Hauxon's SRS 1.2TL restoration

JayCee

Need to add that I have all Sonicap, never used ClarityCap, and can't comment to how they "should" sound with your combo.

hauxon

I took a short listening session last night and sat more upright. I heard a perceivable difference in the highs, both tiny bit wider and better sound stage. Listening to Radiohead's Pyramid Song I felt like the piano at the beginning of the song was inside my living room. I played few songs from an album Declaration of Dependance by Kings of Convenience. Great sounding album in general. The first song 24-25 has beautiful soundscape, sounds terrific on my 2B's and did sound equally good from my 1.2TL yesterday. I also played some electronic music, Boards of Canada, Plaid and Cristian Löffler all sound impressive with the 1.2TL. Not sure anymore if I can call them dark, maybe a little layback, easy, effortless smoothness.... I've stopped worrying and started enjoying

hauxon

I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko6VRK1Mb88&feature=youtu.be

Normal?

I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847

westmassguy

hauxon wrote: »

I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko6VRK1Mb88&feature=youtu.be

Normal?

I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847

Not normal. The dimensional woofers will have more excursion due to the c-coil sub-base drive inductors, but all four stereo woofers should be equal. Double check your wiring. The woofers are wired series/parallel to maintain 8 ohms nominal.
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26688.pdf
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26689.pdf

hauxon

There we might have a hint at why I've felt the bass has been weaker than expected. I did swap the lowest of the 6503 for a 6503 woofer from my SDA 2B. No change and the woofer I pulled from the SRS worked flawlessly in my 2B. There's definitely something not right with the wiring or in the crossover.

During troubleshooting yesterday I was wondering if this had anything to do with me using one of the original 0.4mH coils. Not likely though since it's in the tweeter crossover part. I did however realize I had not noticed the jumper at E-H!!! There we might have the reason for the "dark" sound.

I will need to trace my self through everything after work tonight. I won't quit until I'm 100% confident with the speakers and the modification...

hauxon

Well I didn't forget the E-H jumper! ...maybe I just need to relax... Haha

pitdogg2

westmassguy wrote: »

hauxon wrote: »

I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko6VRK1Mb88&feature=youtu.be

Normal?

I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847

Not normal. The dimensional woofers will have more excursion due to the c-coil sub-base drive inductors, but all four stereo woofers should be equal. Double check your wiring. The woofers are wired series/parallel to maintain 8 ohms nominal.
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26688.pdf
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26689.pdf

Make sure you trace the wires and they are hooked exactly like the links Dave provided. Did you build new wire harnesses ? Something is definitely off somewhere.

hauxon

Well I did take a look at the wiring. Nothing suspicious that I could find and wiring probably correct too. No corrosion or loose connects. I just unplugged each speaker for inspection and connected again and mounted it back to the cabinet.

Here's a drawing of the stereo array wiring inside the left speaker. My guess is this is as it should be.


I did another video now with a 60Hz-0Hz sweep test tone. Now I recorded using my camera off a tripod. ...and well it does look all right to my eye. I doubt disconnecting the woofers and connecting again really made any difference since they were all snug. Maybe I will buy some good quality speaker wire and do the internal wiring thing just for peace of mind.

Here's the 60Hz to 0Hz test tone video:
https://youtu.be/TXjEsqMcDhU

pkquat

I think something us wrong with the crossover and the frequency it is crossing over to the in unison bass. Something is also different between the two videos. I played both at .25 speed.

In the first video there are times where the right hand drivers don't appear to be moving. About half way through they appear to be out of phase between left and right, and possibly between drivers.*

In the second video there are times in the beginning where they appear out of phase, but it is a little out of focus. Once it is in focus and at a lower frequency they are all moving the same.

*The higher frequencies appearing out of phase could also be a video effect. Some of the motion algorithms in phones/cameras can cause distorted images making the phase appear different. If your phone or camera has a high speed / slo-mo mode, I would try that to be sure.

I would also recommend disconnecting the SDA cable to start. As I remember there will not be any sound from the SDA drivers until lower frequencies when they will all be in unison. According to the SDA handbook the lower frequency crossover is 150Hz. (Vr3 mods handbook mentions other SDA's crossing over between 45 and 60Hz). If it is fine without the SDA cable, but has issues with it connected, it could be that the problem is in the other speaker.

https://polksda.com/pdfs/SDASRS1-2.pdf
http://vr3mods.com/uploads/SDA_Handbook_2011_Rev3.pdf

westmassguy

pkquat wrote: »

I think something us wrong with the crossover and the frequency it is crossing over to the in unison bass. Something is also different between the two videos. I played both at .25 speed.

In the first video there are times where the right hand drivers don't appear to be moving. About half way through they appear to be out of phase between left and right, and possibly between drivers.*

In the second video there are times in the beginning where they appear out of phase, but it is a little out of focus. Once it is in focus and at a lower frequency they are all moving the same.

*The higher frequencies appearing out of phase could also be a video effect. Some of the motion algorithms in phones/cameras can cause distorted images making the phase appear different. If your phone or camera has a high speed / slo-mo mode, I would try that to be sure.

I would also recommend disconnecting the SDA cable to start. As I remember there will not be any sound from the SDA drivers until lower frequencies when they will all be in unison. According to the SDA handbook the lower frequency crossover is 150Hz. (Vr3 mods handbook mentions other SDA's crossing over between 45 and 60Hz). If it is fine without the SDA cable, but has issues with it connected, it could be that the problem is in the other speaker.

https://polksda.com/pdfs/SDASRS1-2.pdf
http://vr3mods.com/uploads/SDA_Handbook_2011_Rev3.pdf

The sub base drive circuit is a 1st order/single component, 6 db per octave filter in the 4th and 5th generation. In theory, the low pass frequency begins at 150 Hz approximately, but really doesn't kick in until the 50-75 Hz range, which explains what is observed.
BTW, Trey hosts it, by Raife AKA DarqueKnight wrote it.

hauxon

I'm going to pull out the crossovers for inspection after work. If I read the schematics correctly the C1 (13.5uF) and L1 (2.0mH) function as low pass filter for the stereo array. I did position the L1 inductor flat on the crossover board. Although this orientation in relation to the L2 should be all right I have a hunch that I might be having problems because of that so I will fit it like it is on the original crossover and (and drawn on the Gimpod). I will also try measure the capacitance of the two 6.8uF caps to see if they will give me the expected 13.6uF.

hauxon

Status update. Both arrays seem to be in sync now. I desoldered the L1 2mH coils and realigned them so they would not be lying flat on the IC board (and perpendicular to the L2 coil). I also did resolder the 16mH coils after rubbing the leads with fine grit sandpaper. I read somewhere that there might be a coating on the leads than needs to be rubbed off for better connection. I also soaked the stranded wire with solder and the connection as a whole. Bass much better and the speakers finally don't need support from a sub to sound full. Video comes later.

pitdogg2

Yes all inductors I know have a lacquer on them so not to short against itself. Removing it allows the solder and solder pad to become one.
Glad to gear it's better.

honestaquarian

Wee wanna see the video
Wee wanna see the video
Wee wanna see the video

hauxon

One thing to add regarding the crossover build. It's a while since I finished the crossover so I've just been listening and watching TV. While listening I started to feel the sound was too much on the right, especially with spoken male dialog or singing, the image was always tad right. Other than that generally the sound was good and image where it should be. I ran through the internal wiring detaching each woofer (all 16) to seen if something had become lose and found nothing wrong. So I decided to swap the crossovers and voila! the image was now left oriented. I pulled the crossover for inspection, nothing everything where it should be and soldering looked good. I to resolder everything in the mid/bass section of the crossover. No success! Being a bit tired I decided to rest it for a while and not bother you guys with it.

New few weeks later I decided it was time to take another look into it. The problem was always on the back of my head. The only way to solve this was what I apply to problems at work, divide and conquer, simplify until I could isolate the failure. I still have the old crossovers so I plugged it in and no problem there. Wiring ruled out. I downloaded VituixCAD crossover design software tool and drew up the bass part of the crossover. Since the problem occurred within the range of the human voice I knew it was in the 100 Hz to 250 Hz range. With testing different values I could rule out the capacitors so the problem must be with the 2mH inductor. I disconnected the interconnection cable and biwire cords to make it easier to hear the difference. That way I could put my ear against the (inner) woofers and easily hear that the upper bass / low midrange was cut off. I pulled the crossover to inspect again. Long inspection with a magnifying glass ...and, nothing I could see.

I've been doing a little research regarding the coating Jantzen puts on the big 16 mH inductor. Seem the connection leads need to be scraped or the coating burt off for proper connection. I had used sandpaper on the 16 mH inductor so I was not too worried the problem was there. The 16mH is connected to the dimensional array on the other side and should not affect the stereo array. The problem did remain after disconnecting the interconnect cable. I knew the inductor was the problem. However the inductor is just a bunch of rolled up wire ..so what could be wrong with the inductor who looked perfect and was positioned on the crossover board as is should. I inspected the under side of the crossover again examining the 2mH connections soldering. One of the wires was a bit longer than the other so the solder didn't cover the end where I cut the wire like on the other side. ..could it be the coating/enamel wasn't burnt off?? My soldering iron is an old 25W Weller, maybe it just does not get hot enough to burn the coating off?? So I desoldered the inductor and cut the wire off short enough to to the solder would cover the end of the wires. And voila! I almost got a tear in my eye when I connected it back and problem solved.

And wow balanced the speaker sound all of a sudden! I just sat down for 2 hours and listened to many of my favorite tracks. So finally my SRS 1.2TL sound like the high-end loudspeakers they are, so smooth, so powerful.

I guess we can finally graduate the crossover. I will buy a hotter soldering station (probably Hakko 88) in the near future an resolder all the inductors for ease of the mind. ..well I also have a single inductor from the each of old crossover in my new one I forgot to order. But sound wise it's close to as good as it will get.

I will just listen and enjoy for now. The next improvements will be dampening. I'm delaying the tweeters until next year since I have to spend some on dental repairs, implants and crowns in the next few months. Will dig up this thread and post when something is new.

Best,
Hrannar

honestaquarian

But what about the videoooooooo?????!?!?!

F1nut

Heating inductor wire with a solder gun is not the answer. Two things that are, a solder pot or scraping the varnish off with a razor blade or the like.

pitdogg2

I bought my station from

https://www.circuitspecialists.com/60_Watt_Soldering_Station.html

I solder at 750° get on and get off. I've had it for 10 yrs and bought different tips that have came in very handy. Not one problem ever customer service has been nothing but professional had i ever had questions. I've always wanted a weller or more expensive station had this one gave up the ghost but I'll more than likely buy another from them as mine has been rock solid.

In the future I personally sand off the coating down to shining metal. I'm all about clean joint I would not want the enamel compromising my solder joint

hauxon

The funny thing is that there is no warning or instruction with the inductors or on the Jantzen or HiFiCollective websites. So noobs like me don't have the slightest idea. I've done a few hours of googling looking for what you're supposed to do or how the manufacturer (Jantzen) likes you to do it but can't find anything. Some things I guess must be learned the hard way.

JayCee

@hauxon, great troubleshooting and persistence. I recently had a bad firmware load on my PS Audio DAC and knew something was off. Tried to convince myself it was just a different sound than I was used to but kept coming back to the voice in my head saying BS. Troubleshooting, eliminating variables and persistence resulted in knowing immediately when the sound was correct.

I have the same speakers you do, upgraded, too, and likely believe, you'll be happy for years to come. Well done and congrats on finally realizing what you've expected. Nice to have witnessed (read) your journey....but know you still have room to exceed your expectations.

audioluvr

Glad to hear persistence prevailed!

K_M

A lighter will remove the coating, but leaves a bit of residue, you can then sand it a bit also.

DarqueKnight

hauxon wrote: »

The funny thing is that there is no warning or instruction with the inductors or on the Jantzen or HiFiCollective websites.

This is what I did:

"After cutting, I was faced with the tedious task of removing the orange polyamide insulation. For larger, stiffer wire, I would just grind off the insulation with a Dremel sanding wheel. For delicate, hair-thin (0.016" diameter) 26 gauge wire, I carefully scraped off the insulation with a sharp new box cutter razor blade. The wire end was laid on the back of a metal baking sheet. The process was complicated due to the small size of the wire and the fact that the brownish-orange insulation color was close to the color of the copper wire. I used an 8X magnifying lens to check my progress after each scrape."

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/132437/upgrade-high-frequency-inductors-for-the-sda-srs-1-2tl/p1

I now have a solder pot and use it to remove tough wire coatings. This is the one I have:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007S21Z6Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

honestaquarian

Psssssst
Ay gringo
Still waiting for the video okay??

hauxon

Hahaha! I just might some day in 2020!

oldrocker

What an impressive effort.

CONGRATS!!!!

honestaquarian

hauxon wrote: »

Hahaha! I just might some day in 2020!

Promises
Promises
YOU MEN!

crcolby

Re: Westmassguy's photo of his MDF support for the Gimpod XO board. (1) Where did you get the standoffs, and have you inserted some sort of cylindrical holders for the standoffs into the MDF board? (2) What are the two black strips? Two-sided tape? Dynamat or some other vibration damper? (3) Why not use all eight holes which Gimpod provides for standoffs? TIA.

nancyisthebesttony

Hi there : my name is Tony and I am wondering if you still make these boards for Polk audio 1.2 TL ?
I would love a pair and possibly someone who can make me a pair of crossovers for me . I can't get ahold of anyone who has done this before. Perhaps they all died. After all their posts or threads are from 2002-2012, eight years ago.
All the polkie polkites have so much knowledge but l cant get a set of boards and Larry's rings,can't get ahold of him as well. I would like Larry's rings but perhaps he too has since passed . I even called express PCB.com . They also stated that they have no record of a order for Polk audio 1.2 TL . They stated that I would need a concent from the person who has made a order ,the name it was under and order#. So here l am at a dead end. I should have done this when I had first thought of it . If anyone can help a old polkie polkites point me in the right direction. I would even give you a iMogie kiss even though chances are more likely that you are a guy as I. No I am not **** but Shure would be happy of my 1.2 tl's putting out max potential that 1.2 TL deserve to sound. Like Mathew Polk himself would have done if he could have back then with materials and knowledge now.
Thanks
Lost polkie polkite looking for help.

txcoastal1

nancyisthebesttony wrote: »

Hi there : my name is Tony and I am wondering if you still make these boards for Polk audio 1.2 TL ?
I would love a pair and possibly someone who can make me a pair of crossovers for me . I can't get ahold of anyone who has done this before. Perhaps they all died. After all their posts or threads are from 2002-2012, eight years ago.
All the polkie polkites have so much knowledge but l cant get a set of boards and Larry's rings,can't get ahold of him as well. I would like Larry's rings but perhaps he too has since passed . I even called express PCB.com . They also stated that they have no record of a order for Polk audio 1.2 TL . They stated that I would need a concent from the person who has made a order ,the name it was under and order#. So here l am at a dead end. I should have done this when I had first thought of it . If anyone can help a old polkie polkites point me in the right direction. I would even give you a iMogie kiss even though chances are more likely that you are a guy as I. No I am not **** but Shure would be happy of my 1.2 tl's putting out max potential that 1.2 TL deserve to sound. Like Mathew Polk himself would have done if he could have back then with materials and knowledge now.
Thanks
Lost polkie polkite looking for help.

@westmassguy send him a PM. He is the seller/distributor for Gimpods boards. There are only a few left and will not be reproduced