a direct gig. Kudos to ya...
While I have never heard any harshness from my SDA’s tweets that I did not associate with the source material, I’ll do a little playing with my SDA’s with/ without SDA cable and see if I hear any difference in the quality of the tweets. While I am inclined to believe that what you are hearing is related to your amp’s compatibility issue than the SDA effect, I have to admit I haven’t a clue as to why the stress the cable places on your amp would tend to mellow it’s highs.
Maybe F1 would care to do so as well on problem material with SDA in place and see if it has any impact.

Tour,

Lots of good ideas here.. this weekend i'll have the time to play around with it and see what results or improvements take place.

I'll post the results after the weekend. I'm very interested in solving the problems I have.

Have a good weekend. I know i will.

Al

Tour2ma

db,
Thanks... have fun.

gidrah,
Thanks to you too for taking my little sleep gig the way it was intended.
In general I would not disagree with your thoughts on terminating at the high frequency posts. However, in db's case it is possible that it might just perpetuate his problem given that he recalled its onset as coinciding with bi-wiring.