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Nice grinder that Lagom. Correct, currently using the D64. Saw the forks in the picture you posted and from the angle and profile I guessed it was the 64.
Back in Nov I was cleaning my Fiorenzato F4E Nano and cross-threaded the collar. Damn thing locked up and I can't get it free. Needed something ASAP, so purchased the LUCCA D64 from Clive Coffee and upgraded to the SSP Red burrs. For ~$500 it's no slouch. Thought it would be a lateral move from the Fiorenzato but it's bested it.
Hated to drop the $$$ on a temp thing but the D64 has been a place holder. Next level for me is the Zerno Z1. Was able to get in when they opened round 5 pre-orders in Dec. By all accounts, this should keep me happy for quite some time. I chose the SSP High Uniformity blind burrs and olive wood accents. Round 5 starts shipping next month. https://zerno.co/
The Bean Vault is really nice. I was super close to buying the same but I wanted a ton of vials. Cost added up way too quick for me. I cheaped out...you'll get no pretentious judgement from me. Looks like you're doing things right.➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio PMG Signature Pre, BHK Signature 250, PMG Signature 512 ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S3.3 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
I figured it was the Zerno! It’s the new hotness. Will be very interested in your impressions.
I too liked my DF64 but it was always a placeholder as well. I’m not sure the Lagom is any “better” but the fit and finish is light years ahead and the grind adjustment is much better, not to mention it’s silent compared to the DF. I have SSP MP in the P64 and am very happy2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
No where near the level of drinking and expertise but interesting tests
https://youtu.be/5D4UgPHOpbk?si=RIDERMbqcSiT9fNx -
Not one of them would survive many cleaning cycles (they are not built for that) and there was no mention of actual taste, which is the ultimate factor.
A better test than any of the tests reported would be the temperature of the water as it hits the beans. FYI - The coffee industry has defined scientific benchmarks for perfectly brewed coffee, called the Four T's.
Temperature - A consistent brewing temperature between 196°F - 205°F is essential for the extraction of coffee solubles.
Time - A saturation time of 4 - 6 minutes releases the full flavor of the coffee without over- or under-extracting it.
Turbulence - Agitation of the coffee grounds generated as the water flows through the grounds creates even saturation.
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - This is the ratio of coffee solubles to water that the brewer extracts. The ECBC defines ideal TDS yield as between 18% - 22%, and the SCA refers to this as “the Golden Cup.”
This is a basic, layman's writeup. For more detailed information, you can go to the European Coffee nerd club here >>> https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/certification-standards/ An interesting graph that illustrates WHY these parameters are important is below.
Also, while solids were tested - This is an ineffective test for a good cup o'Joe. Case in point? Try going to Starbucks and drinking their oil coffee. You can literally "feel" the grit. To me, this is disgusting and one of the things that I love about a clean Moccamaster. From the article linked above -
"Sediment - Excessive sediment in the brewed coffee should be avoided. The amount of sediment present will be measured in the following way: 100 millilitres is poured through a filter paper of known weight, which is dried and weighed again. The increase in the weight of the paper is the weight of the sediment. No equipment that produces sediment of more than 75 milligrams per 100 millilitres of brewed coffee will be accepted."
Characteristics of sediment:
Milligrams
You can literally "see" the difference with a good coffeemaker between an exceptional and good cup of coffee....and the taste is undeniable. Especially with a new coffee maker or one that is rid of residual oils, organic compounds and mineral deposits.
Without the ability to properly clean any of the machines tested (they are not built for constant brewing, which is needed to properly clean), these are all, to me, disposable machines. That said, if you don't care what your coffee tastes like, if Starbucks is right up your alley or gas station coffee is good enough for you? Any of these will do fine. FWIW.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
If you are serious about a great cup o'Joe, click onto this link. You will see that there aren't very many coffee makers out there that hit the criteria needed. This is a list of the few machines that made the cut.
https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/approved-brewers/
BTW, @Nightfall - great thread! I am learning a lot about coffee. There are many who are hardcore, and have been into this for a while. Thanks to those who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge. It appears as if I am a young Obi Wan, with still much to learn. I'm looking forward to completely botching my first roast! 😜😀
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
You guys suck. I don't even drink coffee anymore, but from a tools/appliance/process (ritual?) perspective, you guys are like an infomercial I just can't save myself from. The only solution is to not watch, or, like with carnival game people, just don't make eye contact, otherwise you're done for.
I'm pretty sure most of you have turntables, too.
I disabled signatures. -
No turntables here, but do have a Mizudashi cold brewer. Rich and smooth takes time.Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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Not one of them would survive many cleaning cycles (they are not built for that) and there was no mention of actual taste, which is the ultimate factor.
A better test than any of the tests reported would be the temperature of the water as it hits the beans. FYI - The coffee industry has defined scientific benchmarks for perfectly brewed coffee, called the Four T's.
Temperature - A consistent brewing temperature between 196°F - 205°F is essential for the extraction of coffee solubles.
Time - A saturation time of 4 - 6 minutes releases the full flavor of the coffee without over- or under-extracting it.
Turbulence - Agitation of the coffee grounds generated as the water flows through the grounds creates even saturation.
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - This is the ratio of coffee solubles to water that the brewer extracts. The ECBC defines ideal TDS yield as between 18% - 22%, and the SCA refers to this as “the Golden Cup.”
This is a basic, layman's writeup. For more detailed information, you can go to the European Coffee nerd club here >>> https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/certification-standards/ An interesting graph that illustrates WHY these parameters are important is below.
Also, while solids were tested - This is an ineffective test for a good cup o'Joe. Case in point? Try going to Starbucks and drinking their oil coffee. You can literally "feel" the grit. To me, this is disgusting and one of the things that I love about a clean Moccamaster. From the article linked above -
"Sediment - Excessive sediment in the brewed coffee should be avoided. The amount of sediment present will be measured in the following way: 100 millilitres is poured through a filter paper of known weight, which is dried and weighed again. The increase in the weight of the paper is the weight of the sediment. No equipment that produces sediment of more than 75 milligrams per 100 millilitres of brewed coffee will be accepted."
Characteristics of sediment:
Milligrams
You can literally "see" the difference with a good coffeemaker between an exceptional and good cup of coffee....and the taste is undeniable. Especially with a new coffee maker or one that is rid of residual oils, organic compounds and mineral deposits.
Without the ability to properly clean any of the machines tested (they are not built for constant brewing, which is needed to properly clean), these are all, to me, disposable machines. That said, if you don't care what your coffee tastes like, if Starbucks is right up your alley or gas station coffee is good enough for you? Any of these will do fine. FWIW.
Tom
This was more intended for entertainment, cottage or trailer machine, quick easy cup at the office or beginner's machine. -
This was more intended for entertainment, cottage or trailer machine, quick easy cup at the office or beginner's machine.
No worries. I just wanted to point out the flaws of said "test", which would naturally skew the results. Bunn makes a decent home or office style automatic drip coffeemaker, FWIW.I also bought the cleaning “pills” for my grinder. Can’t tell much about their effectiveness, but it seems like an easy way to clean a grinder.
Thanks for that. It does amaze me that, just like audio, everything affects everything. I bought some of the Urnex grinder tablets, seen below.
I have had my grinder since August of 2021 and never really considered this a very important aspect. My research always told me that a consistent grind was THE thing to extract those subtle notes and flavors that make up a good cup of Joe. Every once in a while, I would just brush the burr grinder assembly clean and go back to business. Well, this morning, I actually tried these. It was fairly simple and took all of about 5 minutes from start to finish.
I enjoyed one of my 20 ounce brews and made the coffee the same exact way, with the same exact portions of everything and was a little taken back at the change in the flavor. Now, this was not a night and day difference but there was a difference that was definitely detectable. Long story short, it tasted "fresher" and cleaner for some reason. More of the subtle notes came out in the second brew (after cleaning).
I will now add this to my ritual whenever I clean the coffee maker, I will also do the same thing with the burr grinder. Like I said, this is something I never really thought about and I honesty think it wouldn't amount to jack....but to my surprise? It did. Thanks again.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Nice choice of grinders, guys! I will need to research the Zerno and Lagom some more. Will you be keeping the DF 64 as a backup?
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That ECBC site is informative, but they do seem to be completely biased toward drip machines. No espresso machines, no pour over equipment, no cold brew, no french press, no aeropress, etc. There is no 1 correct way to make coffee. It can be greatly enjoyed through any one of those alternate methods.
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Nice choice of grinders, guys! I will need to research the Zerno and Lagom some more. Will you be keeping the DF 64 as a backup?
Yes, the DF64 will be a backup. Honestly, for the price and w/good burrs, I'd recommend it hands down over anything sub $500 and a bit over. Amortized over several years, it's really affordable and is built well enough to last the average Joe for many years.
I still intend to get the Fiorenzato up and running. Just need to figure out how to get a grip on the collar and enough torque without gouging it. I'm fighting the cross thread problem and springs pushing up from the grind area. We're kind of on the prowl for a lake cabin, so one of them will go there if/when we have a second place.
As stangman said, the Zerno is all the rage. They started w/Kickstarter (or similar) and have sold out within minutes. They're on the 5th round of offerings and continue to refine the machine. The cool part is the company/co-owner/designer/engineer, all the same guy, are in the US (Chicago) and it's built here in the US of A. His name is Vel and very active on the Coffee Aficionados Discord site (Zerno thread). He actively engages the coffee community and takes input/design cues from actual users. https://discord.com/channels/726985544038612993/1024033939192557568
Vel's is a true American success story. Part of my attraction to the grinder/company. https://dailycoffeenews.com/2022/09/26/chicago-startup-grinder-maker-zerno-readies-the-high-end-z1/
https://zerno.co/➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio PMG Signature Pre, BHK Signature 250, PMG Signature 512 ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S3.3 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
That ECBC site is informative, but they do seem to be completely biased toward drip machines. No espresso machines, no pour over equipment, no cold brew, no french press, no aeropress, etc. There is no 1 correct way to make coffee. It can be greatly enjoyed through any one of those alternate methods.
Agreed. I don't know if they are biased or that they just test automatic drip machines. I personally will not flick my finger under my nose, raising my head up at the same time on any brewing methods. Heck, I can even enjoy a cold brew coffee!
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Many different ways to enjoy coffee (and music reproduction).
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@maxward, @stangman67, anyone else....
Green bean heads-up. Do you guys get the SM's emails?
If you've not compared different harvest processing methods, a cool experiment. It's amazing how the same bean, when dry vs wet processed, can be so different in the cup. Ethiopians are excellent examples of this. Gesha's from South America, a sought after bean know for it's floral characteristics, was a really interesting one I've done.
Latest from SM's and worth grabbing if you want to expand your knowledge/experience.
"The latest entry into our featured coffee sets is the 4 lbs Ethiopia Process Method Set. This set highlights the different flavors that come from the wet and dry process methods, and includes four of our top lots from the current green coffee catalog.
The wet and dry process methods are the two most used means of processing coffee in the world, and each leaves their own unique mark on the cup. From fruit to floral and everything in between, this set is an opportunity to compare how these flavor differences are expressed across four delicious Ethiopian coffees.
If you're looking for more volume, we still offer our 10 lbs "XL" Ethiopia Process Method Set, but for smaller capacity air roasters we think the 4lbs set will be a lot of fun!"
https://www.sweetmarias.com/4-lbs-ethiopia-process-method-set.html➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio PMG Signature Pre, BHK Signature 250, PMG Signature 512 ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S3.3 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
Thanks. Yes, and part of my recent order was the 10 lbs XL Ethiopian process method. It will be a couple weeks before I try one of those.
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@JayCee thanks for the suggestion, I’ll add that combo pack to my next order. Roasting time this weekend for my first weekly batch
2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
Friday night roast complete! I am having way too much fun with this. Need to play with the design on the label a bunch still
2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
You coffee nerds should seek-out and watch Dangerous Grounds, which was a (sadly) short-lived docu-series where a dude named Todd Carmichael traversed the globe, looking for the absolute best coffee beans he could find for his Philadelphia-based coffee company.
He traveled with a portable, hand-powered, roaster, and (I think) hand-powered grinder, where he would roast, grind, and brew coffee on-the-spot (i.e., on the coffee plantation) to determine if it was worthy of attempting to import the beans into the states (i.e., his coffee company).
It is a very informative and interesting series to watch...whether you like coffee, or not."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Sounds very interesting, I found it but have to pay for each episode.2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/NzfATkjy247uhzN3/?mibextid=xCPwDs
Okay, that's all I got.
Please return to your previously scheduled threadSal Palooza -
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Pretty long listen but there's a ton of info about coffee here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWWVNq5GHp4 -
Pretty long listen but there's a ton of info about coffee here.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWWVNq5GHp4
All that effort, and equipment bought/donated by sponsors, and he couldn't get a burr grinder?
For the most part, I really like that guy's channel and have been a subscriber for years. -
@stangman67 Of the one pound bags of Sweet Maria’s coffee I have roasted so far, a winner was the Colombia Inza Cresta El Hato, which is still in stock.
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@stangman67 Of the one pound bags of Sweet Maria’s coffee I have roasted so far, a winner was the Colombia Inza Cresta El Hato, which is still in stock.
Thanks for the heads up! I’m running low on 10speed so I have to put an order in soon. Do you have the graph saved for how you roasted it?
2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
Roasted to full city +. I don’t use any software other than monitoring time and temperature.
