Sorry but I gotta post this about Toyota, it's too big to ignore

PhantomOG

you're batting .000 for analogies in this thread

If the loan was anything other than the complete opposite of 'secured' they could have found financing just like you did for your house.

brettw22

You'll be ok.......just have to accept that GM is partially owned by the Government, and whether you like it or not, that's reality..........life's a ****, right?

PhantomOG

Yep, sure is. I just count it as one other form of welfare my tax dollars are wasted on. Its just insanely funny that the portion of the population that supports it is too damn stupid to see their own hypocrisy. It takes a big man to support a free market, it only take a little one to blindly drop that support once their **** gets handed to them by a competitor.

brettw22

you big man, me little one......puke......

Demiurge

concealer404

Oh hi there....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_gm_recall

obieone

concealer404 wrote: »

Oh hi there....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_gm_recall

I can't wait to see the how the MSM spins this:rolleyes:

I can hear Chris Mathews already: "See? WE'RE doing the responsible thing":eek:

concealer404

obieone wrote: »

I can't wait to see the how the MSM spins this:rolleyes:

I can hear Chris Mathews already: "See? WE'RE doing the responsible thing":eek:

Finally started their investigation January 27th...

This has been going on for quite awhile. I'm going to be real disappointed if they aren't accused of much the same action that Toyota is being accused of.

But then... who would they have to answer to? BMW?

Roy Munson

Here's a great Businessweek article about the witch hunt being levied against Toyota..lets see if there are any Congressional hearings on the GM recall and if they are held to the same scrutiny as Toyota!

Wallace's World February 25, 2010, 3:42PM EST

The Toyota Witch Hunt

Much of the testimony from Congress's Toyota hearings is riveting and emotional but can't be trusted, writes Ed Wallace

By Ed Wallace


"Several times I have noticed that the acceleration will drop off the second I take my foot off the pedal. Please advise ASAP!!!!!!!!!"—NHTSA Toyota Complaint #10302477

"Accelerator stuck, wide-open position, sudden acceleration to high speed, while driving. Unable to stop vehicle with braking system."—NHTSA Toyota Complaint #10302541

The above are two of the thousands of complaints registered with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration concerning speed control issues with late-model Toyota (TM) Camrys. The media keep saying that "close to 3,000 complaints of uncontrollable unintended acceleration" have been sent to the NHTSA, and doing so may make their audience think each of these "complaints" stems from a legitimate problem—maybe even an accident. Like everything else in this fiasco, that's overstated.

What is important to remember is that many of the items included in that number are not complaints at all. The first one above actually reports that the accelerator pedal works exactly as it's designed to: It doesn't stick, it responds instantly.

And many serious-sounding complaints raise questions as to their veracity. For example, in the second complaint above, in spite of the fact that the person claimed the throttle was stuck in a full open position, with no brakes, that file also shows the vehicle was not involved in a wreck. That is a very strange outcome for a car driving uncontrollably at a high rate of speed with no working brakes.

"Malfunction Could Not Be Duplicated"

On Feb. 23, a House Energy & Commerce subcommittee held lengthy hearings on the Toyota situation. Their first witnesses after the committee members' opening statements were Eddie and Rhonda Smith of Sevierville, Tenn., who related the story of their 2007 Lexus ES 350.

Ms. Smith claimed she had been driving toward Interstate 40 when, immediately after entering the highway, her Lexus started accelerating out of control. Ms. Smith related how the cruise-control light came on, so she turned that system off. She put the automatic transmission into all of its gears, including neutral and reserve. She put both feet on the brakes and still nothing. According to her testimony and an article published at WATE.com on Aug. 29, 2007, she also engaged the parking brake. She called her husband—not that she felt he could help, but "just to hear his voice one more time"—and then, according to her testimony, "prayed for God to help me." Ms. Smith credited God with intervening after she'd gone six miles at more than 100 mph. The car simply started slowing down, and she could finally bring it to a complete stop.

Smith's testimony was riveting and highly emotional, and anyone watching could see she honestly believed she was relating what actually happened. No viewer could have been untouched by her sincerity. But that's not the end of her story.

Her local Lexus dealer examined her car and could find nothing. Then, as Ms. Smith related, the NHTSA actually sent an employee down to Tennessee to investigate her complaint. Only the NHTSA concluded that she had two sets of floor mats in her car—a rubber all-weather floor mat, placed on top of the standard factory issue—and it was likely that situation had created her problem. In fact, Smith was quoted in 2007 as saying, "I think it's sad that these mats were installed like they were."

The Smiths dismissed the dealer's findings, the NHTSA's, and an arbitration board's by saying that they had been "called liars." More than likely the investigators simply said that there was no evidence they could find to explain the situation as she described it.

The Proof Would Be Visible

In a case like this, some physical evidence would remain; and a thorough investigation should be able to determine what truly took place. Certainly slamming on the emergency brake, as Smith claimed she had done in 2007, leaves tangible evidence. Here's why.

The parking brake in a Lexus ES 350 operates separately from the power brake system. It is a secondary disc/drum brake that is controlled by a direct link cable—so the car's electronics could not come into play. Moreover, once that cable-operated brake is fully engaged, it could lock up the nonpowered rear wheels of the Lexus, effectively negating the antilock brake system's ability to operate. And locking the real wheels on a Lexus ES 350 moving at a high rate of speed would "sand" the bottom of the tires against the pavement. In a partially engaged position, it will heat up and cause brake damage. But either way, because it is being applied on the rear wheels—and the Lexus ES is a front-wheel-drive car—it would still slow the car down.

This is the one thing Rhonda Smith claimed she tried and it didn't work that no one can blame on ghosts in the electronics.

As for Ms. Smith's position that she threw her car into reverse and it did nothing to either stop the car or damage the transmission, that's an incredible claim that so far no mechanic believes. Just as anyone who has ever tested cars knows that full pressure to the brakes will always override engine speed. (It should be noted that on Toyota's hybrids you can put the car in reverse while in motion, and nothing will happen.)

Rhonda Smith thanked Sean Kane, president of for-profit auto industry safety consultant Safety Research & Strategies Inc. for inviting her to testify on Tuesday. For those who didn't watch the proceedings, the most humorous part was Kane trying to get out of answering the direct question, Did part of his funding come from litigation attorneys who are actively suing Toyota on this issue? In fact, they do pay him. According to a Feb. 13 article in The Wall Street Journal, the Rehoboth (Mass.)-based company works with plaintiff's attorneys to file suits against the automakers it investigates.

Follow-up: The Smiths sold their Lexus after that incident, and, also according to the Journal, last week the NHTSA checked with the new owners and "they have had no problems with the Lexus since they bought it with less than 3,000 miles on the car."

"Findings" Hardly Scientific

Herein lies the problem with congressional hearings on issues like this. The individuals who should have testified following Eddie and Rhonda Smith could have been the NHTSA expert who flew to Tennessee, inspected her vehicle, and concluded that it was likely the double layer of floor mats. Or the certified mechanic at her Lexus dealership likewise could have told Congress how he could find no evidence of mechanical failure with her car. Who knows, their testimony might have validated her claims, had it been proved that they did little or nothing to truly try to uncover what happened that day. Conversely, things could have gone the other way. But we all would have had a better, more balanced understanding of her case as stated.

Read the rest here:

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/feb2010/bw20100225_403524.htm

obieone

^^^Honesty?....Truthfulness?.....Transparency?.....From Congress???
Thats some funny stuff:p

Barefoot

Hey Star Wars.. I'm just wondering.. can you go one day without instigating political **** in an audio forum? Al, Mark, mods, whomever, here's your problem right here. :rolleyes:

concealer404

Barefoot wrote: »

Hey Star Wars.. I'm just wondering.. can you go one day without instigating political **** in an audio forum? Al, Mark, mods, whomever, here's your problem right here. :rolleyes:

Your link is broken.

concealer404

Bob Lutz opens mouth. Hilarity ensues.


I will now start to wait for a South Park parody. "Blame Toyota!" set to the melody of "Blame Canada!"

eneral Motors (GM) is recalling 1.3 million small cars in North America because of a power steering problem that has been linked to 14 crashes.
The firm said four models were affected - the Chevrolet Cobalt, Pontiac G5, Pontiac Pursuit and Pontiac 4.
It said the fault meant that at low speeds "greater steering effort may be required", but that the cars could still be "safely controlled".
GM blamed the fault on a supplier partially owned by Toyota.
GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz told the BBC at the Geneva Motor show: "This is a case where, yes, we would blame a partially Toyota-owned supplier."

Recalling these vehicles is the right thing to do for our customers' peace of mind Jamie Hresko, GM vice president of quality
Mr Lutz said the supplier had not met "all requirements for reliability and durability".
"So we will have to see who takes financial responsibility," he said. "But this is a risk you sometimes take when you buy a complete system from a supplier."
Complaints
GM said it had told the US car safety regulator - the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) - about the recall on Monday when it finished an investigation that started last year.

ANALYSIS Jorn Madslien By Jorn Madslien, Business reporter, BBC News, Geneva
Good news at the Geneva motor show is tempered by bad news out of the US.
GM hopes its investment of an additional 1.3bn euros in its European Opel/Vauxhall subsidiary will convince European governments to back its remaining funding requirements by guaranteeing loans.
But as GM recalls some 1.3 million models in the US, it seems reluctant to take responsibility for the faulty power steering, as the part in question was produced by a Toyota-owned subsidiary.
GM's willingness to pass the buck could further damage Toyota's image - or it could backfire as the affair turns into a mighty row that could involve the US and Japanese governments as well as their largest automotive groups. New investment for Opel
The NHTSA itself had been investigating the problem since 27 January after receiving more than 1,100 complaints, including 14 crashes and one injury.
The recall covers the 2005 to 2010 model year Chevrolet Cobalt, and 2007 to 2010 Pontiac G5 sold in the US.
In addition, it includes the 2005 to 2006 Pontiac Pursuit sold in Canada, and the 2005 to 2006 Pontiac G4 sold in Mexico.
"After our in-depth investigation, we found that this is a condition that takes time to develop," said GM vice president of quality, Jamie Hresko.
"It tends to occur in older models out of warranty. Recalling these vehicles is the right thing to do for our customers' peace of mind."

mantis

Everyone gets all caught up in name brands. Track records prove good companies and bad ones. It's pretty easy to buy a new or used car.

brettw22

If anyone here is going to compare a power steering pump going out to an accelerator speeding a car up at random, there's something whacked in your logic trying to compare apples to oranges.

I'd imagine the people who didn't realize they had to actually put some muscle into the steering wheel if the pump went out ran into other people........but that's far less crazy than a car that just decides to GOOOOOOOO........

concealer404

brettw22 wrote: »

If anyone here is going to compare a power steering pump going out to an accelerator speeding a car up at random, there's something whacked in your logic trying to compare apples to oranges.

I'd imagine the people who didn't realize they had to actually put some muscle into the steering wheel if the pump went out ran into other people........but that's far less crazy than a car that just decides to GOOOOOOOO........

Well... i would imagine that it's the same people that can't figure out how to stomp on the brakes in the Toyotas.

I'm honestly more bemused that Lutz seems to think that his power steering issues are Toyota's fault.

But that wasn't even my point, Brett.

These issues have been known for YEARS. How are people going to condemn Toyota, and then not raise an outrage over this not being investigated until January 27th, 2010?

Again, not taking sides. I couldn't care less if either of these companies fail, because they have failed to interest me personally as a consumer. But you've got to see the blatant hypocrisy here.

"We still have no idea how to make competent automobiles and function like a 21st century company, but we're really great at insinuating blame."

They could have at least blamed the Vibe if they wanted this to even look remotely possible.

Look... GM is blaming Toyota for their quality issues. Am i the only person that sees this as some of the strangest crap i've ever read?

Hillbilly61

I agree with comments that this has turned political. When things get political, facts and reality tends to take a back seat.

There were two companies manufacturing the accelerator mechanism for Toyota, using the design and specs supplied by Toyota. One in Japan and the other one USA. As the big blow up began to unfold, Toyota explicitly exonerated the Japanese company, fingering the USA company at the ultimate source of the fault. The American CEO parts supplier issued a press release essentially saying "B.S. We made this part to Toyota's designs and specs. They accepted our parts as compliant."

Toyota politicized this issue by their move to single out a USA parts supplier and exonerate a Japanese one building the exact same thing. Now they are reaping the consequences.

concealer404

Hillbilly61 wrote: »

I agree with comments that this has turned political. When things get political, facts and reality tends to take a back seat.

There were two companies manufacturing the accelerator mechanism for Toyota, using the design and specs supplied by Toyota. One in Japan and the other one USA. As the big blow up began to unfold, Toyota explicitly exonerated the Japanese company, fingering the USA company at the ultimate source of the fault. The American CEO parts supplier issued a press release essentially saying "B.S. We made this part to Toyota's designs and specs. They accepted our parts as compliant."

Toyota politicized this issue by their move to single out a USA parts supplier and exonerate a Japanese one building the exact same thing. Now they are reaping the consequences.

Yeah, and that's always seemed weird to me, though... The fix was to remove the CTS part, and replace with the Denso part. I still don't understand why Toyota would have given different specs to the two companies. If CTS built the part to Toyota's specs (and i guess they very well might have, i'm no real expert on all this, and it could be argued that what i know is irrelevant, since i refuse to buy a Toyota newer than 15 years old), then did Denso build the part incorrectly, but it just happened to work right?

ASSuming that Toyota gave both companies the same specs, and they should have, SOMEBODY screwed up. Now was it Denso or CTS? The failures seem to point to CTS (though data may be skewed), and CTS indirectly is pointing to Denso. Both people can't have both build it right if one or the other fails, and both recieved the same specs.

Again, this is all logical speculation, though. I work in Health Insurance. Not manufacturing.

Did Toyota handle this right? Doubtful. Are they the only ones at fault in this debacle? Doubtful. Is how this is all proceeding the right way to go about it? Absolutely not.

But it seems that Government Motors has no problems jumping into the blame game. "Our cars suck too! It's Toyota's fault!"

Wait. What?

concealer404

And.... Maximum Bob is retiring.

I think GM is toast.

ohskigod

Hate to revive this but.....DOH!!!!!!!!!!!

still think there isnt a problem here kids?

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/09/toyota-reportedly-recalls-priuses-investigate-gas-pedal-issues/

concealer404

ohskigod wrote: »

Hate to revive this but.....DOH!!!!!!!!!!!

still think there isnt a problem here kids?

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/09/toyota-reportedly-recalls-priuses-investigate-gas-pedal-issues/

The problem is that nobody seems to be able to re-create the problem.


As for James Sikes? Something doesn't smell right about the whole thing. The dude wouldn't look into the camera, and there's other parts of the story that just don't match up.

I'm not denying that there's a problem, but this Sikes character has me suspicious.

Roy Munson

Got to agree..Mr. Sikes story doesn't pass the smell test. While indeed there are several inconsistencies in his story the most glaring one is that he claims the brakes wouldn't stop the car. What makes this BS is the fact that Prius cars have a brake override!!!!!! When the brakes are applied they override the accelerator. If Mr Sikes really tried to stop his car, he should have been able to. If on the other hand what he is saying is true then Toyota has gigantic problems that no one has even imagined that will bring them to their knees.

concealer404

I was referring more to the part that you CANNOT burn up the brakes in a Prius. You wouldn't smell it. Regenerative braking. These cops have VERY active imaginations. I have seen first hand that you can ride the brakes on these cars for long distances, get out, and then stick your hand on the rotor and NOT get burned.

IF the story is true, and i'm pretty sure it's not, the following would have had to have failed:

1) Brake override system
2) Drive-by wire system
3) Regenerative braking system
4) common sense


Oh... need i mention the **** where they report that "Once the car slowed to 50mph, it was able to be turned off?" What magical occurence happens above 50mph that keeps you from turning the car off, but goes away at 50mph or less?

Oh? You mean that this mouthbreather FINALLY thought of turning the car off at 50mph? Great reporting, guys.

concealer404

After more research, this guy needs to be cleansed from the gene pool.

1) He was told to shift the car into neutral. He responded by saying that he wouldn't, because he was afraid that the car would "Flip over."
2) The entire 911 call seems staged. Here's what i think: I think he was just speeding, and when he saw the cops, he thought of an easy way out. When he "got his point across" then all systems magically worked again, which would explain why the car didn't TRY TO KEEP GOING after it was stopped and the system NOT reset.
3) Looking at his background, he's filed 2 burglary reports for over $50k and the reports were found unsubstantiated. Hrmmm.... lawsuit money?


I'm REAL interested to see what the black box data pulls. I'm betting his foot was on the gas the whole time.

Jstas

Umm...a Prius does have conventional brakes as well. The regenerative braking is an auxiliary braking system for regaining lost energy but if the pressure on the pedal is high enough, the system defaults to the conventional brakes which operate just like every other brake on on every other car on the road and can "burn up". The Prius also has a parking/emergency brake, just like every other car on the road.



Oh and BTW, the Tundra frame rusting recall has just been extended to 2000-2003 models.

John30_30

concealer404 wrote: »

After more research, this guy needs to be cleansed from the gene pool.

1) He was told to shift the car into neutral. He responded by saying that he wouldn't, because he was afraid that the car would "Flip over."
2) The entire 911 call seems staged. Here's what i think: I think he was just speeding, and when he saw the cops, he thought of an easy way out. When he "got his point across" then all systems magically worked again, which would explain why the car didn't TRY TO KEEP GOING after it was stopped and the system NOT reset.
3) Looking at his background, he's filed 2 burglary reports for over $50k and the reports were found unsubstantiated. Hrmmm.... lawsuit money?


I'm REAL interested to see what the black box data pulls. I'm betting his foot was on the gas the whole time.

Soooo...the guy may well be a small-time fraudster and he singlehandedly (or footedly) put a billion dollar hurt to their stock value. Ouch!

They call him Mr.SIKES!!!!!

shawn474

Unfortunately. there will be 1,000's more of these cases in the very near future. EVERYONE who has been in an accident or speeding infraction in a Toyota is going to claim stuck accelerator and have lawyers lining up to take their cases. We live in a very litigious society and this is going to feed it. There may be some merit to these cases, but I am a skeptic when it comes to this stuff. I am a big supporter of taking accountability for your actions and accepting the outcome. IF Toyota is to blame, obviously I would sue the pants off of them, but with all the information out there, I find it hard to believe that they are TOTALLY to blame.

obieone

Hey, I just found a syringe in my Pepsi CAN!:rolleyes:

concealer404

To add to the general whackyness of this...

Mr. Sikes here has a swinger's club in his name.

Danny Tse

Looks like mainstream media is finally picking up suspicions of the guy with the "out of control" Prius.