Hauxon's SRS 1.2TL restoration

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Comments

  • JayCeeJayCee Posts: 610
    edited September 26
    Need to add that I have all Sonicap, never used ClarityCap, and can't comment to how they "should" sound with your combo.
    Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, Perfectwave DirectStream Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" Power Conditioner: Core Power Technologies EQUI=CORE 1800 Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends FLAC Streamer: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
  • hauxonhauxon Posts: 135
    edited September 27
    I took a short listening session last night and sat more upright. I heard a perceivable difference in the highs, both tiny bit wider and better sound stage. Listening to Radiohead's Pyramid Song I felt like the piano at the beginning of the song was inside my living room. I played few songs from an album Declaration of Dependance by Kings of Convenience. Great sounding album in general. The first song 24-25 has beautiful soundscape, sounds terrific on my 2B's and did sound equally good from my 1.2TL yesterday. I also played some electronic music, Boards of Canada, Plaid and Cristian Löffler all sound impressive with the 1.2TL. Not sure anymore if I can call them dark, maybe a little layback, easy, effortless smoothness.... I've stopped worrying and started enjoying :smiley:
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | NAD C272 power amp | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • hauxonhauxon Posts: 135
    I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

    Video:


    Normal?

    I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | NAD C272 power amp | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,448
    hauxon wrote: »
    I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

    Video:


    Normal?

    I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847

    Not normal. The dimensional woofers will have more excursion due to the c-coil sub-base drive inductors, but all four stereo woofers should be equal. Double check your wiring. The woofers are wired series/parallel to maintain 8 ohms nominal.
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26688.pdf
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26689.pdf
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Exclusive Distributor of Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • hauxonhauxon Posts: 135
    There we might have a hint at why I've felt the bass has been weaker than expected. I did swap the lowest of the 6503 for a 6503 woofer from my SDA 2B. No change and the woofer I pulled from the SRS worked flawlessly in my 2B. There's definitely something not right with the wiring or in the crossover.

    During troubleshooting yesterday I was wondering if this had anything to do with me using one of the original 0.4mH coils. Not likely though since it's in the tweeter crossover part. I did however realize I had not noticed the jumper at E-H!!! There we might have the reason for the "dark" sound.

    I will need to trace my self through everything after work tonight. I won't quit until I'm 100% confident with the speakers and the modification... :smile:
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | NAD C272 power amp | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • hauxonhauxon Posts: 135
    Well I didn't forget the E-H jumper! ...maybe I just need to relax... Haha
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | NAD C272 power amp | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,730
    edited October 7
    hauxon wrote: »
    I did a test today and noticed something interesting. If I play a low frequency note, low enough so I can easily see the woofer cone excursion I noticed the dimensional array (outer row) seem to receive much more powerful signal. While the SDA (outer) speaker array thumps in and out the inner array barely moves. This is the same on both speakers. I also found that the of the inner array the lower 2 speakers move the least.

    Video:


    Normal?

    I would appreciate it if someone would do a little test to see if their 1.2TL behaves the same. Tidal test track here: https://tidal.com/browse/track/3740847

    Not normal. The dimensional woofers will have more excursion due to the c-coil sub-base drive inductors, but all four stereo woofers should be equal. Double check your wiring. The woofers are wired series/parallel to maintain 8 ohms nominal.
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26688.pdf
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021930/uploads/attachments/1/8/5/1/1/26689.pdf

    Make sure you trace the wires and they are hooked exactly like the links Dave provided. Did you build new wire harnesses ? Something is definitely off somewhere.
  • hauxonhauxon Posts: 135
    Well I did take a look at the wiring. Nothing suspicious that I could find and wiring probably correct too. No corrosion or loose connects. I just unplugged each speaker for inspection and connected again and mounted it back to the cabinet.

    Here's a drawing of the stereo array wiring inside the left speaker. My guess is this is as it should be.
    jxja31kbtqwt.jpg

    I did another video now with a 60Hz-0Hz sweep test tone. Now I recorded using my camera off a tripod. ...and well it does look all right to my eye. I doubt disconnecting the woofers and connecting again really made any difference since they were all snug. Maybe I will buy some good quality speaker wire and do the internal wiring thing just for peace of mind.

    Here's the 60Hz to 0Hz test tone video:

    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | NAD C272 power amp | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • pkquatpkquat Posts: 677
    edited October 8
    I think something us wrong with the crossover and the frequency it is crossing over to the in unison bass. Something is also different between the two videos. I played both at .25 speed.

    In the first video there are times where the right hand drivers don't appear to be moving. About half way through they appear to be out of phase between left and right, and possibly between drivers.*

    In the second video there are times in the beginning where they appear out of phase, but it is a little out of focus. Once it is in focus and at a lower frequency they are all moving the same.

    *The higher frequencies appearing out of phase could also be a video effect. Some of the motion algorithms in phones/cameras can cause distorted images making the phase appear different. If your phone or camera has a high speed / slo-mo mode, I would try that to be sure.

    I would also recommend disconnecting the SDA cable to start. As I remember there will not be any sound from the SDA drivers until lower frequencies when they will all be in unison. According to the SDA handbook the lower frequency crossover is 150Hz. (Vr3 mods handbook mentions other SDA's crossing over between 45 and 60Hz). If it is fine without the SDA cable, but has issues with it connected, it could be that the problem is in the other speaker.

    https://polksda.com/pdfs/SDASRS1-2.pdf
    http://vr3mods.com/uploads/SDA_Handbook_2011_Rev3.pdf
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,448
    edited October 9
    pkquat wrote: »
    I think something us wrong with the crossover and the frequency it is crossing over to the in unison bass. Something is also different between the two videos. I played both at .25 speed.

    In the first video there are times where the right hand drivers don't appear to be moving. About half way through they appear to be out of phase between left and right, and possibly between drivers.*

    In the second video there are times in the beginning where they appear out of phase, but it is a little out of focus. Once it is in focus and at a lower frequency they are all moving the same.

    *The higher frequencies appearing out of phase could also be a video effect. Some of the motion algorithms in phones/cameras can cause distorted images making the phase appear different. If your phone or camera has a high speed / slo-mo mode, I would try that to be sure.

    I would also recommend disconnecting the SDA cable to start. As I remember there will not be any sound from the SDA drivers until lower frequencies when they will all be in unison. According to the SDA handbook the lower frequency crossover is 150Hz. (Vr3 mods handbook mentions other SDA's crossing over between 45 and 60Hz). If it is fine without the SDA cable, but has issues with it connected, it could be that the problem is in the other speaker.

    https://polksda.com/pdfs/SDASRS1-2.pdf
    http://vr3mods.com/uploads/SDA_Handbook_2011_Rev3.pdf

    The sub base drive circuit is a 1st order/single component, 6 db per octave filter in the 4th and 5th generation. In theory, the low pass frequency begins at 150 Hz approximately, but really doesn't kick in until the 50-75 Hz range, which explains what is observed.
    BTW, Trey hosts it, by Raife AKA DarqueKnight wrote it.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver C-500

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Exclusive Distributor of Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • hauxonhauxon Posts: 135
    I'm going to pull out the crossovers for inspection after work. If I read the schematics correctly the C1 (13.5uF) and L1 (2.0mH) function as low pass filter for the stereo array. I did position the L1 inductor flat on the crossover board. Although this orientation in relation to the L2 should be all right I have a hunch that I might be having problems because of that so I will fit it like it is on the original crossover and (and drawn on the Gimpod). I will also try measure the capacitance of the two 6.8uF caps to see if they will give me the expected 13.6uF.
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | NAD C272 power amp | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,730
    Yes all inductors I know have a lacquer on them so not to short against itself. Removing it allows the solder and solder pad to become one.
    Glad to gear it's better.
  • honestaquarianhonestaquarian Posts: 2,509
    Wee wanna see the video
    Wee wanna see the video
    Wee wanna see the video
    :) ;)
    Living room Home theater: Upgrade Company modified Onkyo PR-SC5509,Sunfire Cinema grand Signature 5 channel amp(1st gen),Carver TFM-45,Carver M-400a,Panasonic TC-P50ST60 50" Plasma(last gen before Plasma production stopped)Pioneer Elite DVL-91,Meridian 519 Dolby AC-3 RF Demodulator,Oppo Digital UDP-205,TiVo Bolt VOX,Nakamich BX-300,Technics SL-1200MKII,Shure V15 Type VxMR cartridge,Polk SDA-SRS 3.1 TL(with RD-0198 tweeters, upgraded with Larry's rings, black hole5,an Avel-Lindberg 1000VA isolation transformer, VR3 customer crossovers and internal wiring),Polk CS-1000P(with SL-6506 tweeter),Polk Monitor 5jr(with RD-0194 tweeters),Polk RT-35i (1),Polk Mini Monitors,Polk PSW150(4)Monster Power HTPS 7000 MKII Signature series,Monster Power AVS 2000 Signature Series,Various MIT,Monster,Upgrade Company and Belden interconnect,power,HDMI,Coax and Toslink Digital and speaker cables.

    Bedroom 2 channel system:Integra DTM 40.4,Nakamichi BX-100,TiVo mini,Musical Fidelity X-LPS,X-PSU,Carver TFM-25,Sony KV-34XBR970(last of the widescreen tube sets before production stopped)Technics SL-1200MKII,Shure V15 Type V MR cartridge,Polk RT-55(with SL-6506 tweeters),Polk PSW-200 in plexiglass(2),Sony Playstation 3 slim.Monster Power HTPS-7000,Monster AVS-2000, PowerVarious Kimber,Audioquest and MIT interconnects and speaker cables.
  • honestaquarianhonestaquarian Posts: 2,509
    But what about the videoooooooo?????!?!?!
    Living room Home theater: Upgrade Company modified Onkyo PR-SC5509,Sunfire Cinema grand Signature 5 channel amp(1st gen),Carver TFM-45,Carver M-400a,Panasonic TC-P50ST60 50" Plasma(last gen before Plasma production stopped)Pioneer Elite DVL-91,Meridian 519 Dolby AC-3 RF Demodulator,Oppo Digital UDP-205,TiVo Bolt VOX,Nakamich BX-300,Technics SL-1200MKII,Shure V15 Type VxMR cartridge,Polk SDA-SRS 3.1 TL(with RD-0198 tweeters, upgraded with Larry's rings, black hole5,an Avel-Lindberg 1000VA isolation transformer, VR3 customer crossovers and internal wiring),Polk CS-1000P(with SL-6506 tweeter),Polk Monitor 5jr(with RD-0194 tweeters),Polk RT-35i (1),Polk Mini Monitors,Polk PSW150(4)Monster Power HTPS 7000 MKII Signature series,Monster Power AVS 2000 Signature Series,Various MIT,Monster,Upgrade Company and Belden interconnect,power,HDMI,Coax and Toslink Digital and speaker cables.

    Bedroom 2 channel system:Integra DTM 40.4,Nakamichi BX-100,TiVo mini,Musical Fidelity X-LPS,X-PSU,Carver TFM-25,Sony KV-34XBR970(last of the widescreen tube sets before production stopped)Technics SL-1200MKII,Shure V15 Type V MR cartridge,Polk RT-55(with SL-6506 tweeters),Polk PSW-200 in plexiglass(2),Sony Playstation 3 slim.Monster Power HTPS-7000,Monster AVS-2000, PowerVarious Kimber,Audioquest and MIT interconnects and speaker cables.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,966
    Heating inductor wire with a solder gun is not the answer. Two things that are, a solder pot or scraping the varnish off with a razor blade or the like.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,730
    I bought my station from

    https://www.circuitspecialists.com/60_Watt_Soldering_Station.html

    I solder at 750° get on and get off. I've had it for 10 yrs and bought different tips that have came in very handy. Not one problem ever customer service has been nothing but professional had i ever had questions. I've always wanted a weller or more expensive station had this one gave up the ghost but I'll more than likely buy another from them as mine has been rock solid.

    In the future I personally sand off the coating down to shining metal. I'm all about clean joint I would not want the enamel compromising my solder joint
  • hauxonhauxon Posts: 135
    The funny thing is that there is no warning or instruction with the inductors or on the Jantzen or HiFiCollective websites. So noobs like me don't have the slightest idea. I've done a few hours of googling looking for what you're supposed to do or how the manufacturer (Jantzen) likes you to do it but can't find anything. Some things I guess must be learned the hard way.
    SRS 1.2 TL | SDA 2B Studio TL | NAD M51 preamp/dac | NAD C272 power amp | Chromecast Audio | RoPieee Roon Raspberry Pi endpoint
  • JayCeeJayCee Posts: 610
    edited November 3
    @hauxon, great troubleshooting and persistence. I recently had a bad firmware load on my PS Audio DAC and knew something was off. Tried to convince myself it was just a different sound than I was used to but kept coming back to the voice in my head saying BS. Troubleshooting, eliminating variables and persistence resulted in knowing immediately when the sound was correct.

    I have the same speakers you do, upgraded, too, and likely believe, you'll be happy for years to come. Well done and congrats on finally realizing what you've expected. Nice to have witnessed (read) your journey....but know you still have room to exceed your expectations.

    :wink:
    Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, Perfectwave DirectStream Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" Power Conditioner: Core Power Technologies EQUI=CORE 1800 Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends FLAC Streamer: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 1,379
    Glad to hear persistence prevailed!
    Home System:
    SDA 1C's - Full mod with the help by Dave...
    1000 Va Dreadnought- w/ WireWorld Mini-Eclipse cables
    WireWorld Mini-Eclipse 7 speaker cables
    WireWorld Silver Eclipse IC's
    Cambridge Audio Azur 851N - DAC/Streamer
    B&K Reference 50 Pre/Pro
    B&K M200 Sonata Monoblocks
    BLE-Design 16mm Power Cables
    Denon DVD 2900

    Barn system:
    SDA SRS 2.3's Full mod done by myself
    Carver C-1 pre
    Carver M1.5t
    BluDenso - Bluetooth receiver/DAC
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,520
    A lighter will remove the coating, but leaves a bit of residue, you can then sand it a bit also.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,603
    edited November 4
    hauxon wrote: »
    The funny thing is that there is no warning or instruction with the inductors or on the Jantzen or HiFiCollective websites.

    This is what I did:

    "After cutting, I was faced with the tedious task of removing the orange polyamide insulation. For larger, stiffer wire, I would just grind off the insulation with a Dremel sanding wheel. For delicate, hair-thin (0.016" diameter) 26 gauge wire, I carefully scraped off the insulation with a sharp new box cutter razor blade. The wire end was laid on the back of a metal baking sheet. The process was complicated due to the small size of the wire and the fact that the brownish-orange insulation color was close to the color of the copper wire. I used an 8X magnifying lens to check my progress after each scrape."

    https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/132437/upgrade-high-frequency-inductors-for-the-sda-srs-1-2tl/p1

    I now have a solder pot and use it to remove tough wire coatings. This is the one I have:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007S21Z6Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
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