Sorry but I gotta post this about Toyota, it's too big to ignore

shack

I have no problem with the govt. investigating safety issues. I have a problem with the dog and pony show going on in congress. It's nothing more that a chance for politicians to wave their arms about, buster all over the place, scowl, rant and in general show all of us just how important they are, how much they care and how they are going to "take care of all of us". It is a total watse of everyones time IMO. Put people in place to deal with the problems...then let them deal with them.

AsSiMiLaTeD

concealer404 wrote: »

Oh no, on a certain level, we ALL have a dog in this fight, and we should ALL be rooting for GM.

That's my point. If I'm rooting for a company it should be because of some reason other than the fact that if they fail I'm paying for it with my tax dollars.

brettw22

You're trying to have it both ways though.......while you're saying they should investigate, they MIGHT have a conflict of interest......or at least appearance...... so that makes the investigation look cheap or compromised...

I'm not saying your wife's takes it from every man she sees because of the way she dresses, but she does have a short skirt on....

Same concept......people aren't saying that the Government is out to eff Toyota (most aren't, but some are), but they'll imply it and use it because they want to see it fit their 'viewpoint' however contorted that is.

I'm ok with them holding Toyota or any other company to the table for this type of thing, and I couldn't care less if there was an actual car named the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA SEVILLE.

As for the public lashings.......if a board of people were assigned to look at it and handle it, people would **** about not being aware of every detail that was discussed or talked about because it was a closed door meeting blah blah blah..........

I don't like over the top showboating stuff, but at a certain point, the CEO's are gonna have to stand up and take some heat because just fixing the problem and wanting to get away with just a behind the scenes fix isn't going to hold them accountable like being called to the table......

ohskigod

concealer404 wrote: »

How is a recall based on a ROLLOVER more legit than this? I guess i follow a different line of thinking than most people here....
.

no where in my post did i say that, I certainly rank cars careaning against the driver's wishes higher than the Ford tire thing.....thought i made that clear. if you meant to say NOT more legit. if i had a choice between a controlling a tire stripping or addressing an uncontrolled acceleration, give me the tire blowout.

shack wrote: »

I have no problem with the govt. investigating safety issues. I have a problem with the dog and pony show going on in congress.

this would be the same congress that paraded baseball players for steroid abuse......while the economy was on the cusp of disaster? Yep, picture my face with a complete lack of surprise on it, just sayin

brettw22 wrote: »

I'm not saying your wife's takes it from every man she sees because of the way she dresses, but she does have a short skirt on....

hey, what's that in the sky? it's the ROFLcopter. I laughed like hell while I had someone on the phone, thanks ****

AsSiMiLaTeD

no where in my post did i say that, I certainly rank cars careaning against the driver's wishes higher than the Ford tire thing.....thought i made that clear.

I don't really agree with that. If my car starts accelerating out of control I at least have options (slam on the brakes, put it in neutral, turn off the engine, etc). If I'm flying down the highway and my tires blows out and my vehicle flips, then I don't really even hvae time to react...

shack

brettw22 wrote:

I don't like over the top showboating stuff, but at a certain point, the CEO's are gonna have to stand up and take some heat because just fixing the problem and wanting to get away with just a behind the scenes fix isn't going to hold them accountable like being called to the table......

That is what civil courts are for.

Jstas

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'<a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-february-23-2010/toyotathon-of-death---unintended-acceleration-problem'>Toyotathon of Death - Unintended Acceleration Problem<a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:265382' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.colbertnation.com/special/colbert-vancouver-games'>Vancouverage 2010</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

brettw22

True Shack, but this isn't a small issue........it's something that's got them pinned to several million vehicles and is more of a nationwide issue than a small batch that affected a couple thousand vehicles.......different POV is all.....

ohskigod

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I don't really agree with that. If my car starts accelerating out of control I at least have options (slam on the brakes, put it in neutral, turn off the engine, etc). If I'm flying down the highway and my tires blows out and my vehicle flips, then I don't really even hvae time to react...

both are bad, we can agree on that. the rank is where we disagree. I'm going big picture, the masses overall are more knowlegable to handle a tire blowout (and most of the time, it didnt blow, the tread itself seperated.....different ballgame, though not good) than a runaway car (espescially with push starters). couple that with the wider degree of affected cars, thus to me higher rank interms of the "oh shitometer"

again, I hear your point

Jstas

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I don't really agree with that. If my car starts accelerating out of control I at least have options (slam on the brakes, put it in neutral, turn off the engine, etc). If I'm flying down the highway and my tires blows out and my vehicle flips, then I don't really even hvae time to react...

Step 1: Fly car down the highway
Step 2: Blowout tire
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Crash and rollover
Step 5: Die


OK, ignoring the fact that physics says step one is not possible, I really want to know how you get to Step 4 from Step 2. A blowout does not necessarily mean a car of any kind is going to rollover.

There have been many "rollover cases", not just Ford. Toyota, Honda, GM, Nissan, Mercedes Benz and Range Rover have all be taken down to the mat over rollovers. In most cases, it was determined that driver input was the result of the rollover, not necessarily the tire blowout.

Now, if you genius want to keep throwing around other recalls and saying things like "By the way how many people died in Ford SUV rollovers before they made it a recall???" why don't you do some research first? It's quite simple really. It's all available for public consumption. You might be surprised at how weakly (or not at all) your emotion filled statements are backup up by your reference.

Otherwise, if you aren't going to post actual numbers and cite where you got them from, you should just stop. Your arguments aren't valid anyway because they are begging the question. That question being "How is that statement relevant?" Without actual numbers, it's not.

And, for reference, the total number of deaths associated with the "rollover case" that keeps getting bantered about is 200. Odd how it's a nice round number like that. But we won't get in to that. The recall was the same recall for teh Ford Explorer/Firestone Wilderness tire problem discussed ad nauseum here before. The total recall was 6.3 million TIRES. Divide that by 4 and you get about 1.575 million vehicles recalled. It really wasn't that hard to find.

Matt34

brettw22 wrote: »

Regardless of the Gov'ts stake in GM, this is a safety issue period. If they had zero stake in GM, they would still be addressing this as is and if you're gonna **** about the fact that they're involved, then be consistent at it..........people who would usually **** about not being involved are the same one's now bitching about actually being involved........it's getting old people.

So you see no conflict of interest in what the government is doing? It's like if....heck no analogy is needed, the government/congress thinks that no one will call them to task in what was the fundemental issues to why folks in this country frowned upon these buyouts from the get go. How can you now regulate an industry when you now have tax payers money tied up in the competition? Wrong, right or indifferent they have taken themselves out of an impartial standing.

sucks2beme

ME knunkle dragger. Want cable or linkage. Turn off key stop car. Shift to
"N" workie. Wheels turn with big wheel in car. Computers take over, kill
all humans. No want to die. Bad terminators who look like California
governor come to do bad things. HELP!!!

AsSiMiLaTeD

John, someone's already posted the recall numbers. It was in one of the other threads already started on this topic. I'm not gonna go dig it up, you can find it if you want.

This is exactly why I indicated in my first post in this thread that I don't understand why we had to have a separate thread on this, having mu8ltiple threads on the same topic makes it difficult to keep track of the discussion.

brettw22

Matt34 wrote: »

So you see no conflict of interest in what the government is doing? It's like if....heck no analogy is needed, the government/congress thinks that no one will call them to task in what was the fundemental issues to why folks in this country frowned upon these buyouts from the get go. How can you now regulate an industry when you now have tax payers money tied up in the competition? Wrong, right or indifferent they have taken themselves out of an impartial standing.

The point is, i'm not gonna get my undies in a twist over the fact that Toyota is being called to the carpet about a design flaw that affects millions of their vehicles all over the world. I'm not even interested in the actual number of deaths from this issue.........what I am interested in is that the problem has been documented for years, ignored, and they continued to use the same design which DID lead to people's dying. Using your logic, they should just let Toyota have a pass and go about business as usual and fix the problem whenever they choose to do so just so a segment of the population won't cry about both what they will do, and what they won't do.

If next week I find out that GM has the same problem and the exact same pedals from the same manufacturer and they're trying to hide it, then I'd absolutely expect GM to be put on the carpet to, and you can bet your **** that if that were to be discovered, GM would absolutely be nailed to the wall because no one's gonna try to back that type of situation.

The 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the bailouts aside, to say that the Gov't should have zero say on regulations where they have a monetary involvement is an idiot statement at best. In that ideology, any company that has received tax credits shouldn't have to follow governmental guidelines either, right? Both the car companies and companies receiving tax credits are getting 'government money' just in a different form......

Jstas

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

John, someone's already posted the recall numbers. It was in one of the other threads already started on this topic. I'm not gonna go dig it up, you can find it if you want.

This is exactly why I indicated in my first post in this thread that I don't understand why we had to have a separate thread on this, having mu8ltiple threads on the same topic makes it difficult to keep track of the discussion.

You assumed this is about the recall. It's not. And I know the numbers were posted, I posted them in the other thread as well.

This thread is concerning the raiding of Toyota suppliers by the FBI over SEC investigations. A completely different story from the recalls. Therefore, I felt it garnered a separate thread.

But of course, we have to defend Toyota and claim that their crap cars are fantastic and that they will pull through like one of the victims of the "Toyotathon of Death" on life support. We choose to completely ignore the total lack of morals and ethics that the Toyota Motor Company possess. But, you know, God forbid I actually stay on topic.

Jstas

brettw22 wrote: »

The point is, i'm not gonna get my undies in a twist over the fact that Toyota is being called to the carpet about a design flaw that affects millions of their vehicles all over the world. I'm not even interested in the actual number of deaths from this issue.........what I am interested in is that the problem has been documented for years, ignored, and they continued to use the same design which DID lead to people's dying. Using your logic, they should just let Toyota have a pass and go about business as usual and fix the problem whenever they choose to do so just so a segment of the population won't cry about both what they will do, and what they won't do.

If next week I find out that GM has the same problem and the exact same pedals from the same manufacturer and they're trying to hide it, then I'd absolutely expect GM to be put on the carpet to, and you can bet your **** that if that were to be discovered, GM would absolutely be nailed to the wall because no one's gonna try to back that type of situation.

The 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the bailouts aside, to say that the Gov't should have zero say on regulations where they have a monetary involvement is an idiot statement at best. In that ideology, any company that has received tax credits shouldn't have to follow governmental guidelines either, right? Both the car companies and companies receiving tax credits are getting 'government money' just in a different form......

Listen up folks, the man makes sense.

shack

A lot of this discussion centers around just what role the govt. should play in our daily lives. It IS becoming more and more each day. It appears that the government must protect us from enemies of the state, terrorists, criminals, businesses, financial ruin, illness, accidents, predators, each other and last but not least....ourselves.

I am not an anarchist nor am I a socialist...I am squarely in the middle.

However, I do find the increasing role of government in our daily lives something to ponder and we need consider the ramifications very carefully. Obviously some think the symbolic public flogging of Toyota and it's leaders is a good thing. I'm not sure it has any real or lasting value. Held accountable...sure...but there are better ways IMO.

PhantomOG

brettw22 wrote: »

The 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the bailouts aside, to say that the Gov't should have zero say on regulations where they have a monetary involvement is an idiot statement at best. In that ideology, any company that has received tax credits shouldn't have to follow governmental guidelines either, right? Both the car companies and companies receiving tax credits are getting 'government money' just in a different form......

Too bad a tax credit is a hell of alot different than OWNERSHIP. I know for damn sure alot of you guys would be up in arms about the US government having ownership in a private company with one hand and with the other trying to police the market that company competes in if it was ANY other company/industry besides US automakers. Most guys here are lickety split to point out any which way the government trys to overstep it's bounds. However, when Uncle Sam does so to help their beloved domestic auto industry its A-OK then. :rolleyes:

AsSiMiLaTeD

This

PhantomOG wrote: »

Too bad a tax credit is a hell of alot different than OWNERSHIP. I know for damn sure alot of you guys would be up in arms about the US government having ownership in a private company with one hand and with the other trying to police the market that company competes in if it was ANY other company/industry besides US automakers. Most guys here are lickety split to point out any which way the government trys to overstep it's bounds. However, when Uncle Sam does so to help their beloved domestic auto industry its A-OK then. :rolleyes:

Matt34

brettw22 wrote: »

The point is, i'm not gonna get my undies in a twist over the fact that Toyota is being called to the carpet about a design flaw that affects millions of their vehicles all over the world. I'm not even interested in the actual number of deaths from this issue.........what I am interested in is that the problem has been documented for years, ignored, and they continued to use the same design which DID lead to people's dying. Using your logic, they should just let Toyota have a pass and go about business as usual and fix the problem whenever they choose to do so just so a segment of the population won't cry about both what they will do, and what they won't do.

No what I said it our government has lost the ability to be impartial. I never said Toyota should get a pass.

If next week I find out that GM has the same problem and the exact same pedals from the same manufacturer and they're trying to hide it, then I'd absolutely expect GM to be put on the carpet to, and you can bet your **** that if that were to be discovered, GM would absolutely be nailed to the wall because no one's gonna try to back that type of situation.

The 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the bailouts aside, to say that the Gov't should have zero say on regulations where they have a monetary involvement is an idiot statement at best. In that ideology, any company that has received tax credits shouldn't have to follow governmental guidelines either, right? Both the car companies and companies receiving tax credits are getting 'government money' just in a different form......

Your not getting what I'm saying. You just can't put aside the government's prior involvement(s), they are now compromised in regulating the industry because of the stake they have in a competing company. That is my problem with this. It would be a hot topic for me if it was Nissan, Hyundai, Ford or Dodge involved, who the players are doesn't concern me. It's our government overstepping it's bounds with these socialistic actions.

Tax credits are an entirely different topic.

concealer404

This is what's commonly called a "conflict of interest." It doesn't even matter how impartial everyone THINKS the government is operating, the conflict exists.

If the government is going to play big business, they gotta play by the same rules as everyone else.

Demiurge

brettw22 wrote: »

Regardless of the Gov'ts stake in GM, this is a safety issue period. If they had zero stake in GM, they would still be addressing this as is and if you're gonna **** about the fact that they're involved, then be consistent at it..........people who would usually **** about not being involved are the same one's now bitching about actually being involved........it's getting old people.

Do I need to point out how odd these comments are coming from you or does it speak for itself?

Regardless of whether or not there is any impropriety on the part of our government over this investigation, the conflict of interest is there and the questions are therefore valid. This is a cold hard fact even with your partisan blinders on. Fundamentally I don't believe the government ought to be involved in the competitive marketplace so there is no "if your guys were in there you wouldn't care," commentary that has any relevance here.

Does Toyota have a problem on it's hands? Yes.
Does the government have a right to investigate for the safety of it's citizens? Yes.
Does our government own a direct competitor of Toyota? Yes.
Is there a gigantic conflict of interest because of that? Yes.
Are questions about Toyota being railroaded legitimate because of that fact? Yes.

Figure it out.

brettw22

GM asked for a loan and got it. With that tiny little amount of money, the government decided to kick out a person that was perpetuating the problems that enabled them to get to the point of having to ask for a loan in the first place so they demanded he be kicked.......I personally don't have a problem with that........if you were doing a good job and your company was ebbing a collapse, that's one thing.......but that's not what happened.

Let's say that the Government stepped back in response to your idea that they be removed from the decision making process (due to the inability of some to separate bailout monies and safety regulations), who would you suggest be the entity to hold Toyota accountable?

Conflict of interest or not, I'm 100% ok with the Government holding Toyota accountable for this mess. I could care less if the Gov't owned 100% of the company because it has zero to do with the fact that Toyota neglected to modify something they KNEW about for years, and opted to keep letting it go to market. Toyota wouldn't be having this problem today if they had done what they should have done when the problem was reported.

I'm not going to apologize for not freaking the eff out about this. I heard a nutjob say "We're not suggesting corporate espionage, but it's entirely possible" on the radio.....enjoy the neuroticness of your existence.........

madmax

I don't really want the government taking care of me on this issue. I'd rather they assult terrorists.
madmax

AsSiMiLaTeD

Brett, I don't think anyone is arguing the point that they should be investigating the issue. I think the point that's being made (at least I know this is what I'm saying) is that the government shouldnd't be involved in owning GM in the first place.

You're narrowing the focus of the debate to whether or not Toyota should be investigated. Yes they should, and the government is the right entity to do that, because who else is there.

I'm thinking more 'big picture' here - the reason it's being brought up in this thread is because the scenario we have here is EXACTLY why the government shouldn't be owning a company like GM, it brings into question the integrity of the whole thing, maybe not the investigation itself but certainly you can bet the results at the end of the day are going to be very scrutinized.

My whole point is that if they weren't in bed with GM, that scrutiny pretty much doesn't exist (those with the tin foil hats aside) and the integrity of the results is never really questioned...as least not to the level it is being now.

brettw22

I understand your point as well.........but it's moot. The Government DOES own a majority stake, and that isn't going to change.

It has zero impact on this situation because, at least for myself, I take your entire premise for the 'uproar' as moot........

concealer404

Why does the big bad government get to do something that would get anyone in my juggernaut of an employer fired?

I have to sign papers every 6 months to say that i have no other job, nor pass any information that could possibly result in a conflict of interests, malicious or not.

Slippery slope.

brettw22

I'm personally OK with secured loans......but that's just me.

PhantomOG

secured.... that's hilarious

brettw22

I live in a house that's virtually 100% owned by someone other than me......life goes on.