Bi Amping with a AVR
Comments
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My D*(K is bigger than yours , now WHAT!! Is this where we are at? Why don't both of you just call my equipment junk trash and be done with it. Beat your chest and tell everyone on the forum how superior both of you are with your awesome weight power supplies. While you guys are running around here with measuring sticks, I'll be enjoying my junk trash **** equipment, completey wrong and inferior Bi amped crap British speakers.
Glad we all can get along.
You are the one that brought up weight in an earlier post. -
My D*(K is bigger than yours , now WHAT!! Is this where we are at? Why don't both of you just call my equipment junk trash and be done with it. Beat your chest and tell everyone on the forum how superior both of you are with your awesome weight power supplies. While you guys are running around here with measuring sticks, I'll be enjoying my junk trash **** equipment, completey wrong and inferior Bi amped crap British speakers.
Glad we all can get along.
You are the one that brought up weight in an earlier post.
Cool nice twist there man, need a shovel?Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
My D*(K is bigger than yours , now WHAT!! Is this where we are at? Why don't both of you just call my equipment junk trash and be done with it. Beat your chest and tell everyone on the forum how superior both of you are with your awesome weight power supplies. While you guys are running around here with measuring sticks, I'll be enjoying my junk trash **** equipment, completey wrong and inferior Bi amped crap British speakers.
Glad we all can get along.
You are the one that brought up weight in an earlier post.
Cool nice twist there man, need a shovel?
The AVR weighs in at a hefty 49.6 LBS. -
Bottom line once again. IT IS NOT BI-AMPING!!!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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Forgive me for my potential ignorance on this subject. I always thought bi-amping meant running separate amps/separate power supplies. With active crossovers. And I am not sure how the Integra in question works that out. But it this setup more akin to bi-wiring than bi-amping?--Gary--
Onkyo Integra M504, Bottlehead Foreplay III, Denon SACD, Thiel CS2.3, NHT VT-2, VT-3 and Evolution T6, Infinity RSIIIa, SDA1C and a few dozen other speakers around the house I change in and out. -
Forgive me for my potential ignorance on this subject. I always thought bi-amping meant running separate amps/separate power supplies. With active crossovers. And I am not sure how the Integra in question works that out. But it this setup more akin to bi-wiring than bi-amping?
This is what I always thought too, two amps for each speaker, two for upper, two for lower. Or two amps that are true dual chassis.
But if you just have one great amp or two great mono amps, with high current, that gives you great headroom, why bother?
That has always seemed to be the consensus around the audio world..
I don’t see how what you’re doing is bi-amping..
It’s been a very long time that we have seemed to talk about this subject, and to be honest Dan, with your background in audio, and knowledge you have shared throughout the years, I find it odd that this subject is started coming from you..
Not throwing any shade or bone in the fight here, just find it odd is all..
I honestly have never dug deep into what it takes to truly bi-amp, only shared what I always thought it meant to truly do it..
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Easy, Integra says if you want to bi amp your speakers, our AVR can do it. This is how you do it. These are not my words, these are Intera / Onkyo. I pretty well respected brand in our industry.Forgive me for my potential ignorance on this subject. I always thought bi-amping meant running separate amps/separate power supplies. With active crossovers. And I am not sure how the Integra in question works that out. But it this setup more akin to bi-wiring than bi-amping?
This is what I always thought too, two amps for each speaker, two for upper, two for lower. Or two amps that are true dual chassis.
But if you just have one great amp or two great mono amps, with high current, that gives you great headroom, why bother?
That has always seemed to be the consensus around the audio world..
I don’t see how what you’re doing is bi-amping..
It’s been a very long time that we have seemed to talk about this subject, and to be honest Dan, with your background in audio, and knowledge you have shared throughout the years, I find it odd that this subject is started coming from you..
Not throwing any shade or bone in the fight here, just find it odd is all..
I honestly have never dug deep into what it takes to truly bi-amp, only shared what I always thought it meant to truly do it..
I never saw the need to do this ever to justify your point, when you have plenty of power to get the job done, there is no point right? I feel the same way. I just was fooling around and wanted to try this out. No one actually reads my words just jumps on Oh this isn't bi amping, your not doing it right, my power supply weighs more than your entire AVR and all that other stupid crap.
Yes I have been in this business for decades, doesn't mean I can't try this out or anyone else for that matter, it's called a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Some of the people on this forum doesn't make it fun, it actually makes me want to ignore them as it's like they have nothing better to do than to pick on anything you do that they don't agree with. So be it.
Technically speaking it states NONWHERE that you need separate power supples different chassis, you need a speaker with 2 sets of binding posts, 2 outputs from 2 amp channels and your bi amping. There is multiple ways to bi amp, not just external crossovers, 4 differnet amps. Yes that is the best way to do it but it't not the only way.
Challenge that call one of the most respected amp companies in the world Bryston. They state that you can bi amp with one of their multi channel amps and they will even help you select that amp based off your speakers and needs. So to sit here and say there is only 1 way is complete false.
Guess what? Sonically and dynamically I made a small gain, I don't see anyone else who has done it talk about it.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
People are passionate about this hobby, and that's what makes it cool.
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This seems like it would only be of benefit if the amplifier modules were the bottleneck, but it's usually the power supply in AVR'S that are the bottleneck.
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This seems like it would only be of benefit if the amplifier modules were the bottleneck, but it's usually the power supply in AVR'S that are the bottleneck.
That really depends if you are using all 7-11 channels. If you are only using 2 or 3 channels, the power supply usually has more power available than each channel can handle due to limitations of the output transistors. As mentioned earlier, AVRs usually only have 1 or 2 matched pairs of output transistors, which can be a bottleneck at somewhere between 100 and 175 watts per channel depending on the parts used. -
Not to go too far off track but...
My first real stereo was in 1978. Purchased a Sansui G-9000 receiver, pair of Bose 901 III and a Technics SL-1200 MK2 TT.
Dang I miss that receiver. -
skipshot12 wrote: »Not to go too far off track but...
My first real stereo was in 1978. Purchased a Sansui G-9000 receiver, pair of Bose 901 III and a Technics SL-1200 MK2 TT.
Dang I miss that receiver.
I bet. The G-9000 was a beauty that could also perform. That TT is still a benchmark as well. I wish I had never sold my 1200Mk2. The G-9000 didn't have many "compromises." -
Easy, Integra says if you want to bi amp your speakers, our AVR can do it. This is how you do it. These are not my words, these are Intera / Onkyo. I pretty well respected brand in our industry.Forgive me for my potential ignorance on this subject. I always thought bi-amping meant running separate amps/separate power supplies. With active crossovers. And I am not sure how the Integra in question works that out. But it this setup more akin to bi-wiring than bi-amping?
This is what I always thought too, two amps for each speaker, two for upper, two for lower. Or two amps that are true dual chassis.
But if you just have one great amp or two great mono amps, with high current, that gives you great headroom, why bother?
That has always seemed to be the consensus around the audio world..
I don’t see how what you’re doing is bi-amping..
It’s been a very long time that we have seemed to talk about this subject, and to be honest Dan, with your background in audio, and knowledge you have shared throughout the years, I find it odd that this subject is started coming from you..
Not throwing any shade or bone in the fight here, just find it odd is all..
I honestly have never dug deep into what it takes to truly bi-amp, only shared what I always thought it meant to truly do it..
I never saw the need to do this ever to justify your point, when you have plenty of power to get the job done, there is no point right? I feel the same way. I just was fooling around and wanted to try this out. No one actually reads my words just jumps on Oh this isn't bi amping, your not doing it right, my power supply weighs more than your entire AVR and all that other stupid crap.
Yes I have been in this business for decades, doesn't mean I can't try this out or anyone else for that matter, it's called a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Some of the people on this forum doesn't make it fun, it actually makes me want to ignore them as it's like they have nothing better to do than to pick on anything you do that they don't agree with. So be it.
Technically speaking it states NONWHERE that you need separate power supples different chassis, you need a speaker with 2 sets of binding posts, 2 outputs from 2 amp channels and your bi amping. There is multiple ways to bi amp, not just external crossovers, 4 differnet amps. Yes that is the best way to do it but it't not the only way.
Challenge that call one of the most respected amp companies in the world Bryston. They state that you can bi amp with one of their multi channel amps and they will even help you select that amp based off your speakers and needs. So to sit here and say there is only 1 way is complete false.
Guess what? Sonically and dynamically I made a small gain, I don't see anyone else who has done it talk about it.
You've lost all credibility.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You started with a G-9000?!?skipshot12 wrote: »Not to go too far off track but...
My first real stereo was in 1978. Purchased a Sansui G-9000 receiver, pair of Bose 901 III and a Technics SL-1200 MK2 TT.
Dang I miss that receiver.
(rando internet image)
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When I first saw the title of this thread I thought, oh no, this is going to be a barn burner and popcorn stuffer.
I'm glad to see that for the majority of it, it remained somewhat civil.
Yes, this is nothing new, AVR manufacturers have been advertising "Bi-amp ability" for years. And though this (Mantis's effort) doesn't fit into the "norm" of bi-amping, it is in a sense, bi-amping, just not bi-power. Manits is using multiple amps from a single power source.
Here's what I see....IF you were to take two cables using a 2x2 format from two amps, according to the power specs, you're going to send 150w to each speaker.
IF you were to use four amps using four 2x2 cables, are you yielding the same power distribution? Most likely not. Are you going to hear a difference? Maybe not what you may have hoped for.
To bypass the jumpers, using two cables in a 2x4 configuration and using only two amps, could you "hear" a difference by sending signals through all four binding posts? Maybe....
Mantis did say this was not his wording but the wording of Integra and how bad is it to give it a go just to see?? Dude was just sharing an experience. Heck, I tried it once way back when I got my first AVR back in 2010, did I hear a difference? No, but everyone's mileage differs.
I fail to see where any credibility of this member has been lost. EVERYONE has the right to configure their own setups any way they see fit without being judged by it.Set up:
Marantz AV8802A - Sources: BRP Panasonic 9000/CDP Emotiva ERC 3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-6, XPA-2 x 2 - Speakers: Focal/PolkAudio, Mains/2ch - Kanta No2, C - LSiM706, SS - LSiM702, WS - RTiA9, RS - RTiA9, FH - RTiA3 - Subs: Epik Empires x 2
Cables: AQ McKenzie XLR's from CDP to AVP to amp for 2ch, Emotiva XLR's for the rest - Douglasconnection: Furutech Alpha 36 12g speaker wire for 2ch, Furez 10g speaker wire for the rest - AQ Forest48 HDMI for the display, AQ Carbon48 HDMI from BRP to AVP - VR3 filtered power cables for CDP, BRP and AVP, Emotiva power cables for the amps - AudioQuest 505 power conditioner.
EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman -
mhardy6647 wrote: »
You started with a G-9000?!?skipshot12 wrote: »Not to go too far off track but...
My first real stereo was in 1978. Purchased a Sansui G-9000 receiver, pair of Bose 901 III and a Technics SL-1200 MK2 TT.
Dang I miss that receiver.
(rando internet image)
Yep, that’s the one.
Could swear I paid under $400 thru the military exchange.
And, pretty sure the 901’s were right at $350.
Was drooling over the G-22000 and the G-33000 but couldn’t come close to affording either of those.
When I upgraded from the bose 901’s to Infinity Kappa 8’s I had to go with a dedicated amp & preamp. The G-9000 couldn’t push the speakers and would go into protection quickly. -
Circa 1978 in Hanau, Germany.
Not in the pic but just to the outside is our 901’s.
It’s an old photo and has clipped the outside when posting.
Can just make out my old Zerostat and Discwasher brush on the right side. -
Love the old days when the receiver makes the TV look tiny. It is clear what the priority was back then, and it wasn't TV.
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Love the old days when the receiver makes the TV look tiny. It is clear what the priority was back then, and it wasn't TV.
Giant power house receivers were much cheaper than TV's back in the day. NOW TV's are cheaper than Giant receivers. What I spent on a Zenith 19" color TV in 1986 I can buy a 65" TV today. -
^We had that 13” black & white for 2 decades.
Wasn’t until the late 90’s that we could afford a small color tv. -
skipshot12 wrote: »Circa 1978 in Hanau, Germany.
Not in the pic but just to the outside is our 901’s.
It’s an old photo and has clipped the outside when posting.
Can just make out my old Zerostat and Discwasher brush on the right side.
You must have been an officer. If you were enlisted, you would have been lucky if it was an AM radio.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
WOW this thread took a cool turn. After I lost all credibility with F1, you guys ran with some vintage stuff.skipshot12 wrote: »^We had that 13” black & white for 2 decades.
Wasn’t until the late 90’s that we could afford a small color tv.
My Grand Father had a TV repair shop in his house. He built the shop onto the back of the garage. This one of my starts in this hobby. I use to love going in there and watch him take apart TV's and get them back up and running. This was back in the 1970's. We always had the latest and greatest in TV's back then. My family also shopped at Bryn Mawr Stereo and video with the likes of Polk Audio and Yamaha receivers. It's one of the moments in time that brought me on this forum back in the 1990's when it was just getting started.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »AVRs, akin to AM-FM stereo hifi receivers before them, are a study in compromises. Lots of stuff in one box, sharing one power supply. No more and no less to say.
I have no doubt that this is a very good AVR. It serves a purpose, it fills a niche.
I'd argue that separates fill the niche for obsessive types who pursue that next upgrade instead of just enjoying the media. Receivers and all in one boxes have been the preference for the vast majority of consumers since the days of console TVs. Heck, most now prefer a soundbar to an AVR with separate speakers.
This is patently false. A set of separates (pre amp, amp, DAC, etc) has a substantially longer life than the typical AVR. Just look at how often new AVR models come out - almost yearly. Further, if my preamp fails or falls behind technically, I need only replace IT - I don’t need a new amp, DAC, etc, because they aren’t all rolled into one box.
Also, when has this hobby EVER been about what “most consumers prefer”?? Did “most consumers” prefer the SDA SRS speakers? Do “most consumers” prefer Dolby Atmos 7.4.4 setups? Do “most consumers” prefer vinyl and/or SACD? No. Most consumers prefer mp3 files through earbuds. None of us here are “most consumers”.“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn -
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mhardy6647 wrote: »AVRs, akin to AM-FM stereo hifi receivers before them, are a study in compromises. Lots of stuff in one box, sharing one power supply. No more and no less to say.
I have no doubt that this is a very good AVR. It serves a purpose, it fills a niche.
I'd argue that separates fill the niche for obsessive types who pursue that next upgrade instead of just enjoying the media. Receivers and all in one boxes have been the preference for the vast majority of consumers since the days of console TVs. Heck, most now prefer a soundbar to an AVR with separate speakers.
This is patently false. A set of separates (pre amp, amp, DAC, etc) has a substantially longer life than the typical AVR. Just look at how often new AVR models come out - almost yearly. Further, if my preamp fails or falls behind technically, I need only replace IT - I don’t need a new amp, DAC, etc, because they aren’t all rolled into one box.
Also, when has this hobby EVER been about what “most consumers prefer”?? Did “most consumers” prefer the SDA SRS speakers? Do “most consumers” prefer Dolby Atmos 7.4.4 setups? Do “most consumers” prefer vinyl and/or SACD? No. Most consumers prefer mp3 files through earbuds. None of us here are “most consumers”.
I think you need to re read that post. I took it as his opinion on his experiences with most people buy AVR's over separates. I don't see what the longer life comments comes in, or did I miss something?
Anyway I have worked in retail AV for almost 30 years and AVR's just to clarify, outsell separates by a long shot. So the comments made that vast majority of consumers preference is AVR's. In the custom world which is where I live, I design our projects. How I design them is based of the clients needs. 99% of them are AVR people. I do however have a few NAD clients that prefer separates over AVR's and their needs get attended to. My world is whole house integration, not just 2 channel , not just Theaters but what I do is Lighting , whole house Music, Surveillance , and Pro Grade whole house networking. I try on every project to get that 1 room where I can express a really nice comfortable 2 channel system my clients can sit down with a glass of wine and enjoy each other with some good music. When Theaters are involved, I like to really focus in on what they prefer to watch. It's an Art and I really enjoy doing it.
Your comments on SACD hits a soft spot. Back when SACD first came out, I was tickled pink and excited to own it. Pioneer Elite was releasing players which also included DVD audio , Sony was hot with their stand alone players which came out first and many did those formats flop big time. Back when it came out, I was with Bryn Mawr Stereo and video before we where Tweeter which came years later. We had awesome demo rooms to display SACD and DVD AUDIO. I would say a handful of clients cared and all the others could care less. multi channel stereo was where they where at, didn't want to rebuy albums they already owned to hear them in this new format. Most felt it was a waste of money especially the multi channel stuff and that all really sucked. I hated how the masses could care less.
I think this is a good conversation to have as head phones are all the rave these days unfortunately. I refuse to sit and listen that way, I'm all out.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Unfortunately Liv4fam is no longer with us. If you PM me , I can tell you what happened.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
