Bi-Wiring, what exactly is it doing?
Comments
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The point is one doesn't have enough time to try so many different permutations and combinations of all the different cables out there - and to what end?
No time huh ? In the same amount of time it takes you to post on this forum, you could be trying at least "some" permutations.
If we were to solely place all our eggs in the one basket of science and education, we would be disappointed at how wrong both can be about soo many things. Science and education both require discovery, do they not ? You don't discover jack by sitting on the couch not trying anything.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
so how do you define "negative impact"?There is One thing that keeps coming back, from my years in engineering and design.
It can not be disputed and makes total sense.
Without going into deep electronics and circuity analysis, the ultimate goal of ANY conductor, is zero negative impact.
Therefore in design and engineering, the "Perfect theoretical" cable would be literally nothing.
It would have zero impact on the signal, and no degradation on the signal. Its inclusion would literally change nothing in the circuit.
If the goal is to get to "No cable" at all, it is very easy to come close to that.
MANY and even MOST cables meet that simple goal.
is this to mean any effect aside from pure transmission of the output signal without loss or degradation, or does this also include any coloring or other perceived characteristic attributed to a cable?
I'm a cable skeptic, however, since one can only gain so much from reading posts and opinions, I'm open to experimentation for myself at this point about 18 months in, and have an evaluation underway.That is exactly right. The claims that cables improve the sound from their equipment are flat out wrong. Those claims are a result of the marketing "education" and not real science and engineering. Cables are interconnecting conductors that should do no harm.
I see that there are some RLC networks that are built into some audio cables, along with a lot of pseudoscience marketing to justify an exorbitant cost. There is no need to use such components in cables to get proper audio signal transfer.
what do these RLC networks do in audio cables, and why would it be undesirable?
Post edited by msg onI disabled signatures. -
Cables should NOT be used as tone controls.
That notion falls flat on its face once one realizes that EVERY piece of gear (yes, cables are gear) are a tone control in themselves because each piece has its own tone. Anyone that thinks the signal gets passed from start to finish unmolested is in denial. Your speakers are tone controls too.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
That is exactly right. The claims that cables improve the sound from their equipment are flat out wrong. Those claims are a result of the marketing "education" and not real science and engineering. Cables are interconnecting conductors that should do no harm.
Because you are so categorical in your conviction that you are right that it is marketing hype and marketing pseudo-education that has led so many of us down the "primrose path" of foolhardiness which says that cables make a difference, then please explain to me and, more important, to my wife why we have heard very significant differences in various cables that we have used.
I HAVE READ VIRTUALLY NO MARKETING LITERATURE ABOUT CABLES, AND I ASSURE YOU THAT MY WIFE HAS READ NONE, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO.
I would like your scientific explanation of that simple fact.
Thanks.Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.
Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One. -
Don't you know? It's PLACEBO!
Oh, goodness, I forgot that! Please forgive me!
PS: In case anybody takes your comment seriously, Dskip, they do not know my wife: She is immune to ANY placebo effect, and that is especially true when it comes to my audio shenanigans! Which, by the way, is one more reason I consider myself a very lucky man, on today, our 35th anniversary!
Cheers!Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.
Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One. -
Moose68Bash wrote: »
Oh, goodness, I forgot that! Please forgive me!
PS: In case anybody takes your comment seriously, Dskip, they do not know my wife: She is immune to ANY placebo effect, and that is especially true when it comes to my audio shenanigans! Which, by the way, is one more reason I consider myself a very lucky man, on today, our 35th anniversary!
Cheers!
Happy anniversary to you both!afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
My take is that we should all be a little bit angry that they produce such garbage and spread such a high level of misinformation. All based on a Al Gore level science misuse and twisted logic.As a community, we should be grateful that Audioholics does produce articles and videos to address the subject and correct the audio mythologies.
The result is many, like yourself, going off unaware that you're leaving a higher level of enjoyment behind unused. To use a sales or negotiating term, you leave it on the table. That's so sad for you.
But worse is your attempt to spread such a low level of operation to others and cause them to also miss out on so much, coming up so close but so short of much more.
A little bit here and a little bit there missed out on and soon you miss the bigger picture entirely that so many others do achieve and enjoy. So sad!
CJ
A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
CoolJazz,
Well said.
I wonder how much of it is is simply indolence.
Why work to learn something when defensive ignorance requires so much less effort?Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.
Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One. -
Thanks Moose!
So I took a call this afternoon from an old friend. After hanging up I got to thinking how a positive change and experience would never have happened with those glued to the "wisdom" handed down to them on the internet.
He was saying yesterday how he had another friend over and he put new Cardas RCA male ends on his interconnect cables (longer interconnect and shorter speaker cables of course). He was called back a couple hours later and was told how amazed he was at the change in the sound. I asked what were the female RCA's at each end...the answer is Cardas.
This a fine example of how much can be missed out on by following the flat earth society line that it doesn't matter. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. It's just attempting to use interconnects as tone controls. It's just your mind playing tricks on you...that gritty character to the notes you think you heard change isn't really there. It doesn't conform to freq response or distortion numbers changing so it's just your mind playing tricks.
This reminded me of some work a few years back for a friend that wanted all Cardas on his speaker connections. So with some effort, the nasty steel post connections on the Mac amp came off and on went some much better materials. The other end was Thiel speakers and off came it's original posts and with building out some nice little blocks, was able to add without drilling holes, some Cardas posts at that end. All to be able to have same metals for each connection as he already had Cardas spade wiring. The much more positive feeling connection was nice, and I thought that would be it. But actually, after hooking up it was obvious to all that there was a step clearer sound. Just from the benefit of same metals.
Don't know of any measurement that could have "heard" what was heard from either of these changes. This is the stuff that makes the small changes add up to better listening experiences that web searches just can't tell you will happen.
CJ
A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
Once again another thread on cables. Why can't everyone follow their heart and ears ?? Each camp truly believes in what they've posted.
Let's let it go at that.
P-man
Because I am The Pumpkinking
A Kind Word Is An Easy Gift To Give -
There's also a reason why DK isn't bothering to post in this thread. Right now he is probably relaxing, eyes closed, perhaps sipping a fine spirit, listening to great music, through whatever cables he chooses. You should all try it. It's really wonderful. It's even better than arguing about cables.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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X, you've been brainwashed.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
And keep in mind, ANY change in sound, is a degradation.
That's ludicrous. No, it's not.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
No we should follow our informed brain. If one better understands the engineering and science behind audio signal transfer then one would look for good quality inexpensive cables and not need to spend substantial money on exotic cables.
Some people love to spend money and experiment with cables thinking they will greatly improve their audio experience. They will even convince themselves of this and hear what they want to hear. The study of expectation bias, pthe placebo effect and psychoacoustics can help to explain this, but that is their prerogative as it is their money. However, this is not necessary when you really understand how equipment is engineered, designed and especially so on how exotic cables are marketed.
That is one reason why the Audioholics and other articles and videos are so valuable. They could easily fall into line with the marketers and promote products with high profit margin. They don't and that is a strong testament to their knowledge and integrity.
The following AES Audio Myths Workshop videos are very educational on these matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woU6_Pexoj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
http://audiotweak.net/2012/10/11/snake-oil-of-the-year-award-audiophile-cables/
Why not just go away.......
Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
Currently listening to * STYX * on Frank's Ultra Bi-wire Speaker Cables that I just got from a trade with Paul
ROCK ON!
2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge
HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD -
These guys troll in pairs. There was Monk and Villain, now we have X and Kevin. I have to admit, it is amusing reading their meandering and trying to sound smart by using big words such as engineering, resistance, laws of physics, etc. Yet, all they manage to accomplish is demonstrating how little they know about the subject matter.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Why trust your ears? Useless things they are, right?No we should follow our informed brain.afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
I'm done with this thread.
Enjoy all
Because I am The Pumpkinking
A Kind Word Is An Easy Gift To Give -
This same guy that says all cables are the same also entered in your Karma for the jumpers. Now THAT'S funny.pumpkinman wrote: »I'm done with this thread.
Enjoy all
afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
.
Using *ANYTHING* Audioholics posts as a basis for your argument is like using a bratwurst to prove cold fusion.
LMAO....Sig material right there.
Once again, another cable thread comes down to.....
Read it on the internet
Seen a Youtube video
Roger Russell reports
Placebo
Then we have "Science".....which of course none of these cable manufacturers use, right ?
All through out history wise men are depicted as old guys in robes. Know why ? Because with old age comes a cumulative effect of EXPERIENCES and Knowledge gained along the way. The robes are because in their old age and wasting time gaining all that wisdom, they became perverts.
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
A guy sitting in his living room with a stained T-shirt and drinking a beer and listening to a sound system, is trying to dictate that they understand more about how things are done, than the guys that actually DO engineer stuff, measure, and design it etc.
That is among the most arrogant, obnoxious, pretentious, presumptuous broad-brush condemnations of people that somebody doesn't even know that I have ever heard!
What a remarkably egotistic and fatuous statement!Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.
Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One. -
Moose68Bash wrote: »
That is among the most arrogant, obnoxious, pretentious, presumptuous broad-brush condemnations of people that somebody doesn't even know that I have ever heard!
What a remarkably egotistic and fatuous statement!
Well said @Moose68BashPio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
side note - have you guys seen this awesome old movie?
I disabled signatures. -
Kevin, you must be pretty old if you were in your 20's in 1944. LOLafterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
side note - have you guys seen this awesome old movie?
I wasn't going to post in this thread again but that's d-a-m-n"funny"
Because I am The Pumpkinking
A Kind Word Is An Easy Gift To Give -
Oooo...unless my mind is deceiving my eyes (and my ears) that guy in the background of that movie poster looks just like Kevin's old avatar! Freakyyyy.....
Bring back your old avatar Kevin. See if I'm not right!!
CJA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
Maybe you have me confused with someone else?
I have been working in movies for several decades. Not the same guy
Oh....come now Kevin. Don't be shy. The real you is slightly scary but we'll survive....
The movie version of Kevintomb...
The original Kevintomb....
See....I think there is certainly some reason to believe Kevin was in that movie!! Being in the witness protection program can only change just so much....
CJA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
On the topic of bi-wiring... I have considered this from an EE standpoint.
1) You have a source which is producing the full audio spectrum.
2) You have one wire pair, with its own reactive impedance (little RLC networks), subjected to the high frequency signal (mid and tweeter signal). The lows are blocked by the high impedance of the crossover at these frequencies.
3) You have the other wire pair, with its own reactive impedance (little RLC networks), subjected to the low frequency signal (woofer signal). The highs are blocked by the high impedance of the crossover at these frequencies.
4) From a purely resistive standpoint, you have increased the effective wire diameter (lower wire resistance). You also have two frequency reactive impedances in parallel but operating at different frequencies. The circuit gets quite complicated especially at the crossover frequency.
5) Compare this to a single pair in which all frequencies pass through the frequency reactive impedance (little RLC networks) of the wire.
I have not tried it yet but I can see that there may be an advantage to bi-wiring for some of the same reasons that we have 2 and 3 way speakers. The question is. how much difference does it make?
Typically folks say to use the same type of wire for the highs as the lows. Perhaps there is an argument against this? Would it be better to use a wire with lower impedance at high frequency for the high frequency signal and vice versa for the low?
This could be a whole new marketing strategy for speaker wire manufactures.
Stan
Main 2ch:
Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Benchmark DAC1, Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.
HT:
Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW110 , Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60
Other stuff:
Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade); Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601 -
I believe both pair of wires have the same frequencies between the amps and speakers. The cross overs in the speakers then separate out the frequencies they need.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
How can there be "good quality inexpensive cables" if cables don't matter?...No we should follow our informed brain. If one better understands the engineering and science behind audio signal transfer then one would look for good quality inexpensive cables and not need to spend substantial money on exotic cables...
Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
This discussion has been closed.