Hawkeye's SRS2 Experience

Hawkeye · July 2010

Today was the first time I've ever listened to a SDA speaker. I'm going to document my impressions, upgrades and I may even learn how to post some pictures here! My claim to fame is not writing, so please don't expect magazine level prose! As a matter of fact, I have no claim to fame!!!

This pair of speak's are bone stock. Tops are beat up, one driver has the dust cap pushed in, no spikes or bumpers and snags in the fabric make for a fairly challanging project.

I presently have them hooked up to the 4 Ohm tap on my amps using a factory AI-1. Have not done the baked potatoe tweak yet, too soon. I'm trying to get a feel for them. Placed 10 inches off the wall and two feet from the side walls. I could get closer and still may if I move the rack. I'm not certain how much impact having gear between the pair will have. I also have the JL subs disabled to give them a fair shake.

I've listened to several CD's today and my initial impressions are very good. During the day, they sound a bit constricted as do my Martin Logans. However at night, during low level listening there has to be at least a 50% improvement which I found the same thing happening with the ML's.

The low bass has enough slam and accuracy but seems a bit bloaty depending on the cd. I'd like more clarity in the mid bass, which is definately veiled. The highs are showing some sibilance which I have not experienced before. T's and S's are too far pronounced for my taste.

The width and depth are still debatable. I probably don't have my postioning correct yet but I was expecting more of both at this point.

You might be thinking, with all those less than stellar points, how can I say my initial impression is very good. Frankly, to me, it is the tone and dynamics that make me want to experiment further.

I welcome all comments and recommendations to this thread. I'm frankly pretty excited about the potential these speakers have.

Gordon

Hawkeye · July 2010

Question. Are the drivers supposed to be so sticky or do I now have to go for blood test?

Gordon

F1nut · July 2010

Yes, sticky is good. If they are dirty you can clean them using Windex sprayed on a lint free cloth and wipe in a circular motion.

Usually, 5 to 6 inches off the back wall has the bass nice and tight. Being ten inches away and having booming issues could be your room or perhaps something isn't right with the speakers. Didn't you say that they have air leaks?

Hawkeye · July 2010

Jesse, I believe I have leaks. When I press on the PR, the drivers extend, but as soon as I let go they retract. Instantly.

My room is fairly well treated with traps. I have 5 bass traps along with several others so I imagine it is placement, spikes, leaks..........

Gordon

Ron Temple · July 2010

The sibilance is definitely the SL2000s. RDOs will take care of that.

F1nut · July 2010

Ok, when you release the pressure on the PR the mid-drivers should return immediately. What you want to do is push in the PR and watch how long it takes the mids to start to move back in. It should be 4 to 5 seconds.

What Ron said.

Hawkeye · July 2010

OK, I've always an issue with any type of metal tweeter. When you guy's mention the RDO, and this is what confuses me, would I want the 194 or 198 for the SRS2? That is if I have numbers right!

Gordon

kawizx9r · July 2010

IIRC, the 194's go in place of the SL2k's and the 198's in place of the SL3k's.

Anyone?

-Freddy

leroyjr1 · July 2010

hawkeye wrote: »

ok, i've always an issue with any type of metal tweeter. When you guy's mention the rdo, and this is what confuses me, would i want the 194 or 198 for the srs2? That is if i have numbers right!

Gordon

rdo-194

Hawkeye · July 2010

leroyjr1 wrote: »

rdo-194

And with the RDO-194 I have to do a crossover upgrade? Or is it a one for one with no changes to the crossover?

Gordon

F1nut · July 2010

You can change the tweeters without doing a thing to the crossovers, but I highly recommend doing the crossovers.

Hawkeye · July 2010

OK, first thing Tuesday, order four RDO-194's from Polk!

Gordon

hearingimpared · July 2010

Hawkeye wrote: »

Today was the first time I've ever listened to a SDA speaker. I'm going to document my impressions, upgrades and I may even learn how to post some pictures here! My claim to fame is not writing, so please don't expect magazine level prose! As a matter of fact, I have no claim to fame!!!

This pair of speak's are bone stock. Tops are beat up, one driver has the dust cap pushed in, no spikes or bumpers and snags in the fabric make for a fairly challanging project.

I presently have them hooked up to the 4 Ohm tap on my amps using a factory AI-1. Have not done the baked potatoe tweak yet, too soon. I'm trying to get a feel for them. Placed 10 inches off the wall and two feet from the side walls. I could get closer and still may if I move the rack. I'm not certain how much impact having gear between the pair will have. I also have the JL subs disabled to give them a fair shake.

Gordon, just do the baked potato tweak and don't mess around with the AI-1 stock, it makes and incredible difference. As far as the rack being between the speakers I wouldn't worry about that unless the rack is a full wall unit and protrudes past the speaker baffles. I have 1.2 TL set about two to three inches behind my rack but it is an open rack and only goes about halfway up the speakers and there are no problems at all with imaging and soundstage.

One thing, optimum placement of SDAs is three feet from the side walls so if you can get them farther than two feet the better.

Hawkeye wrote: »

I've listened to several CD's today and my initial impressions are very good. During the day, they sound a bit constricted as do my Martin Logans. However at night, during low level listening there has to be at least a 50% improvement which I found the same thing happening with the ML's.

The low bass has enough slam and accuracy but seems a bit bloaty depending on the cd. I'd like more clarity in the mid bass, which is definately veiled. The highs are showing some sibilance which I have not experienced before. T's and S's are too far pronounced for my taste.

I had the bloated and sometimes thin bass when I had mine placed about a foot and a half from the back wall. I inch by inch moved them towards the wall and found the spot! The bass snapped into focus at 8" from the back wall. Try moving them back like that until the bloat goes away. Plus you need to spike those bad boys. That will definitely tighten up the bass.

Sibilance can be a tough one but I believe it is the age of the SL2000 and the variance of the crossover components. Once you update/upgrade your xovers and install RD0194s I think you will find the sibiliance will settle down.

I believe your problem with the rig sounding better at night than during the day is the power is very dirty and noisy during the day because everyone and their grandmother are running the air conditioners, kitchen appliance motors, etc.

Dynamat your MW & PR baskets as well as Mortite will give you the clarity in the midbass.

Hawkeye wrote: »

The width and depth are still debatable. I probably don't have my postioning correct yet but I was expecting more of both at this point.

You might be thinking, with all those less than stellar points, how can I say my initial impression is very good. Frankly, to me, it is the tone and dynamics that make me want to experiment further.

I welcome all comments and recommendations to this thread. I'm frankly pretty excited about the potential these speakers have.

Gordon

Proper positioning and tweaks mentioned above with take care of the width and depth of the sound stage. Just remember that tweaks are cumulative and you will notice an improvement as you go along with your tweaking.

One more thing. Make sure the speakers are perfectly level, side-to-side, rear-to-front. This will set the soundstage perfectly at your listening position. If you have one speaker unlevel pointing slightly upwards and the other is level or slightly downwards you sound stage will sound twisted.

Good luck and have fun.
Joe

EDIT; oh boy, I did it again, I just noticed the rest of the posts in this thread. :rolleyes: Sorry if there is any redunancy.

george daniel · July 2010

F1nut wrote: »

You can change the tweeters without doing a thing to the crossovers, but I highly recommend doing the crossovers.

Sonicaps and Mills,, accept no substitute-:)-congrats on your speakers.

Vette C6.r · July 2010

george daniel wrote: »

Sonicaps and Mills,, accept no substitute-:)-congrats on your speakers.

+1. If you get the tweets give them some time to break in.

Congrats Gord.

Hawkeye · July 2010

I have a pile of stuff sitting here. Rings from Larry, Mortite, JBWeld, Dynamat and the pieces to build a Dreadnaught. I'm just guessing, but I think the Mortite would still be of benefit in addition to the rings.

The bass these things are hitting makes me wonder if a dab of mortite on the rings centered between the nuts would eliminate the possiblity of metal to case slap? Perhaps just overthinking here.

Gordon

leroyjr1 · July 2010

Lasareath wrote: »

Does Gordon need mortite anymore if he buys a set of rings from Larry?

Yes, you'll still need the seal the speakers. The rings help hold down the speakers to the cabinets.

Polkersince85 · July 2010

The rings are simply a method to maintain the proper torque value on the driver screws. The original wood screw method worked good when new but after several cycles of assembly/disassembly, they need some help. The standard method of sealing with mortite on the driver side is required. I would not recommend using mortite on the ring side.

I own a pair of SRS 2 like yours. Upgrade them as noted and they will give their big brothers a run for the money. These are sleepers. Trust me.

F1nut · July 2010

I strongly disagree that Mortite is needed or even desirable, especially when using the rings.

hearingimpared · July 2010

F1nut wrote: »

I strongly disagree that Mortite is needed or even desirable, especially when using the rings.

I tend to agree. Mortite is made for house hold use. As I've stated in the past I use Parts Express speaker sealer. It is easy to use, black, cheap, easily applied, easily removable and works great. As a matter of fact it is so good that I had a two foot split in the seam at the lower right corner of one of my 1.2 TLs, I simply pulled at the seam and squashed in a good amount of the PE speaker sealer in the split, put heavy pressure on the side of the cabinet and the seam is now sealed tight.

When I went to Dynamat my MWs & PRs, I took a thin screw driver, pried the edge of the driver/PR and was able to gently pull them out. The other plus is the PE speaker sealer just peels off the metal, from what I understand, you need a knife to scrap off the Mortite which is a PITA and time consuming.

I know Mortite is popular here and Darqueknight did a great job of finding it and describing it's usage but I've stuck (no pun intended) with the PE speaker sealer and haven't looked back.

One added thought, I've very leary about using products that were not meant to be used for audio gear. For example; for a couple of years now I've had members here try to get me to use the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser for stylus cleaning. . . I won't use it. . . it spooks me.

mdaudioguy · July 2010

Hawkeye wrote: »

I have a pile of stuff sitting here. Rings from Larry, Mortite, JBWeld, Dynamat and the pieces to build a Dreadnaught. I'm just guessing, but I think the Mortite would still be of benefit in addition to the rings.

The bass these things are hitting makes me wonder if a dab of mortite on the rings centered between the nuts would eliminate the possiblity of metal to case slap? Perhaps just overthinking here.

Gordon

Dang, Gordon, this sounds like fun times ahead! I love having all the parts to a project and then embarking on the process of putting it all together. I love the fact that your initial impressions are good... they can only go up from there! Looking forward to hear how this goes. Enjoy!

PS - Overthinking? Are you kidding me? That's the fun in it! My guess is that some of these folks who came up with some of these tweaks/upgrades/improvements might have been thinking a little hard about things too.

Your statement reminds me of a while back when a member stated that this is just a hobby, you shouldn't be overthinking it... My response was that if you're not overthinking it, is it really your hobby?

Hawkeye · July 2010

F1nut wrote: »

I strongly disagree that Mortite is needed or even desirable, especially when using the rings.

OK Jesse, are you saying you do not think Mortite is not needed in either case? If not Mortite, what, if anything do you use between the drivers and casework?

I see Joe is using a speaker specific sealer. I don't have any idea which is preferable but the Mortite seems to be written in stone.

Gordon

hearingimpared · July 2010

Hawkeye wrote: »

OK Jesse, are you saying you do not think Mortite is not needed in either case? If not Mortite, what, if anything do you use between the drivers and casework?

I see Joe is using a speaker specific sealer. I don't have any idea which is preferable but the Mortite seems to be written in stone.

Gordon

Gordon, I get the same benefits of the Mortite. Plus it is made for speakers not windows or gutters. I'll not repeat why as I have done so above.:)

I'm not going to answer for Jesse but we discussed this last night on the phone and he told me he removed all the Mortite and used the orginal gaskets and he heard no difference. He had experimented with it while installing the rings in his CRS+. His exact words after removing the Mortite, "I'm not putting that "expetive" in my 2.3TLs, I don't see the need, plus it is a PITA to work with and remove if necessary!"

I'm sure he'll chime in.

Hawkeye · July 2010

I've spent a good part of the day just listening to music and trying to wrap my head around these speakers. No upgrades done to this point.

Just finished listening to The Yes Album. Starship Trooper revealed some bass riffs I've NEVER heard before. I'm not certain if this the SDA "effect" or something else. My JL subs never produced these riffs or the growl very evident in the SRS2. My gut feeling is these speakers would not require a sub for most use. HT, probably so, but not 2 channel. I haven't turned the subs on to see if any additional support is needed or desired.

My wife did make the comment that the SRS2 did not seem as rich in the mids as the Spires which I tend to agree. I'm trying very hard to discount and eliminate the SRS before I spend a ton of money on them but I'm not being very successful.

To those reading this considering buying any speaker, get them in the house, in your system and give your choice a chance. At first cut, I didn't think these were worth the time and effort. I do believe I was wrong.

Gordon

F1nut · July 2010

Hawkeye wrote: »

OK Jesse, are you saying you do not think Mortite is not needed in either case? If not Mortite, what, if anything do you use between the drivers and casework?

I see Joe is using a speaker specific sealer. I don't have any idea which is preferable but the Mortite seems to be written in stone.

Gordon

That's what I'm saying. The original gaskets, if in good condition, are more than adequate and even more so with the rings installed.

Let me explain further. I measured the thickness of the original gaskets at 1/64". I took a single strand of Mortite laid out on some wax paper so that it wouldn't stick to the work table surface. I then took one of my veneer rollers, wet it with tap water and attempted to roll it out flat. That didn't work very well as the Mortite kept sticking to the roller. I then took two strands of Mortite side by side and rolled it out using the same procedure. For some reason rolling out two strands together worked pretty well. This resulted in a flat strip of Mortite that was about the same width of the basket lip. I measured the Mortite before installing the drivers at 1/32" or double that of the compressed original gasket. After installing and torquing down the screws provided with the rings, I removed one driver, noting that the Mortite had compressed further. I measured the compressed Mortite at 1/64", the same as the original compressed gasket.

After removing the Mortite and reinstalling the original gaskets I noticed a bit more kick to the bass response. I believe that is because the drivers are actually coupled to the cabinet better using the original gaskets with the rings. YMMV.

hearingimpared · July 2010

The whole point of using Mortite as I understand it is two fold; 1.) seal the driver to the cabinet so that there are not air leaks, from what I've read, Mortite does a good job of this. 2.) couple the driver to the cabinet tightly. This is where I think that Mortite fails. If there is any thickness left to the Mortite once the driver is screwed down tightly then the coupling is no longer there.

That being said and from what Jesse explained and our discussion over the phone, the original gaskets, if in good condition, are just fine. I've found that the PE speaker seal DOES NOT leave this thickness between the driver and cabinet. When the driver is screwed down tightly, the PE speaker sealer is so flat and covers the entire perimeter of the driver that there are no air leaks and it is firmly coupled to the cabinet.

Now with Larry's rings it is my understanding that you can tighten the screws down much, much tighter than if just driven into the socket provided for the driver. The PRs screw directly into the wood. So I would think with the rings it wouldn't be necessary to use anything for coupling however the original gasket or the PE speaker sealer would provide the sealing so there are not air leaks.

When I get my rings and installed them, I will post up the results of both with and without the PE speaker sealer.

I reiterate, I don't like using products that aren't specifically made for audio gear. Mortite is for sealing windows, gutters etc on a house.

Just my humble opinion.

Bobsama · July 2010

Hawkeye wrote: »

I've spent a good part of the day just listening to music and trying to wrap my head around these speakers. No upgrades done to this point.

Just finished listening to The Yes Album. Starship Trooper revealed some bass riffs I've NEVER heard before. I'm not certain if this the SDA "effect" or something else. My JL subs never produced these riffs or the growl very evident in the SRS2. My gut feeling is these speakers would not require a sub for most use. HT, probably so, but not 2 channel. I haven't turned the subs on to see if any additional support is needed or desired.

My wife did make the comment that the SRS2 did not seem as rich in the mids as the Spires which I tend to agree. I'm trying very hard to discount and eliminate the SRS before I spend a ton of money on them but I'm not being very successful.

To those reading this considering buying any speaker, get them in the house, in your system and give your choice a chance. At first cut, I didn't think these were worth the time and effort. I do believe I was wrong.

Gordon

I've listened to SRS-1.2TL's for a good number of hours, as well as my own pair of SDA-1's. If you can stand loud and want fantastic musical bass, I've not heard better than SRS's. You will want a big subwoofer for movies, but if you EQ the bass a bit you can escape the need. Even so, bass response increases with power usage; a McIntosh MC162 has a good amount of power, but there are niggling bass details that are very tough to hear clearly unless you put forth >100W and hope the neighbors aren't home. The bass response isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good all things considered. It's true of both speakers (my SDA-1's and the 1.2TL's); they love power.

That said, take a few more album and listen with a bit more power than you're used to.

My recent listens/suggestions:

Aimee Mann's "I'm With Stupid"
April Wine's "The Nature of the Beast"
The Church's "Gold Afternoon Fix"
Cowboy Junkies' "The Trinity Sessions"
Dire Strait's "Communiqu

hearingimpared · July 2010

I have 1.2TLs on my 2 ch rig and I don't need no stinkin' sub.:D If placed properly, I can't see the need for SRS IIs needing a sub either.

heiney9 · July 2010

I absolutely DON'T need a sub with my modded 1C's. Gordon you have no idea how much improvement you will see with the RD0 tweeters and Sonicap/Mills x-over upgrades and the better performing Dreadnaught. It won't even sound like the same speaker. Everything you are hearing plus more will improve by 300%

Also to add: Mortite has done wonders to the tactile portion of bass on my 5B's. It's very noticeable and the improvement is all positive. I will be doing my 1C's despite some here saying it doesn't improve but actually can hinder performance.

Just my .02c

H9

Bobsama · July 2010

My SDA-1's, with a bit of EQ, don't need ANY help in movies; I'd have to spend twice what they're worth for a subwoofer that'd outperform them and it's not like I'd often use that subwoofer (as I rarely watch movies).

Hawkeye · July 2010

I'm hoping I didn't start something between the pro & con Mortite folks:D I thought I'd read somewhere that Polk used Mortite "in the beginning" before they could afford to die-cut gaskets. Not sure which way I will go just yet.

I believe the power I have available from the 501 mono's should be sufficient. They have a published 500 @ 8 Ohms and 1000 @ 4 Ohms with at least 90 amps. I may try the 8 tap within the next couple days. There was a definite difference between the two when testing on my Spires.

Speaking of the amps and Spires, it came to me this morning about the new bass riffs I heard. The Spire has an internal ICE amp controlling the 10' woofer. Perhaps it is not as accurate as it needs to be. I say this because the 501 amps are directly driving the drivers in the SRS2 without an additional amp in the path. So in a nut shell, the 501 is controlling the drivers in the SRS2 with more accuracy then the ICE amp in the Spire.

Today I'm going wrap the factory AI-1 with the multiple layers of foil ala DK's baked potato tweak and see what happens. I'm still waiting on the box to build my Dreadnought.

Happy 4th to all.

Gordon

Hawkeye's SRS2 Experience

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