Coffee

jdjohn

...or tequila

billbillw

The chemist in me has issue...water is a molecule, not an element...
But essential, for sure...beer, wine, coffee, all need it...

msg

Haha, @billbillw, are you the "Actuallllllyyy..." guy?!?

maxward

Just got my latest shipment from Sweet Maria’s. In addition to the usual 20 pounds of several different Ethiopian beans, I decided to try their sample of latest additions. Seven one-pound bags of widely varying beans. I hope to find something I like that will still be in stock.

stangman67

Very cool! Let me know what your favorites are, I’ll buy and try. I really really like how their 10 speed blend turned out. I’m going to always keep some around and roast some every week,

JayCee

Big fan of the Yemen's. Some of the most expensive beans from SM's but I've never been disappointed. The Haraz in your sampler is one I've purchased twice in previous years.

Just received SM's Friday offerings email and Mokha Matari is in stock. Hands down my favorite Yemen. Pulled up my records...I've gone through 24 lb's starting in 2018 and the most repeated bean I've purchased since I started roasting in 2009. My opinion, worth placing an additional order if you like the Haraz.

Checked out the "Green Coffee Outlook" and the remainder of this year's Yemen shipments should be released, soon.

Hopefully, I can maximize a large order and shipping costs. I'll probably give them a call on Monday to find out timelines.

Happy roasting!

JayCee

stangman67 wrote: »

I bought a Kaleido M1.

How's the Kaleido? I purchased the M2 (last Dec) to up my game, moving from a Gene Cafe that I've used since 2009. Didn't get the Kaleido tablet...went Pro to use w/the Artisan software. Have done 2 seasoning roasts but, unfortunately, in the middle of house renovations, so the Sniper has been neglected. Will say, holy $hite...my first roast went nuclear really quick and caused the roaster to shut down. Not a fault of the roaster, rather, my lack of understanding the software/parameters. Looks to be a learning curve compared to my years of using the Gene Cafe.

Don't know when I'll get time to experiment w/the M2. Roasting a predictable and consistent batch is #1 priority ATM vs. getting the Kaleido going until I have time to dive in.

Kaleido patiently waiting to replace the Gene Cafe....

Willow

stangman67 wrote: »

2 updates.


1. Brewed some espresso today with one of my first day roasts. It was drinkable and I’m happy about that, I wouldn’t say it was good compared to the coffee I tend to drink as I always use high quality fresh beans from small roasteries but drinkable is good enough

2. Did two roasts tonight with the goal of replicating them exactly to see how easy it is to control this Kaleido. As you can see from the graph below which has both roasts overlayed, it was incredibly easy to replicate. I’m shocked. The beans I used are Sweet Maria’s 10 speed blend

When you are roasting, does the house smell of coffee beans hard core, does it go away?

Willow

machone wrote: »

Do any of you guys ever drink instant?

Do you have a lifestyle set up

treitz3 wrote: »

Oh hell no.

Tom

Answer better be to both

stangman67

JayCee wrote: »

stangman67 wrote: »

I bought a Kaleido M1.

How's the Kaleido? I purchased the M2 (last Dec) to up my game, moving from a Gene Cafe that I've used since 2009. Didn't get the Kaleido tablet...went Pro to use w/the Artisan software. Have done 2 seasoning roasts but, unfortunately, in the middle of house renovations, so the Sniper has been neglected. Will say, holy $hite...my first roast went nuclear really quick and caused the roaster to shut down. Not a fault of the roaster, rather, my lack of understanding the software/parameters. Looks to be a learning curve compared to my years of using the Gene Cafe.

Don't know when I'll get time to experiment w/the M2. Roasting a predictable and consistent batch is #1 priority ATM vs. getting the Kaleido going until I have time to dive in.

Kaleido patiently waiting to replace the Gene Cafe....

So far so good, I struggled on the first roast. ET dropped sharply at the beginning and then I cranked the heat and the ROR was all over the place.

On the subsequent roasts I’ve gotten the base method down pretty well, preheat at 190C for 20 minutes. When I drop the beans, drum to 80 percent, burner to 50 percent and exhaust to 20 percent. And that does very well as a base with only needing minor modifications as the roast goes.

I think I’ll regret not going straight to the M2 but the M1 was about as much as I was willing to spend on my first foray into roasting.

stangman67

Willow wrote: »

stangman67 wrote: »

2 updates.


1. Brewed some espresso today with one of my first day roasts. It was drinkable and I’m happy about that, I wouldn’t say it was good compared to the coffee I tend to drink as I always use high quality fresh beans from small roasteries but drinkable is good enough

2. Did two roasts tonight with the goal of replicating them exactly to see how easy it is to control this Kaleido. As you can see from the graph below which has both roasts overlayed, it was incredibly easy to replicate. I’m shocked. The beans I used are Sweet Maria’s 10 speed blend

When you are roasting, does the house smell of coffee beans hard core, does it go away?

It definitely smells like coffee beans but it doesn’t linger too long.

JayCee

stangman67 wrote: »

I think I’ll regret not going straight to the M2 but the M1 was about as much as I was willing to spend on my first foray into roasting.

I roast back-to-back 1/2 lb's (1 lb per week) which, capacity wise, the Gene Cafe comfortably does. I contemplated the M1 but wanted the overhead the M2 provides. M1's not cheap compared to some of the entry level machines on the market but, I'd speculate, a huge jump from, say, a Freshroast. At a minimum...you have so much more control over the entire roast process w/the M1.

I've gifted 3 Freshroasts to family members and they're nice for casual/entry level use but the Kaleido is a much better build/design. Between the Freshroast and Gene Cafe there's a huge difference in the cup quality. I can see where you may outgrow the M1, however, assuming same build quality as the M2, a very solid choice as a first machine. Just a guess but I'd be surprised if you couldn't sell for a descent price to move to the M2....worth the hit since you're just getting into this.

stangman67 wrote: »

So far so good, I struggled on the first roast. ET dropped sharply at the beginning and then I cranked the heat and the ROR was all over the place.

On the subsequent roasts I’ve gotten the base method down pretty well, preheat at 190C for 20 minutes. When I drop the beans, drum to 80 percent, burner to 50 percent and exhaust to 20 percent. And that does very well as a base with only needing minor modifications as the roast goes.

Thanks for the details. Confirms what I'd found based on the vid's and little bit of reading I could find.

One of my goals is to coax out more of the flavors I enjoy. Particularly, berry/fruit. First crack is not hard to get to...it's the initial drying out after drop and development post first crack I hope to nail w/the M2. Also, being able to save profiles after successful roasts will be a game changer to repeat and/or refine.

stangman67 wrote: »

I really really like how their 10 speed blend turned out. I’m going to always keep some around and roast some every week,

I roasted SM's Ten Speed Blend but only ordered 1 lb. Not sure how much longer they'll have it around as it's one of their rotating releases based on current crops. If you've not tried it, Espresso Monkey Blend is really solid and each year they adjust to the same taste/goal/formula. Chocolate, fruit, sweet and killer crema are the hallmarks. It'll be my baseline for many multiples of learning roasts on the M2.

msg

Curious, how much coffee do you drink, oz-wise, daily? Curious as to how long a roasted lb. lasts, and if roasting multiple blends, long-ish term storage methods?

I looked into this back when I drank coffee more regularly and had several types in house. It wasn't uncommon to have 3 or 4 bags open at a time

I was only drinking about 56 oz. a day when I was drinking the most.

Amount of coffee required to make a 14oz travel mug size or 16oz thermos (got yucky after a couple of hours) could vary between 14g-28g, ground, or about 0.5oz - 1oz ground coffee. I used an Aeropress exclusively. This could be about 1lb a week, so with different varieties open, storage time was a consideration.

I've seen the valves bags, and read Zach me tion them here, too. Curious as to consumption levels and storage methods and expectation for "usable" stock. Presuming you guys only grind immediately before brewing.

stangman67

@JayCee i think you will love the M2 once you get used to it. For my first time roasting I have found the M1 to be very user friendly. I bought the dual version so has both Artisan capability as well as the Kaleido software.

I’ll take your advice on the Espresso Monkey blend when I put my next order in.

@msg Scott, i generally drink a single double shot of espresso a day, or a latte with the same double shot. My wife does the same, sometimes we will each have two a day on the weekend.

We go through about 10-12oz of whole bean coffee a week. And yes we exclusively grind right before each shot. Once I get through the other few bags of frozen coffee we have, I will get in a routine of roasting 12oz every Saturday so I will always have a new batch when needed. No need to stock up on anything.

JayCee

msg wrote: »

Curious, how much coffee do you drink, oz-wise, daily? Curious as to how long a roasted lb. lasts, and if roasting multiple blends...?

I don't use more than one blend or single origin coffee at a time.

Consumption...I have 2 Americanos in the AM. Each Americano comprised of 20 grams coffee ground into a triple shot bottomless portafilter. First step is 2 oz's of hot water in the cup followed by the pulled shot that's also 2 oz's...a 4 oz Americano. I like the shot to incorperate into the water vs the other way around because the espresso mixes w/the water but leaves a wonderful crema on top. Do it reversed w/the water added at the end and the crema gets diluted. Doesn't affect the taste as it's more a texture/mouthfeel thing (okay...let the jokes fly...lol!)

Wife has one 10 oz Americano...she doesn't like it as strong as I do so there's the same 2 oz shot but I add 8 oz's of water. On an average day, we use 60 grams of coffee. Like stangman, on occasion, we might have another shot if the day warrants it.

I haven't done the math but I find I roast approx every week...give or take a day or two. Takes me 30ish minutes, not counting prep, to roast 1 lb.

msg wrote: »

I've seen the valves bags...and storage methods and expectation for "usable" stock. Presuming you guys only grind immediately before brewing.

Yes, grind on demand. Air/age is the enemy of fresh coffee. After roasting I let the beans rest a minimum of 24 hours and, in the case of Ethiopian or Kenyan, 48-72 hours. For Yemen's, 72 hours is a minimum. All beans off-gas C02 and affect the taste. The gas also affects the grind and trying to dial-in the shot. Another reason for the longer resting is the bean density. Beans grown at higher altitudes are denser and this has a direct correlation to roasting times, rest and grind.

Storage...

When I started roasting I used the one way valve bags but found they were good until you open them. Once open, even w/the valve, you've compromised the seal, introduced oxygen and the aging begins. I can taste a difference in this storage method from day one to day seven.

Moved to Airscape canisters after a year or two https://planetarydesign.com/product/airscape-coffee-canister/.




I purchased the 1/2 and 1 lb canisters plus additional inner lids. After rest, I weighed out my daily amount of beans for the 1 lb and stacked the inner lids w/each day's worth of coffee in the canister...and, of note, I separated the top of each inner lid w/a thin piece of plastic to keep the beans from binding up the valve. I have enough canisters and inner lids to do several lbs. In my experience, this does and admirable job keeping the beans fresh and they only hit the air when each day's ration is used.

But, in the spirit of of Six-Sigma and Total Quality Management...I embrace the philosophy that every process can be refined.

So, here's what I've evolved to....single dose vials (test tubes) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0C9DQFCMH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

Saw the concept on a boutique coffee accessory website and they wanted stoooopid money for glass vials. Got my Amazon search on and found plastic tubes w/lids that can be purchased in bulk. This is the freshest storage I've found. After rest (still use the Airscape for rest), I weigh out 20 grams and its a perfect fit in a vial. Takes about 20 minutes to weigh and place in the tubes but I'm golden for a week and don't have to do the process each time I want a shot. Grab a vial, open, dump in the grinder (I do single dose grinding). Plus, much easier for the wife or family that visits. Has really helped the workflow in pulling a shot. Some may argue that my weight (20 grams) will be off after days of rest, humidity, etc., but I believe it's negated because all my vials are the same weight on day 1. Where it matters, in the grind, I adjust the grinder each day to hit my target pull of the shot.

Pic of the vials...


@stangman67, you might recognize this grinder? Think I saw it in one of your pics???

Another thread w/my setup in 2020. Grinder, roaster and workflow have changed since then:
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2601665/#Comment_2601665

Teaser...I have another grinder on order. Five month wait list but should arrive in the next month or so. Will post more when it arrives.

stangman67

@JayCee that is a DF64 grinder, of which I had at one point. I have a Lagom P64 now which is likely my last grinder for a very long time. What grinder did you buy???

Like you I use generally use individual coffee storage. I use the Bean Vaults from Craig Lyn. Super pretentious but I like them. Lately I’ve been lately and just going from the bag but I need to get back to using the vaults.

JayCee

Nice grinder that Lagom. Correct, currently using the D64. Saw the forks in the picture you posted and from the angle and profile I guessed it was the 64.

Back in Nov I was cleaning my Fiorenzato F4E Nano and cross-threaded the collar. Damn thing locked up and I can't get it free. Needed something ASAP, so purchased the LUCCA D64 from Clive Coffee and upgraded to the SSP Red burrs. For ~$500 it's no slouch. Thought it would be a lateral move from the Fiorenzato but it's bested it.

Hated to drop the $$$ on a temp thing but the D64 has been a place holder. Next level for me is the Zerno Z1. Was able to get in when they opened round 5 pre-orders in Dec. By all accounts, this should keep me happy for quite some time. I chose the SSP High Uniformity blind burrs and olive wood accents. Round 5 starts shipping next month. https://zerno.co/


The Bean Vault is really nice. I was super close to buying the same but I wanted a ton of vials. Cost added up way too quick for me. I cheaped out...you'll get no pretentious judgement from me. Looks like you're doing things right.

stangman67

I figured it was the Zerno! It’s the new hotness. Will be very interested in your impressions.

I too liked my DF64 but it was always a placeholder as well. I’m not sure the Lagom is any “better” but the fit and finish is light years ahead and the grind adjustment is much better, not to mention it’s silent compared to the DF. I have SSP MP in the P64 and am very happy

Willow

No where near the level of drinking and expertise but interesting tests
https://youtu.be/5D4UgPHOpbk?si=RIDERMbqcSiT9fNx

treitz3

Not one of them would survive many cleaning cycles (they are not built for that) and there was no mention of actual taste, which is the ultimate factor.

A better test than any of the tests reported would be the temperature of the water as it hits the beans. FYI - The coffee industry has defined scientific benchmarks for perfectly brewed coffee, called the Four T's.

Temperature - A consistent brewing temperature between 196°F - 205°F is essential for the extraction of coffee solubles.

Time - A saturation time of 4 - 6 minutes releases the full flavor of the coffee without over- or under-extracting it.

Turbulence - Agitation of the coffee grounds generated as the water flows through the grounds creates even saturation.

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - This is the ratio of coffee solubles to water that the brewer extracts. The ECBC defines ideal TDS yield as between 18% - 22%, and the SCA refers to this as “the Golden Cup.”

This is a basic, layman's writeup. For more detailed information, you can go to the European Coffee nerd club here >>> https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/certification-standards/ An interesting graph that illustrates WHY these parameters are important is below.



Also, while solids were tested - This is an ineffective test for a good cup o'Joe. Case in point? Try going to Starbucks and drinking their oil coffee. You can literally "feel" the grit. To me, this is disgusting and one of the things that I love about a clean Moccamaster. From the article linked above -

"Sediment - Excessive sediment in the brewed coffee should be avoided. The amount of sediment present will be measured in the following way: 100 millilitres is poured through a filter paper of known weight, which is dried and weighed again. The increase in the weight of the paper is the weight of the sediment. No equipment that produces sediment of more than 75 milligrams per 100 millilitres of brewed coffee will be accepted."

Characteristics of sediment:
Milligrams



You can literally "see" the difference with a good coffeemaker between an exceptional and good cup of coffee....and the taste is undeniable. Especially with a new coffee maker or one that is rid of residual oils, organic compounds and mineral deposits.

Without the ability to properly clean any of the machines tested (they are not built for constant brewing, which is needed to properly clean), these are all, to me, disposable machines. That said, if you don't care what your coffee tastes like, if Starbucks is right up your alley or gas station coffee is good enough for you? Any of these will do fine. FWIW.

Tom

treitz3

If you are serious about a great cup o'Joe, click onto this link. You will see that there aren't very many coffee makers out there that hit the criteria needed. This is a list of the few machines that made the cut.

https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/approved-brewers/

BTW, @Nightfall - great thread! I am learning a lot about coffee. There are many who are hardcore, and have been into this for a while. Thanks to those who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge. It appears as if I am a young Obi Wan, with still much to learn. I'm looking forward to completely botching my first roast! 😜😀

Tom

msg

You guys suck. I don't even drink coffee anymore, but from a tools/appliance/process (ritual?) perspective, you guys are like an infomercial I just can't save myself from. The only solution is to not watch, or, like with carnival game people, just don't make eye contact, otherwise you're done for.

I'm pretty sure most of you have turntables, too.

xschop

No turntables here, but do have a Mizudashi cold brewer. Rich and smooth takes time.

Willow

treitz3 wrote: »

Not one of them would survive many cleaning cycles (they are not built for that) and there was no mention of actual taste, which is the ultimate factor.

A better test than any of the tests reported would be the temperature of the water as it hits the beans. FYI - The coffee industry has defined scientific benchmarks for perfectly brewed coffee, called the Four T's.

Temperature - A consistent brewing temperature between 196°F - 205°F is essential for the extraction of coffee solubles.

Time - A saturation time of 4 - 6 minutes releases the full flavor of the coffee without over- or under-extracting it.

Turbulence - Agitation of the coffee grounds generated as the water flows through the grounds creates even saturation.

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - This is the ratio of coffee solubles to water that the brewer extracts. The ECBC defines ideal TDS yield as between 18% - 22%, and the SCA refers to this as “the Golden Cup.”

This is a basic, layman's writeup. For more detailed information, you can go to the European Coffee nerd club here >>> https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/certification-standards/ An interesting graph that illustrates WHY these parameters are important is below.



Also, while solids were tested - This is an ineffective test for a good cup o'Joe. Case in point? Try going to Starbucks and drinking their oil coffee. You can literally "feel" the grit. To me, this is disgusting and one of the things that I love about a clean Moccamaster. From the article linked above -

"Sediment - Excessive sediment in the brewed coffee should be avoided. The amount of sediment present will be measured in the following way: 100 millilitres is poured through a filter paper of known weight, which is dried and weighed again. The increase in the weight of the paper is the weight of the sediment. No equipment that produces sediment of more than 75 milligrams per 100 millilitres of brewed coffee will be accepted."

Characteristics of sediment:
Milligrams



You can literally "see" the difference with a good coffeemaker between an exceptional and good cup of coffee....and the taste is undeniable. Especially with a new coffee maker or one that is rid of residual oils, organic compounds and mineral deposits.

Without the ability to properly clean any of the machines tested (they are not built for constant brewing, which is needed to properly clean), these are all, to me, disposable machines. That said, if you don't care what your coffee tastes like, if Starbucks is right up your alley or gas station coffee is good enough for you? Any of these will do fine. FWIW.

Tom

This was more intended for entertainment, cottage or trailer machine, quick easy cup at the office or beginner's machine.

treitz3

Willow wrote: »

This was more intended for entertainment, cottage or trailer machine, quick easy cup at the office or beginner's machine.

No worries. I just wanted to point out the flaws of said "test", which would naturally skew the results. Bunn makes a decent home or office style automatic drip coffeemaker, FWIW.

PSOVLSK wrote: »

I also bought the cleaning “pills” for my grinder. Can’t tell much about their effectiveness, but it seems like an easy way to clean a grinder.

Thanks for that. It does amaze me that, just like audio, everything affects everything. I bought some of the Urnex grinder tablets, seen below.



I have had my grinder since August of 2021 and never really considered this a very important aspect. My research always told me that a consistent grind was THE thing to extract those subtle notes and flavors that make up a good cup of Joe. Every once in a while, I would just brush the burr grinder assembly clean and go back to business. Well, this morning, I actually tried these. It was fairly simple and took all of about 5 minutes from start to finish.

I enjoyed one of my 20 ounce brews and made the coffee the same exact way, with the same exact portions of everything and was a little taken back at the change in the flavor. Now, this was not a night and day difference but there was a difference that was definitely detectable. Long story short, it tasted "fresher" and cleaner for some reason. More of the subtle notes came out in the second brew (after cleaning).

I will now add this to my ritual whenever I clean the coffee maker, I will also do the same thing with the burr grinder. Like I said, this is something I never really thought about and I honesty think it wouldn't amount to jack....but to my surprise? It did. Thanks again.

Tom

maxward

Nice choice of grinders, guys! I will need to research the Zerno and Lagom some more. Will you be keeping the DF 64 as a backup?

billbillw

That ECBC site is informative, but they do seem to be completely biased toward drip machines. No espresso machines, no pour over equipment, no cold brew, no french press, no aeropress, etc. There is no 1 correct way to make coffee. It can be greatly enjoyed through any one of those alternate methods.

JayCee

maxward wrote: »

Nice choice of grinders, guys! I will need to research the Zerno and Lagom some more. Will you be keeping the DF 64 as a backup?

Yes, the DF64 will be a backup. Honestly, for the price and w/good burrs, I'd recommend it hands down over anything sub $500 and a bit over. Amortized over several years, it's really affordable and is built well enough to last the average Joe for many years.

I still intend to get the Fiorenzato up and running. Just need to figure out how to get a grip on the collar and enough torque without gouging it. I'm fighting the cross thread problem and springs pushing up from the grind area. We're kind of on the prowl for a lake cabin, so one of them will go there if/when we have a second place.

As stangman said, the Zerno is all the rage. They started w/Kickstarter (or similar) and have sold out within minutes. They're on the 5th round of offerings and continue to refine the machine. The cool part is the company/co-owner/designer/engineer, all the same guy, are in the US (Chicago) and it's built here in the US of A. His name is Vel and very active on the Coffee Aficionados Discord site (Zerno thread). He actively engages the coffee community and takes input/design cues from actual users. https://discord.com/channels/726985544038612993/1024033939192557568

Vel's is a true American success story. Part of my attraction to the grinder/company. https://dailycoffeenews.com/2022/09/26/chicago-startup-grinder-maker-zerno-readies-the-high-end-z1/

https://zerno.co/

treitz3

billbillw wrote: »

That ECBC site is informative, but they do seem to be completely biased toward drip machines. No espresso machines, no pour over equipment, no cold brew, no french press, no aeropress, etc. There is no 1 correct way to make coffee. It can be greatly enjoyed through any one of those alternate methods.

Agreed. I don't know if they are biased or that they just test automatic drip machines. I personally will not flick my finger under my nose, raising my head up at the same time on any brewing methods. Heck, I can even enjoy a cold brew coffee!

Tom

maxward

Many different ways to enjoy coffee (and music reproduction).