You don't need close to 200wpc
Comments
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Fair enough Fred, I know we are pretty much on the same page about this issue, generally. Perhaps my words were a little to "all" inclusive.
The Zen is a great amp, but just from what I've read the A3 was quite a bit more dynamic and A30 is more dynamic than the A3. The sound is very similar but how they perform into the same speaker really is different (from what I've read, not had my ears on a Zen). The Zen doesn't cut it compared to the commercial offerings of the A3 and A30 when driving a typical conventional speaker.
FWIW, that's only what I've gleened from various sites including diyaudio and of course that is their opinion mostly. I seemed to have read a NP post where he intimates the same thing, but I'm sure it would take me days to find it, if at all.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
All I can say except for a few occasions at other people's house's haven't I really stretched the legs of the Aleph much beyond my typical louder listening sessions. Friday I was determined to find the limits using that very dynamic recording. I would never listen that loudly for a long period of time because it's just too loud. To me that tells me I have more than enough amp for my needs and I'm far below the 200wpc mantra.
I wish I had my brothers spl meter to give an idea of what I consider loud. The best thing I heard was it never lost composure at high volume levels, a lot of other amps even before they reach the onset of clipping really start to collapse around the edges of the soundstage. I was just very, very surprised that I kept pushing the vol farther and farther and I couldn't discern any issues except when I finally hit a point where the bass started to slightly loose control. I figured that was the point where I was just starting to hit the wall..........soundstage and top end were unchanged.............and it was LOUD.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Did you guys buy up all the Aleph 30's on the 'gon? Couple days ago there were two, now both sold. Bummer, I was seriously considering an experiment with the SDA 2/2B.
Anyhow, a couple of serious questions for H9 (or any other Aleph/low watt owners who want to comment.)
You've said that "simple is better," but after reading some of those articles I'm not getting how the design of the Aleph amps is simpler than others. I'm still on the long flat part of the learning curve, so not much of it is simple to me. I'm not looking for a technical dissertation (unless you're in the mood to do that). I was just hoping to get a pointer toward what I should be looking for in the design articles that speaks to the differences versus high watt power amps that make for a simpler design.
My second question (also might be a dumb one) is whether you find amps in this lower power category to be any more or less revealing of weaknesses in the pre-amp / source part of the audio chain? Bottom line, if I were to explore the world of low power do I need to invest more in a high-end pre-amp. Or, does the power of the amp not make a difference in that equation? -
Did you read the owners manual?
2 gain stages vs. 5-7 or more for most amps, minimum of parts in the signal path, little negative feedback, just to scratch the surface of your question. If you are serious about tracking down an Aleph 30 then read the owners manual. Nelson explains things in a down to earth way I never would ever be able to do.
Aleph's typically don't last long, but these days with the economy they seem to stick around longer than a year or so ago. Not a lot were produced compared to other more main stream products so the supply is limited. I'd be surprised if there were more than 500 or so produced, so that means you typically see less of them.
You 2nd question is a resounding YES when it comes to the Aleph, don't forget your source either. You need to move up the food chain in all positions to realize the full potential of each piece.
Read this for your 1st question
http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/old%20product%20manuals/a30manr0.pdf
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Yeah Brock it was that "most" word that jumped out at me.. Perhaps my words were a little to "all" inclusive.
Due to it's ultra simplicity the Zen certainly needs alot more care in regards to the load it will see.But given a suitable match it does have much of the same SE Class A flavour .The Zen doesn't cut it compared to the commercial offerings of the A3 and A30 when driving a typical conventional speaker. -
I did read that... some of it confused me, like this statement: "Simplicity and a minimum number of components is a key element, and is well reflected in the quality of tube designs. The fewer pieces in series with the signal path, the better. This often true even if adding just one more gain stage will improve the measured specs."
I guess he's saying fewer parts sounds better even if adding parts improves the lab measurements? I can see how that could be true given the assertions that the measurements might be measuring things that are irrelevant and that what is relevant could depend largely on the speaker being driven.
I was reading about the Futterman OTLs and Futterman's assertion that speaker manufacturers should make amps that sound good with their speakers rather than trusting everything to be generic enough that components in the audio chain can be swapped out at will. There's some merit to that. Maybe Bose has it right after all. :biggrin:
I actually was seriously considering the Aleph (I guess still am if I see one available again). My three main concerns were 1) power, which I'm confident on the 2B's would be a complete non-issue, 2) heat, which in the summer might mean I don't use that amp (no a/c... I know, amazing, what century do we live in, f_ing Seattle), and 3) I don't want to spend $1,500 on a pre-amp right now. But I do have a Benchmark DAC with XLR outputs that I could run directly into the amp. I've done that with the B&K and it sounds pretty nice.
Thanks for the info... definitely a great thread! -
I'm a firm believer that the least amount of parts wins.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
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Decware "Zen" SE-84 family wins in that regard.
Output power is really low, though (EL84 single-ended pseudo-triode; probaby about 1.5 wpc - Deckert says 2.3 wpc for the "C" rev).
http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84C.htm
I have an SE-84B in the attic...
"12 solder points between input jack and output"
http://www.decware.com/zenfly3.pdf
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mhardy6647 wrote: »That five-fold delta in "rated power" is only a difference of 7 dB.
7dB increase is quite enough to power even speakers with 85dB/w/m sensitivity. :biggrin:
I don't think Brock want to try the A30 with that kinda speakers.
The Zen is a great amp, but just from what I've read the A3 was quite a bit more dynamic and A30 is more dynamic than the A3. The sound is very similar but how they perform into the same speaker really is different (from what I've read, not had my ears on a Zen). The Zen doesn't cut it compared to the commercial offerings of the A3 and A30 when driving a typical conventional speaker.
H9
I think the A30 and A3 has more output transistors than the Zen even if all things equal. And there are variations of Zen with more output transistors that mimic Aleph 60.
I have not heard Aleph30 but IMO, I think Mr. Pass DIY Aleph Zen would be very similarly voiced if all the transistors used are the same.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
mhardy6647 wrote: »Decware "Zen" SE-84 family wins in that regard.
Output power is really low, though (EL84 single-ended pseudo-triode; probaby about 1.5 wpc).
I have an SE-84B in the attic...
I think this is a different kind of Zen? No Tubes in this one.
Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Yes, Nelson Pass's "Zen" family is soiled.... errm... solid state. I was responding to the previous post (irrespective of amplifier topology):I'm a firm believer that the least amount of parts wins.
madmax
In the context of this thread, it is a coincidence that Steve Deckert named his first amp product "Zen". Never heard of any static between Pass and Decware about infringement (FWIW).
Here's the schematic (more or less) of the SE-84 (actually this one is a DIY clone... but the SE-84 was essentially a clone of a Zenith stereo console hifi amp of the 1960s). It is about as simple as an amplifier with a voltage amp (the 6N1P/6922) can be.
http://sarris.info/main/set-el84-tube-amp-diy-project -
Whoa easy now Mr(He He), I won't mention I suspect that output tranny has a strong bearing(ie.soiling effect) on the performance of that vacuum state Zen.mhardy6647 wrote: »Yes, Nelson Pass's "Zen" family is soiled.... errm... solid state.
As for the SS Zen it basically has two resistors ,two capacitors and a single Mosfet in the signal path. -
On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »My second question (also might be a dumb one) is whether you find amps in this lower power category to be any more or less revealing of weaknesses in the pre-amp / source part of the audio chain? Bottom line, if I were to explore the world of low power do I need to invest more in a high-end pre-amp. Or, does the power of the amp not make a difference in that equation?
I am not trying to answer these Question for H9 but I wanted to help redefining the low power amp requirements. So before I answer your question, I just wanted to revisit some facts about the Low Power High Quality Amps.
If you are into Low Power High Quality Amps (since all low power amps do not mean high quality), you need to check your speakers how efficient / sensitive they are and what is the nominal impedance. If they are anywhere under 90dB/w/m or nominal impedance is less than 6 ohms, you need to think how loud you listen to music and what kind of room you are using the speakers in.
If your listening habit dictates cranking the volume control more often than so, you want to consider the minimum power you'll use from your amplifiers. Then, look for the low power high quality power amp that exceeds your calculations of minimum power requirement.
Most Class A amps are low power coz Class A tends to overheat and it is more costly for the manufacture to produce. And Not everyone thinks Class A amps are better than Class AB amps. Regardless, I still think that Class A amps are said to have better transparency and tonal accuracy than most other class amps.
Now, back to your question. Regardless of power or Class, a well designed amp will reveals the weakness or your chain such as preamp or the source or the speakers. It's also a common agreement that Synergy is important among components and everything matters in your chain.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Not only simplicity, one need to use good quality parts for something to sound really good.
And design ideas fit everything together.
Thus, I want to call it Low Power High Quality Amp and not just low power.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
If you are into Low Power High Quality Amps (since all low power amps do not mean high quality), you need to check your speakers how efficient / sensitive they are and what is the nominal impedance. If they are anywhere under 90dB/w/m or nominal impedance is less than 6 ohms, you need to think how loud you listen to music and what kind of room you are using the speakers in.
If your listening habit dictates cranking the volume control more often than so, you want to consider the minimum power you'll use from your amplifiers. Then, look for the low power high quality power amp that exceeds your calculations of minimum power requirement.
Most Class A amps are low power coz Class A tends to overheat and it is more costly for the manufacture to produce. And Not everyone thinks Class A amps are better than Class AB amps. Regardless, I still think that Class A amps are said to have better transparency and tonal accuracy than most other class amps.
Now, back to your question. Regardless of power or Class, a well designed amp will reveals the weakness or your chain such as preamp or the source or the speakers. It's also a common agreement that Synergy is important among components and everything matters in your chain.
Hi. You seem to understand all this better than I do. My speakers are 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m) and 8Ω (minimum 3.5Ω). I am all about synergy and making this process of upgrading as simple as possible. I chose the Classe CA-400 monos and love how they fit right in. I will be receiving another pair of B&W 802d any day now and two more CA-400 to power those. This will almost complete my HT setup (doubles for 2 channel duty as well).
I want to build a dedicated 2 channel system in the near future. What would your suggestion(s) be to me on where to start for lower power amps that will power these hungry beasts. I want to stay under $40,000.00 for the whole system. The speakers are a no brainer for me but the rest is up in the air. I have been looking and testing cd players and have not found one that has the "magical" sound yet. I am not near as experienced as most of you here, so I am all ears on any suggestions or tips. -
Hi. You seem to understand all this better than I do. My speakers are 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m) and 8Ω (minimum 3.5Ω). I am all about synergy and making this process of upgrading as simple as possible. I chose the Classe CA-400 monos and love how they fit right in. I will be receiving another pair of B&W 802d any day now and two more CA-400 to power those. This will almost complete my HT setup (doubles for 2 channel duty as well).
I want to build a dedicated 2 channel system in the near future. What would your suggestion(s) be to me on where to start for lower power amps that will power these hungry beasts. I want to stay under $40,000.00 for the whole system. The speakers are a no brainer for me but the rest is up in the air. I have been looking and testing cd players and have not found one that has the "magical" sound yet. I am not near as experienced as most of you here, so I am all ears on any suggestions or tips.
If you have 40K, I guess anything could fit your bill. You don't need to go Low Power Class A. There are High Power Class A amps. May be a pair of Pass XA160 or XA200 to start since it's well within your budget.
I have listened to a lot of Class A amp and now my fave is 60wpc pure Class A amps.
Define Magical? This word is highly subjective just like everything else. You really need to listen to most gear and decide what's magical to you.
Everyone's taste is different. For me, I prefer more natural and less color sound.
I know someone who used a pair of B&W 802D with 125wpc Class AB amp. He said it's plenty loud for his room. So, I guess something with 100WPC could be your first move. There are better amps than Classe and I meant it in a humble way.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
As for the SS Zen it basically has two resistors ,two capacitors and a single Mosfet in the signal path.
That's pretty simple... line level input (no driver), and the MOSFET's connected to the speaker? -
mhardy6647 wrote: »That's pretty simple... line level input (no driver), and the MOSFET's connected to the speaker?
If you meant to ask it's used as the output transistor, then Yes!
ZEN is pretty simple and sounds pretty good and running pretty HOT too. :biggrin:Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
If you have 40K, I guess anything could fit your bill. You don't need to go Low Power Class A. There are High Power Class A amps. May be a pair of Pass XA160 or XA200 to start since it's well withing your budget.
I have listened to a lot of Class A amp and now my fave is 60wpc pure Class A amps.
Define Magical? This word is highly subjective just like everything else. You really need to listen to most gear and decide what's magical to you.
Everyone's taste is different. For me, I prefer more natural and less color sound.
Well the amps I have now goto 80w in Class A before switching to Class B. I am more than willing to change brands for sure. Magical to me is like the perfect bed in the three bears. Not to hard and not to soft. Something that has great synergy together. I also prefer natural/neutral sound which is why I like the 802d and Classe combo. I guess for a cd player I would need one that is a little more 'in your face' so my system is not blah. I tried the McIntosh amp route with a cd player of theirs and while it sounded ok it was to blah for me. I want a little more detail that that combo was able to offer. -
Well the amps I have now goto 80w in Class A before switching to Class B. I am more than willing to change brands for sure. Magical to me is like the perfect bed in the three bears. Not to hard and not to soft. Something that has great synergy together. I also prefer natural/neutral sound which is why I like the 802d and Classe combo. I guess for a cd player I would need one that is a little more 'in your face' so my system is not blah. I tried the McIntosh amp route with a cd player of theirs and while it sounded ok it was to blah for me. I want a little more detail that that combo was able to offer.
I am sorry I never asked before but what preamp are you using now? In all fairness, I have not listened to the newer MAC amps and sources so I can't comment on the MAC gear.
But Hawkeye and FACE could help with the McIntosh gears. I suggest you start a new thread and we are all keen to help you spend. :biggrin:
If you want resolution and details at any level, look into the newer Accuphase Gears while maintaining neutral sound. It's not everyone cups of tea but it's not a bad start for a brand change either.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I did like the sound of the Pass Labs gear but the Classe was a little lower in price so I chose that. For my two channel rig I will entertain Pass Labs and others. I like any type of music really and I do not always listen at sane volumes. If a song comes on that I want to jam, I want the power to be able to crank the hell out of it without fear of the sound going to crap.
I will start a new thread now and we can go from there. -
Input cap-resistor-Mosfet-output cap,Thats pretty much it.But as can be expected it has low gain and low input impedance placing some special demands on the preamp.mhardy6647 wrote: »That's pretty simple... line level input (no driver), and the MOSFET's connected to the speaker? -
Right-O. A very "interactive" sort of amplifier... nothing wrong with that, just makes speaker matching less trivial.
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Very much so.mhardy6647 wrote: »... just makes speaker matching less trivial. -
I've read that the 802d's can sound leaner than normal when fed lower power despite being a pretty efficient speaker (Stereophile Jan. Issue). These speakers seem to been heavily documented in regards to associated equipment which may be a good place to start for suggestions. Some that I read were bridged Bel Canto evo6, Classe Omicrons, Pass Labs X250.5 or X350.5.
I also read a personal review that moved from a pass aleph (not sure which model) to a Classe CA-400 with improved results, for whatever that is worth.
(full disclosure: I have no personal experience with any of this gear. But I am really interested in the subject)design is where science and art break even. -
Well the amps I have now goto 80w in Class A before switching to Class B.
I doubt that very much based on the heatsinks and chassis size. If you have a reliable spec for that I'd like to see it. Plus if the CA400 uses bi-polar transistors for the output like the CA200 does, they wouldn't behave well with that much bias running through them.
Don't get me wrong those are impressive amps, but I like to dismantle mis-information right away.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
heatsink and chasis size seems a curious thing to base your heavy skepticism. Anyways here it is from the horse's mouth (Robert Adam of Classe Technical Support): "the CA-300 and CA-400 have adaptive biasing... Bias is kept low at idle to reduce heat, and increases under the load as output increases. Both models run class A up to 20% of rated power before running in class B. That means 60W and 80W respectively."design is where science and art break even.
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I also know a lot about amps. They usually have an input connection, two if they are stereo amps. Then inside this input signal goes through a lot of stuff , and then there's the output connections. Pretty simple. Oh, and they have a power cord for power and an on/off switch.
Edit: And my amp is not 200 WPC. It's 250 WPC. Not sure what that means, just throwing it out there._________________________________________________
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SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
Really Brock,I assume your reference is an NP article that you will gladly link for us.There have been a number of fine true Class A amplifiers that utilized them.Think early Krells,and Classic ML2's etc.Plus if the CA400 uses bi-polar transistors for the output like the CA200 does, they wouldn't behave well with that much bias running through them.... but I like to dismantle mis-information right away.
H9
Thus a variation on the sliding or dynamic bias scheme."the CA-300 and CA-400 have adaptive biasing... Bias is kept low at idle to reduce heat, and increases under the load as output increases. Both models run class A up to 20% of rated power before running in class B. That means 60W and 80W respectively." -
I also know a lot about amps. They usually have an input connection, two if they are stereo amps. Then inside this input signal goes through a lot of stuff , and then there's the output connections. Pretty simple. Oh, and they have a power cord for power and an on/off switch.
Edit: And my amp is not 200 WPC. It's 250 WPC. Not sure what that means, just throwing it out there.
Ricardo, don't forget the VU meters on the front with some kind of tube in it. I think it's called lambs? :biggrin:Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
