Coffee
Comments
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Curious, how much coffee do you drink, oz-wise, daily? Curious as to how long a roasted lb. lasts, and if roasting multiple blends...?
I don't use more than one blend or single origin coffee at a time.
Consumption...I have 2 Americanos in the AM. Each Americano comprised of 20 grams coffee ground into a triple shot bottomless portafilter. First step is 2 oz's of hot water in the cup followed by the pulled shot that's also 2 oz's...a 4 oz Americano. I like the shot to incorperate into the water vs the other way around because the espresso mixes w/the water but leaves a wonderful crema on top. Do it reversed w/the water added at the end and the crema gets diluted. Doesn't affect the taste as it's more a texture/mouthfeel thing (okay...let the jokes fly...lol!)
Wife has one 10 oz Americano...she doesn't like it as strong as I do so there's the same 2 oz shot but I add 8 oz's of water. On an average day, we use 60 grams of coffee. Like stangman, on occasion, we might have another shot if the day warrants it.
I haven't done the math but I find I roast approx every week...give or take a day or two. Takes me 30ish minutes, not counting prep, to roast 1 lb.I've seen the valves bags...and storage methods and expectation for "usable" stock. Presuming you guys only grind immediately before brewing.
Yes, grind on demand. Air/age is the enemy of fresh coffee. After roasting I let the beans rest a minimum of 24 hours and, in the case of Ethiopian or Kenyan, 48-72 hours. For Yemen's, 72 hours is a minimum. All beans off-gas C02 and affect the taste. The gas also affects the grind and trying to dial-in the shot. Another reason for the longer resting is the bean density. Beans grown at higher altitudes are denser and this has a direct correlation to roasting times, rest and grind.
Storage...
When I started roasting I used the one way valve bags but found they were good until you open them. Once open, even w/the valve, you've compromised the seal, introduced oxygen and the aging begins. I can taste a difference in this storage method from day one to day seven.
Moved to Airscape canisters after a year or two https://planetarydesign.com/product/airscape-coffee-canister/.
I purchased the 1/2 and 1 lb canisters plus additional inner lids. After rest, I weighed out my daily amount of beans for the 1 lb and stacked the inner lids w/each day's worth of coffee in the canister...and, of note, I separated the top of each inner lid w/a thin piece of plastic to keep the beans from binding up the valve. I have enough canisters and inner lids to do several lbs. In my experience, this does and admirable job keeping the beans fresh and they only hit the air when each day's ration is used.
But, in the spirit of of Six-Sigma and Total Quality Management...I embrace the philosophy that every process can be refined.
So, here's what I've evolved to....single dose vials (test tubes) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0C9DQFCMH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1.
Saw the concept on a boutique coffee accessory website and they wanted stoooopid money for glass vials. Got my Amazon search on and found plastic tubes w/lids that can be purchased in bulk. This is the freshest storage I've found. After rest (still use the Airscape for rest), I weigh out 20 grams and its a perfect fit in a vial. Takes about 20 minutes to weigh and place in the tubes but I'm golden for a week and don't have to do the process each time I want a shot. Grab a vial, open, dump in the grinder (I do single dose grinding). Plus, much easier for the wife or family that visits. Has really helped the workflow in pulling a shot. Some may argue that my weight (20 grams) will be off after days of rest, humidity, etc., but I believe it's negated because all my vials are the same weight on day 1. Where it matters, in the grind, I adjust the grinder each day to hit my target pull of the shot.
Pic of the vials...
@stangman67, you might recognize this grinder? Think I saw it in one of your pics???
Another thread w/my setup in 2020. Grinder, roaster and workflow have changed since then:
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2601665/#Comment_2601665
Teaser...I have another grinder on order. Five month wait list but should arrive in the next month or so. Will post more when it arrives.➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
@JayCee that is a DF64 grinder, of which I had at one point. I have a Lagom P64 now which is likely my last grinder for a very long time. What grinder did you buy???
Like you I use generally use individual coffee storage. I use the Bean Vaults from Craig Lyn. Super pretentious but I like them. Lately I’ve been lately and just going from the bag but I need to get back to using the vaults.
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Nice grinder that Lagom. Correct, currently using the D64. Saw the forks in the picture you posted and from the angle and profile I guessed it was the 64.
Back in Nov I was cleaning my Fiorenzato F4E Nano and cross-threaded the collar. Damn thing locked up and I can't get it free. Needed something ASAP, so purchased the LUCCA D64 from Clive Coffee and upgraded to the SSP Red burrs. For ~$500 it's no slouch. Thought it would be a lateral move from the Fiorenzato but it's bested it.
Hated to drop the $$$ on a temp thing but the D64 has been a place holder. Next level for me is the Zerno Z1. Was able to get in when they opened round 5 pre-orders in Dec. By all accounts, this should keep me happy for quite some time. I chose the SSP High Uniformity blind burrs and olive wood accents. Round 5 starts shipping next month. https://zerno.co/
The Bean Vault is really nice. I was super close to buying the same but I wanted a ton of vials. Cost added up way too quick for me. I cheaped out...you'll get no pretentious judgement from me. Looks like you're doing things right.➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
I figured it was the Zerno! It’s the new hotness. Will be very interested in your impressions.
I too liked my DF64 but it was always a placeholder as well. I’m not sure the Lagom is any “better” but the fit and finish is light years ahead and the grind adjustment is much better, not to mention it’s silent compared to the DF. I have SSP MP in the P64 and am very happy2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
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No where near the level of drinking and expertise but interesting tests
https://youtu.be/5D4UgPHOpbk?si=RIDERMbqcSiT9fNx -
Not one of them would survive many cleaning cycles (they are not built for that) and there was no mention of actual taste, which is the ultimate factor.
A better test than any of the tests reported would be the temperature of the water as it hits the beans. FYI - The coffee industry has defined scientific benchmarks for perfectly brewed coffee, called the Four T's.
Temperature - A consistent brewing temperature between 196°F - 205°F is essential for the extraction of coffee solubles.
Time - A saturation time of 4 - 6 minutes releases the full flavor of the coffee without over- or under-extracting it.
Turbulence - Agitation of the coffee grounds generated as the water flows through the grounds creates even saturation.
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - This is the ratio of coffee solubles to water that the brewer extracts. The ECBC defines ideal TDS yield as between 18% - 22%, and the SCA refers to this as “the Golden Cup.”
This is a basic, layman's writeup. For more detailed information, you can go to the European Coffee nerd club here >>> https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/certification-standards/ An interesting graph that illustrates WHY these parameters are important is below.
Also, while solids were tested - This is an ineffective test for a good cup o'Joe. Case in point? Try going to Starbucks and drinking their oil coffee. You can literally "feel" the grit. To me, this is disgusting and one of the things that I love about a clean Moccamaster. From the article linked above -
"Sediment - Excessive sediment in the brewed coffee should be avoided. The amount of sediment present will be measured in the following way: 100 millilitres is poured through a filter paper of known weight, which is dried and weighed again. The increase in the weight of the paper is the weight of the sediment. No equipment that produces sediment of more than 75 milligrams per 100 millilitres of brewed coffee will be accepted."
Characteristics of sediment:
Milligrams
You can literally "see" the difference with a good coffeemaker between an exceptional and good cup of coffee....and the taste is undeniable. Especially with a new coffee maker or one that is rid of residual oils, organic compounds and mineral deposits.
Without the ability to properly clean any of the machines tested (they are not built for constant brewing, which is needed to properly clean), these are all, to me, disposable machines. That said, if you don't care what your coffee tastes like, if Starbucks is right up your alley or gas station coffee is good enough for you? Any of these will do fine. FWIW.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
If you are serious about a great cup o'Joe, click onto this link. You will see that there aren't very many coffee makers out there that hit the criteria needed. This is a list of the few machines that made the cut.
https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/approved-brewers/
BTW, @Nightfall - great thread! I am learning a lot about coffee. There are many who are hardcore, and have been into this for a while. Thanks to those who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge. It appears as if I am a young Obi Wan, with still much to learn. I'm looking forward to completely botching my first roast! 😜😀
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
You guys suck. I don't even drink coffee anymore, but from a tools/appliance/process (ritual?) perspective, you guys are like an infomercial I just can't save myself from. The only solution is to not watch, or, like with carnival game people, just don't make eye contact, otherwise you're done for.
I'm pretty sure most of you have turntables, too.
I disabled signatures. -
No turntables here, but do have a Mizudashi cold brewer. Rich and smooth takes time.Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists.
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Not one of them would survive many cleaning cycles (they are not built for that) and there was no mention of actual taste, which is the ultimate factor.
A better test than any of the tests reported would be the temperature of the water as it hits the beans. FYI - The coffee industry has defined scientific benchmarks for perfectly brewed coffee, called the Four T's.
Temperature - A consistent brewing temperature between 196°F - 205°F is essential for the extraction of coffee solubles.
Time - A saturation time of 4 - 6 minutes releases the full flavor of the coffee without over- or under-extracting it.
Turbulence - Agitation of the coffee grounds generated as the water flows through the grounds creates even saturation.
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - This is the ratio of coffee solubles to water that the brewer extracts. The ECBC defines ideal TDS yield as between 18% - 22%, and the SCA refers to this as “the Golden Cup.”
This is a basic, layman's writeup. For more detailed information, you can go to the European Coffee nerd club here >>> https://www.ecbc.no/overview/domestic/certification-standards/ An interesting graph that illustrates WHY these parameters are important is below.
Also, while solids were tested - This is an ineffective test for a good cup o'Joe. Case in point? Try going to Starbucks and drinking their oil coffee. You can literally "feel" the grit. To me, this is disgusting and one of the things that I love about a clean Moccamaster. From the article linked above -
"Sediment - Excessive sediment in the brewed coffee should be avoided. The amount of sediment present will be measured in the following way: 100 millilitres is poured through a filter paper of known weight, which is dried and weighed again. The increase in the weight of the paper is the weight of the sediment. No equipment that produces sediment of more than 75 milligrams per 100 millilitres of brewed coffee will be accepted."
Characteristics of sediment:
Milligrams
You can literally "see" the difference with a good coffeemaker between an exceptional and good cup of coffee....and the taste is undeniable. Especially with a new coffee maker or one that is rid of residual oils, organic compounds and mineral deposits.
Without the ability to properly clean any of the machines tested (they are not built for constant brewing, which is needed to properly clean), these are all, to me, disposable machines. That said, if you don't care what your coffee tastes like, if Starbucks is right up your alley or gas station coffee is good enough for you? Any of these will do fine. FWIW.
Tom
This was more intended for entertainment, cottage or trailer machine, quick easy cup at the office or beginner's machine. -
This was more intended for entertainment, cottage or trailer machine, quick easy cup at the office or beginner's machine.
No worries. I just wanted to point out the flaws of said "test", which would naturally skew the results. Bunn makes a decent home or office style automatic drip coffeemaker, FWIW.I also bought the cleaning “pills” for my grinder. Can’t tell much about their effectiveness, but it seems like an easy way to clean a grinder.
Thanks for that. It does amaze me that, just like audio, everything affects everything. I bought some of the Urnex grinder tablets, seen below.
I have had my grinder since August of 2021 and never really considered this a very important aspect. My research always told me that a consistent grind was THE thing to extract those subtle notes and flavors that make up a good cup of Joe. Every once in a while, I would just brush the burr grinder assembly clean and go back to business. Well, this morning, I actually tried these. It was fairly simple and took all of about 5 minutes from start to finish.
I enjoyed one of my 20 ounce brews and made the coffee the same exact way, with the same exact portions of everything and was a little taken back at the change in the flavor. Now, this was not a night and day difference but there was a difference that was definitely detectable. Long story short, it tasted "fresher" and cleaner for some reason. More of the subtle notes came out in the second brew (after cleaning).
I will now add this to my ritual whenever I clean the coffee maker, I will also do the same thing with the burr grinder. Like I said, this is something I never really thought about and I honesty think it wouldn't amount to jack....but to my surprise? It did. Thanks again.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Nice choice of grinders, guys! I will need to research the Zerno and Lagom some more. Will you be keeping the DF 64 as a backup?
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That ECBC site is informative, but they do seem to be completely biased toward drip machines. No espresso machines, no pour over equipment, no cold brew, no french press, no aeropress, etc. There is no 1 correct way to make coffee. It can be greatly enjoyed through any one of those alternate methods.
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Nice choice of grinders, guys! I will need to research the Zerno and Lagom some more. Will you be keeping the DF 64 as a backup?
Yes, the DF64 will be a backup. Honestly, for the price and w/good burrs, I'd recommend it hands down over anything sub $500 and a bit over. Amortized over several years, it's really affordable and is built well enough to last the average Joe for many years.
I still intend to get the Fiorenzato up and running. Just need to figure out how to get a grip on the collar and enough torque without gouging it. I'm fighting the cross thread problem and springs pushing up from the grind area. We're kind of on the prowl for a lake cabin, so one of them will go there if/when we have a second place.
As stangman said, the Zerno is all the rage. They started w/Kickstarter (or similar) and have sold out within minutes. They're on the 5th round of offerings and continue to refine the machine. The cool part is the company/co-owner/designer/engineer, all the same guy, are in the US (Chicago) and it's built here in the US of A. His name is Vel and very active on the Coffee Aficionados Discord site (Zerno thread). He actively engages the coffee community and takes input/design cues from actual users. https://discord.com/channels/726985544038612993/1024033939192557568
Vel's is a true American success story. Part of my attraction to the grinder/company. https://dailycoffeenews.com/2022/09/26/chicago-startup-grinder-maker-zerno-readies-the-high-end-z1/
https://zerno.co/➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
That ECBC site is informative, but they do seem to be completely biased toward drip machines. No espresso machines, no pour over equipment, no cold brew, no french press, no aeropress, etc. There is no 1 correct way to make coffee. It can be greatly enjoyed through any one of those alternate methods.
Agreed. I don't know if they are biased or that they just test automatic drip machines. I personally will not flick my finger under my nose, raising my head up at the same time on any brewing methods. Heck, I can even enjoy a cold brew coffee!
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Many different ways to enjoy coffee (and music reproduction).
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@maxward, @stangman67, anyone else....
Green bean heads-up. Do you guys get the SM's emails?
If you've not compared different harvest processing methods, a cool experiment. It's amazing how the same bean, when dry vs wet processed, can be so different in the cup. Ethiopians are excellent examples of this. Gesha's from South America, a sought after bean know for it's floral characteristics, was a really interesting one I've done.
Latest from SM's and worth grabbing if you want to expand your knowledge/experience.
"The latest entry into our featured coffee sets is the 4 lbs Ethiopia Process Method Set. This set highlights the different flavors that come from the wet and dry process methods, and includes four of our top lots from the current green coffee catalog.
The wet and dry process methods are the two most used means of processing coffee in the world, and each leaves their own unique mark on the cup. From fruit to floral and everything in between, this set is an opportunity to compare how these flavor differences are expressed across four delicious Ethiopian coffees.
If you're looking for more volume, we still offer our 10 lbs "XL" Ethiopia Process Method Set, but for smaller capacity air roasters we think the 4lbs set will be a lot of fun!"
https://www.sweetmarias.com/4-lbs-ethiopia-process-method-set.html➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬ -
Thanks. Yes, and part of my recent order was the 10 lbs XL Ethiopian process method. It will be a couple weeks before I try one of those.
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Thaaat's right. You all just got double-teabagged.
I disabled signatures. -
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Thaaat's right. You all just got double-teabagged.
That's not Tea, that's floor dust sweepings in a sack. -
@JayCee thanks for the suggestion, I’ll add that combo pack to my next order. Roasting time this weekend for my first weekly batch
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Friday night roast complete! I am having way too much fun with this. Need to play with the design on the label a bunch still
2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
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You coffee nerds should seek-out and watch Dangerous Grounds, which was a (sadly) short-lived docu-series where a dude named Todd Carmichael traversed the globe, looking for the absolute best coffee beans he could find for his Philadelphia-based coffee company.
He traveled with a portable, hand-powered, roaster, and (I think) hand-powered grinder, where he would roast, grind, and brew coffee on-the-spot (i.e., on the coffee plantation) to determine if it was worthy of attempting to import the beans into the states (i.e., his coffee company).
It is a very informative and interesting series to watch...whether you like coffee, or not."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
Sounds very interesting, I found it but have to pay for each episode.2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
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https://www.facebook.com/share/r/NzfATkjy247uhzN3/?mibextid=xCPwDs
Okay, that's all I got.
Please return to your previously scheduled threadSal Palooza -
I wonder how many takes the did of that bit?
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Pretty long listen but there's a ton of info about coffee here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWWVNq5GHp4 -
Pretty long listen but there's a ton of info about coffee here.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWWVNq5GHp4
All that effort, and equipment bought/donated by sponsors, and he couldn't get a burr grinder?
For the most part, I really like that guy's channel and have been a subscriber for years. -
@stangman67 Of the one pound bags of Sweet Maria’s coffee I have roasted so far, a winner was the Colombia Inza Cresta El Hato, which is still in stock.
