Hawkeye's SRS2 Experience

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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited July 2010
    Nope Gordon, not starting a debate. Jesse got to use Mortite this week and shared his experience, I on the other hand haven't used it but think I've found something better and am just sharing the experience. I also have expressed my opinion about using non-audio products for audio gear in the past. It's just one of my quirks.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2010
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Nope Gordon, not starting a debate. Jesse got to use Mortite this week and shared his experience, I on the other hand haven't used it but think I've found something better and am just sharing the experience. I also have expressed my opinion about using non-audio products for audio gear in the past. It's just one of my quirks.

    Except since you haven't used it you can't say your method is better. Polk used Mortite to great success early on. All I can say is try it and see. If your paper gaskets are still in good shape after 25 years perhaps there is no need. But my office rig is very modest and I heard large benefits.

    That's all I'm saying...............try it and you be the judge. :)

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Polkersince85
    Polkersince85 Posts: 2,883
    edited July 2010
    Just a heads up, if you were lucky enough to get a set of rings from Larry, the drill guide ring makes a good template for making new gaskets if you don't want to use a sealant. I may try some of the 8.5 x 11 foam sheets from Walmart as a prototype. I think that the mechanical coupling to the cabinet may come from the screws to the back rings flush with the inside surface.

    Any thoughts?
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited July 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Except since you haven't used it you can't say your method is better. Polk used Mortite to great success early on. All I can say is try it and see. If your paper gaskets are still in good shape after 25 years perhaps there is no need. But my office rig is very modest and I heard large benefits.

    That's all I'm saying...............try it and you be the judge. :)

    H9

    You are correct Sir! That is why I made the statement that I've not tried Mortite and in a earlier post said it was just my opinion based on what a very few others have said on the down side about Mortite.

    Is the PE speaker sealer better, I don't know but based on what I do know about Mortite's properties, I'm fairly certain, and again JMHO, it is easier to use, easier to remove, much more pliable then Mortite and based on the fact that it sealed a 2' split seam in the corner of one of my big boys, and has held up very well without glue, nails or staples, it is a great product.

    I am satisfied with the results of the PE product so I'll just continue to enjoy that others are having great sucess with Mortite.

    I don't know if you've noticed but whenever a newcomer to SDAs posts up, I run down all the tweaks they can do to improve sonics. One of them that I mention is Mortite but I express my experience with PE speaker sealer and state that many, many here use Mortite.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited July 2010
    Polkersince85 wrote: »
    Just a heads up, if you were lucky enough to get a set of rings from Larry, the drill guide ring makes a good template for making new gaskets if you don't want to use a sealant. I may try some of the 8.5 x 11 foam sheets from Walmart as a prototype. I think that the mechanical coupling to the cabinet may come from the screws to the back rings flush with the inside surface.

    Any thoughts?

    Hey bro, I tried Part Express foam sealers, both thicknesses, on my MWs and they did a horrible job of coupling the drivers to the cabinet as well as didn't do a good job of sealing so there were air leaks, albeit very slight, but they were there.

    If my orginal gasket for a given MW was still good I used that, in lieu of a bad or torn gasket I used the PE speaker sealer.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2010
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    You are correct Sir! That is why I made the statement that I've not tried Mortite and in a earlier post said it was just my opinion based on what a very few others have said on the down side about Mortite.

    Is the PE speaker sealer better, I don't know but based on what I do know about Mortite's properties, I'm fairly certain, and again JMHO, it is easier to use, easier to remove, much more pliable then Mortite and based on the fact that it sealed a 2' split seam in the corner of one of my big boys, and has held up very well without glue, nails or staples, it is a great product.

    I am satisfied with the results of the PE product so I'll just continue to enjoy that others are having great sucess with Mortite.

    I don't know if you've noticed but whenever a newcomer to SDAs posts up, I run down all the tweaks they can do to improve sonics. One of them that I mention is Mortite but I express my experience with PE speaker sealer and state that many, many here use Mortite.

    Joe, I hope you know I am partly bustin' your balls :p, but you should give the Mortite a try if you get a chance.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited July 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Joe, I hope you know I am partly bustin' your balls :p, but you should give the Mortite a try if you get a chance.

    H9

    Of course Mon ami' ! I just felt like hearing myself talk!:eek::D

    As far as the Mortite goes, I think once I get Larry's rings, I won't need any sealant, just the gaskets.
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  • Polkersince85
    Polkersince85 Posts: 2,883
    edited July 2010
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    Hey bro, I tried Part Express foam sealers,... so there were air leaks, albeit very slight, but they were there.

    I could see that since there are only four screws holding the driver in place. Slight warping between the screws could cause leaks. Maybe a combination of stiffer gasket material with a sealant would provide a better seal.

    That's one reason I am waiting to install my rings. The trial and error things may provide some useful info.
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited July 2010
    I think that there should be 12 evenly spaced fasteners around the edge of the drivers, just like the cover of my differential has. Well, maybe not 12, but certainly more than 4. I think I'll fire up the old drill press and make 4 additional holes for a total of 8 and see if that causes less distortion to the basket's shape.;)
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    I would not drill extra holes in a thin stamped basket.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited July 2010
    I don't know your reasons but, that is exactly what is used to distribute force evenly. Ever look at an oil or transmission pan? See how many fasteners there are ?;)
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    A trans or oil pan is thicker than the frame of your MW6XXX.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited July 2010
    What is your point/logic? I think you are missing the concept altogether. Since they are thicker.....then why aren't the fastener spacings on the pans farther apart like on MW drivers? Or better yet, look at the rivet spacing on the thin skin of an airplane's fuselage,They're really close together.:rolleyes:
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited July 2010
    I might be talking out my arse, but perhaps gdb is on to something here. The theory sounds logical. However, that would assume that the casework had been milled absolutely flat. Having only four screws allows for a bit of error in the machine work. Going to eight or more could have a benefit if the machine work was flat. Most mods are a trial and error exercise.

    That said, I'll let gdb drill up his drivers and post his findings:D I'm not prepared to try this just yet.

    By the way, rivets on an aircraft fuselage are there for shear strength, light weight connection and the cyclic pressurization of the the tube so gdb is on the right track.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited July 2010
    My opinion here is that four more holes in the MWs will weaken the metal and possibly cause it to become deformed. JMHO based on handling many MWs.
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited July 2010
    I thought it was time to try something today. They have been sitting flat footed with no bumpers or spikes since we got them home. As I mentioned earlier, I thought the low bass was a bit bloaty.

    So I went to Lowe's this morning and made some temp spikes out of 1/4 X 20 thread stock. I then placed them on top of my BDR pits. This raised the speaker 1 5/16 inches off the floor. This kept the lower tweeter 39.5 inches from the floor and roughly 2 inches bit above the ears. Probably not an ideal position so I may raise my chair to put the ears more in line with the lower tweeter.

    I've only listened to a couple CD's but the change is remarkable! The bloaty, fat sound has been tempered quite a bit. The attack and decay has cleaned up nicely and the vibration of the stings and bass drum is more in line of what I expected. I did think the big tympani hits in Chant by Four Play was a bit weak, but perhaps it is more accurate? Jury still out on that.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited July 2010
    I've tried a search and came up empty. Looking very closely at the front baffle, it appears somebody has been inside the box. One there is a slight depression where a thin blade was used to pry out the speaker (s) and two, a couple of them were upside down.

    Now I have two questions. First should the 6510's be on the inside or outside?

    Second, are the color codes correct on the SRS2 (87) drawing? I tried to copy the link with no luck.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,567
    edited July 2010
    The 6510's are the dimensional drivers and should be on the outside.

    They are correct in that black or blue is positive and white or green is negative.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited July 2010
    Thanks Jesse, found both the right dimensionals with the positive and negatives backwards, if the red dot denotes positive. I'll look at the stereo drivers next.

    Probably should have looked at this first! Oh well, I'm a newb!!

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,567
    edited July 2010
    The red dot is positive.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the black wiring is positive.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited July 2010
    Gosh I wished I looked at the wiring sooner! There were several mistakes per the schematic and I repostioned them per the drawing.

    While I had the stereo drivers out, I cleaned the connections and applied Dynamat to them. I'm going to do them in stages in order to gage the improvement. Next, I'm going to Dynamat the PR's, then the dimensionals. I haven't noticed it mentioned before, but I found it to be of benefit to throw a strip of the Dynamat in the freezer for 5-10 minutes. It seemed to help prevent smearing of the tar while removing the backing paper on small pieces.

    And since I'm a newb to the SDA, what is the deal with the automobile grade tap on the dimensional drivers? I was somewhat surprised to see something like that in there. Or, has somebody done a wicked change?!

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,567
    edited July 2010
    Face wrote: »
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the black wiring is positive.

    Mike, right that's what I said.

    Black or blue is positive and white or green is negative.

    The red dot (on the driver) is positive.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,567
    edited July 2010
    what is the deal with the automobile grade tap on the dimensional drivers?

    Huh?
    I found it to be of benefit to throw a strip of the Dynamat in the freezer for 5-10 minutes. It seemed to help prevent smearing of the tar while removing the backing paper on small pieces.

    Are you using Dynamat or Dynamat Extreme?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited July 2010
    I'm using Dynamat Extreme.

    Now to the connector. If you look at the SRS2 (87) drawing at D4, where there is a connection between the two dimensional drivers on the positive side, there is a blue wire tap. This tap is present in both speakers.

    Not right?

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited July 2010
    Face wrote: »
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the black wiring is positive.

    It is on mine.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,567
    edited July 2010
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    I'm using Dynamat Extreme.

    Ok, good.
    Now to the connector. If you look at the SRS2 (87) drawing at D4, where there is a connection between the two dimensional drivers on the positive side, there is a blue wire tap. This tap is present in both speakers.

    Not right?

    Gordon

    I can't help you with that one as I've never been inside that model.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited July 2010
    I still think the plastic tap is bit hokey and would have done it differently. I guess this comes with having a "rare" or less than desirable speaker! I'm going to start some searching on rebuilding the wireing inside the box. I thought I saw a thread around here about replacing the internal wiring, just didn't bookmark it. Something with Cardas wire???

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    Can you take a picture of the connector you're talking about?

    And a heads up, Cardas wire can be difficult to work with.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited July 2010
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    I still think the plastic tap is bit hokey and would have done it differently. I guess this comes with having a "rare" or less than desirable speaker! I'm going to start some searching on rebuilding the wireing inside the box. I thought I saw a thread around here about replacing the internal wiring, just didn't bookmark it. Something with Cardas wire???

    Gordon
    Face wrote: »
    Can you take a picture of the connector you're talking about?

    And a heads up, Cardas wire can be difficult to work with.

    And will change the whole sound of the speaker system. I had my SME V tonearm rewired with Cardas phono wires. Because of the very low voltage output of the cartridge it took forever to burn in those almost hair thin wires. It changed the sound of the tonearm but for the better.

    Cardas wire is expensive and as Mike said is hard to work with. If you use it you've got a heck of a job on your hands, if you don't like the way they sound you got a HELL of a job on your hands so think it through thoroughly.
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