Hauxon's SRS 1.2TL restoration

13

Comments

  • JayCee
    JayCee Posts: 1,236
    edited September 2019
    Need to add that I have all Sonicap, never used ClarityCap, and can't comment to how they "should" sound with your combo.
    Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends Streamer: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    edited September 2019
    I took a short listening session last night and sat more upright. I heard a perceivable difference in the highs, both tiny bit wider and better sound stage. Listening to Radiohead's Pyramid Song I felt like the piano at the beginning of the song was inside my living room. I played few songs from an album Declaration of Dependance by Kings of Convenience. Great sounding album in general. The first song 24-25 has beautiful soundscape, sounds terrific on my 2B's and did sound equally good from my 1.2TL yesterday. I also played some electronic music, Boards of Canada, Plaid and Cristian Löffler all sound impressive with the 1.2TL. Not sure anymore if I can call them dark, maybe a little layback, easy, effortless smoothness.... I've stopped worrying and started enjoying :smiley:
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

    Video:


    Normal?

    I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,746
    hauxon wrote: »
    I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

    Video:


    Normal?

    I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847

    Not normal. The dimensional woofers will have more excursion due to the c-coil sub-base drive inductors, but all four stereo woofers should be equal. Double check your wiring. The woofers are wired series/parallel to maintain 8 ohms nominal.
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26688.pdf
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26689.pdf
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/



  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    There we might have a hint at why I've felt the bass has been weaker than expected. I did swap the lowest of the 6503 for a 6503 woofer from my SDA 2B. No change and the woofer I pulled from the SRS worked flawlessly in my 2B. There's definitely something not right with the wiring or in the crossover.

    During troubleshooting yesterday I was wondering if this had anything to do with me using one of the original 0.4mH coils. Not likely though since it's in the tweeter crossover part. I did however realize I had not noticed the jumper at E-H!!! There we might have the reason for the "dark" sound.

    I will need to trace my self through everything after work tonight. I won't quit until I'm 100% confident with the speakers and the modification... :smile:
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    Well I didn't forget the E-H jumper! ...maybe I just need to relax... Haha
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 19,224
    edited October 2019
    hauxon wrote: »
    I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

    Video:


    Normal?

    I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847

    Not normal. The dimensional woofers will have more excursion due to the c-coil sub-base drive inductors, but all four stereo woofers should be equal. Double check your wiring. The woofers are wired series/parallel to maintain 8 ohms nominal.
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26688.pdf
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26689.pdf

    Make sure you trace the wires and they are hooked exactly like the links Dave provided. Did you build new wire harnesses ? Something is definitely off somewhere.
  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    Well I did take a look at the wiring. Nothing suspicious that I could find and wiring probably correct too. No corrosion or loose connects. I just unplugged each speaker for inspection and connected again and mounted it back to the cabinet.

    Here's a drawing of the stereo array wiring inside the left speaker. My guess is this is as it should be.
    jxja31kbtqwt.jpg

    I did another video now with a 60Hz-0Hz sweep test tone. Now I recorded using my camera off a tripod. ...and well it does look all right to my eye. I doubt disconnecting the woofers and connecting again really made any difference since they were all snug. Maybe I will buy some good quality speaker wire and do the internal wiring thing just for peace of mind.

    Here's the 60Hz to 0Hz test tone video:

    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • pkquat
    pkquat Posts: 733
    edited October 2019
    I think something us wrong with the crossover and the frequency it is crossing over to the in unison bass. Something is also different between the two videos. I played both at .25 speed.

    In the first video there are times where the right hand drivers don't appear to be moving. About half way through they appear to be out of phase between left and right, and possibly between drivers.*

    In the second video there are times in the beginning where they appear out of phase, but it is a little out of focus. Once it is in focus and at a lower frequency they are all moving the same.

    *The higher frequencies appearing out of phase could also be a video effect. Some of the motion algorithms in phones/cameras can cause distorted images making the phase appear different. If your phone or camera has a high speed / slo-mo mode, I would try that to be sure.

    I would also recommend disconnecting the SDA cable to start. As I remember there will not be any sound from the SDA drivers until lower frequencies when they will all be in unison. According to the SDA handbook the lower frequency crossover is 150Hz. (Vr3 mods handbook mentions other SDA's crossing over between 45 and 60Hz). If it is fine without the SDA cable, but has issues with it connected, it could be that the problem is in the other speaker.

    https://polksda.com/pdfs/SDASRS1-2.pdf
    http://vr3mods.com/uploads/SDA_Handbook_2011_Rev3.pdf
  • westmassguy
    westmassguy Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2019
    pkquat wrote: »
    I think something us wrong with the crossover and the frequency it is crossing over to the in unison bass. Something is also different between the two videos. I played both at .25 speed.

    In the first video there are times where the right hand drivers don't appear to be moving. About half way through they appear to be out of phase between left and right, and possibly between drivers.*

    In the second video there are times in the beginning where they appear out of phase, but it is a little out of focus. Once it is in focus and at a lower frequency they are all moving the same.

    *The higher frequencies appearing out of phase could also be a video effect. Some of the motion algorithms in phones/cameras can cause distorted images making the phase appear different. If your phone or camera has a high speed / slo-mo mode, I would try that to be sure.

    I would also recommend disconnecting the SDA cable to start. As I remember there will not be any sound from the SDA drivers until lower frequencies when they will all be in unison. According to the SDA handbook the lower frequency crossover is 150Hz. (Vr3 mods handbook mentions other SDA's crossing over between 45 and 60Hz). If it is fine without the SDA cable, but has issues with it connected, it could be that the problem is in the other speaker.

    https://polksda.com/pdfs/SDASRS1-2.pdf
    http://vr3mods.com/uploads/SDA_Handbook_2011_Rev3.pdf

    The sub base drive circuit is a 1st order/single component, 6 db per octave filter in the 4th and 5th generation. In theory, the low pass frequency begins at 150 Hz approximately, but really doesn't kick in until the 50-75 Hz range, which explains what is observed.
    BTW, Trey hosts it, by Raife AKA DarqueKnight wrote it.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/



  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    I'm going to pull out the crossovers for inspection after work. If I read the schematics correctly the C1 (13.5uF) and L1 (2.0mH) function as low pass filter for the stereo array. I did position the L1 inductor flat on the crossover board. Although this orientation in relation to the L2 should be all right I have a hunch that I might be having problems because of that so I will fit it like it is on the original crossover and (and drawn on the Gimpod). I will also try measure the capacitance of the two 6.8uF caps to see if they will give me the expected 13.6uF.
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 19,224
    Yes all inductors I know have a lacquer on them so not to short against itself. Removing it allows the solder and solder pad to become one.
    Glad to gear it's better.
  • Wee wanna see the video
    Wee wanna see the video
    Wee wanna see the video
    :);)
  • But what about the videoooooooo?????!?!?!
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 46,114
    Heating inductor wire with a solder gun is not the answer. Two things that are, a solder pot or scraping the varnish off with a razor blade or the like.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 19,224
    I bought my station from

    https://www.circuitspecialists.com/60_Watt_Soldering_Station.html

    I solder at 750° get on and get off. I've had it for 10 yrs and bought different tips that have came in very handy. Not one problem ever customer service has been nothing but professional had i ever had questions. I've always wanted a weller or more expensive station had this one gave up the ghost but I'll more than likely buy another from them as mine has been rock solid.

    In the future I personally sand off the coating down to shining metal. I'm all about clean joint I would not want the enamel compromising my solder joint
  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    The funny thing is that there is no warning or instruction with the inductors or on the Jantzen or HiFiCollective websites. So noobs like me don't have the slightest idea. I've done a few hours of googling looking for what you're supposed to do or how the manufacturer (Jantzen) likes you to do it but can't find anything. Some things I guess must be learned the hard way.
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • JayCee
    JayCee Posts: 1,236
    edited November 2019
    @hauxon, great troubleshooting and persistence. I recently had a bad firmware load on my PS Audio DAC and knew something was off. Tried to convince myself it was just a different sound than I was used to but kept coming back to the voice in my head saying BS. Troubleshooting, eliminating variables and persistence resulted in knowing immediately when the sound was correct.

    I have the same speakers you do, upgraded, too, and likely believe, you'll be happy for years to come. Well done and congrats on finally realizing what you've expected. Nice to have witnessed (read) your journey....but know you still have room to exceed your expectations.

    :wink:
    Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends Streamer: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 3,621
    Glad to hear persistence prevailed!
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Belles 350A Reference modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January.

    by Dr. Sardonicus
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,602
    A lighter will remove the coating, but leaves a bit of residue, you can then sand it a bit also.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,640
    edited November 2019
    hauxon wrote: »
    The funny thing is that there is no warning or instruction with the inductors or on the Jantzen or HiFiCollective websites.

    This is what I did:

    "After cutting, I was faced with the tedious task of removing the orange polyamide insulation. For larger, stiffer wire, I would just grind off the insulation with a Dremel sanding wheel. For delicate, hair-thin (0.016" diameter) 26 gauge wire, I carefully scraped off the insulation with a sharp new box cutter razor blade. The wire end was laid on the back of a metal baking sheet. The process was complicated due to the small size of the wire and the fact that the brownish-orange insulation color was close to the color of the copper wire. I used an 8X magnifying lens to check my progress after each scrape."

    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/132437/upgrade-high-frequency-inductors-for-the-sda-srs-1-2tl/p1

    I now have a solder pot and use it to remove tough wire coatings. This is the one I have:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007S21Z6Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • Psssssst
    Ay gringo
    Still waiting for the video okay?? :p;)
  • hauxon
    hauxon Posts: 150
    Hahaha! I just might some day in 2020! :D
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | Cambridge Audio Azur 851W | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,438
    What an impressive effort.

    CONGRATS!!!!
  • hauxon wrote: »
    Hahaha! I just might some day in 2020! :D

    Promises
    Promises
    YOU MEN! :(;)
  • Re: Westmassguy's photo of his MDF support for the Gimpod XO board. (1) Where did you get the standoffs, and have you inserted some sort of cylindrical holders for the standoffs into the MDF board? (2) What are the two black strips? Two-sided tape? Dynamat or some other vibration damper? (3) Why not use all eight holes which Gimpod provides for standoffs? TIA.
  • Hi there : my name is Tony and I am wondering if you still make these boards for Polk audio 1.2 TL ?
    I would love a pair and possibly someone who can make me a pair of crossovers for me . I can't get ahold of anyone who has done this before. Perhaps they all died. After all their posts or threads are from 2002-2012, eight years ago.
    All the polkie polkites have so much knowledge but l cant get a set of boards and Larry's rings,can't get ahold of him as well. I would like Larry's rings but perhaps he too has since passed . I even called express PCB.com . They also stated that they have no record of a order for Polk audio 1.2 TL . They stated that I would need a concent from the person who has made a order ,the name it was under and order#. So here l am at a dead end. I should have done this when I had first thought of it . If anyone can help a old polkie polkites point me in the right direction. I would even give you a iMogie kiss even though chances are more likely that you are a guy as I. No I am not **** but Shure would be happy of my 1.2 tl's putting out max potential that 1.2 TL deserve to sound. Like Mathew Polk himself would have done if he could have back then with materials and knowledge now.
    Thanks
    Lost polkie polkite looking for help.
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 11,783
    Hi there : my name is Tony and I am wondering if you still make these boards for Polk audio 1.2 TL ?
    I would love a pair and possibly someone who can make me a pair of crossovers for me . I can't get ahold of anyone who has done this before. Perhaps they all died. After all their posts or threads are from 2002-2012, eight years ago.
    All the polkie polkites have so much knowledge but l cant get a set of boards and Larry's rings,can't get ahold of him as well. I would like Larry's rings but perhaps he too has since passed . I even called express PCB.com . They also stated that they have no record of a order for Polk audio 1.2 TL . They stated that I would need a concent from the person who has made a order ,the name it was under and order#. So here l am at a dead end. I should have done this when I had first thought of it . If anyone can help a old polkie polkites point me in the right direction. I would even give you a iMogie kiss even though chances are more likely that you are a guy as I. No I am not **** but Shure would be happy of my 1.2 tl's putting out max potential that 1.2 TL deserve to sound. Like Mathew Polk himself would have done if he could have back then with materials and knowledge now.
    Thanks
    Lost polkie polkite looking for help.

    @westmassguy send him a PM. He is the seller/distributor for Gimpods boards. There are only a few left and will not be reproduced
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a