Toyota shuts down production and halts sales

jflail2

Jstas wrote: »

Uh-oh...

I think the only saving grace that didn't put Ford in the red that year was the year before the Super Duty was released and the Excursion was released that year as well. Both were high profit margin vehicles and they were flying off the lots.

Interesting. Seems like a new product, vehicle, whatever would not be a high profit margin product, as it takes time to get the production cycle down pat, and distribute the fixed costs across X number of vehicles.

Sounds like Ford hit the ground running with these 2!

I'll be finding out about Ford soon enough. Selling my 06 Audi (why am I dumping 1/6th of my monthly paycheck into a depreciating asset...) and going to buy an old Crown Vic from a friend for 1k cash. Used to be a police cruiser, so he said it still moves

concealer404

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

So I'm confused, is Toyota building the pedals, or is CTS? I know Toyota ultimately decides what goes in their cars, that's not the question, but I'd like to know who actually builds the pedals.

I'm asking because if Toyota builds the pedals as john stated, then what the hell difference does it make if they're Denso or CTS, they're still built by Toyota.

Toyota designs the pedals. Denso and CTS make them. If Toyota made the pedals, then Denso or CTS wouldn't have their names on them.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Look, Ford came back from the Pinto ordeal in the 70s, GM came back from the side impact explosion thing in the 80s (which I believe was ultimately debunked anyway?), Audi survived their fiasco in the 80s, Ford survived the explode-a-tire thing a few years back, and Toyota will survive this.

Toyota will take their lumps, as the should, and then they'll bounce back.

I've got a Dodge guy here at work who's just eating this up, emailing me every new article as it comes out, funny as hell.

Jstas

jflail2 wrote: »

This is Toyota's "tylenol escapade." Tylenol did the same thing (albeit I don't think they had 5 years of knowledge...), came to the public and said, we F'd up, we're recalling our product and starting with a clean slate.

If this is Toyota's only speedbump, I don't see this being a death nail or anything. Too many years of a strong track record...

Well, two things.

One, this won't kill Toyota but Toyota has posted a massive loss of $4B last year and stands to lose even more this year. This has turned in to a media circus as well. The PR disaster that this is as well as the other recent and noticed issues with major problems like trucks breaking in half due to rusted frames and brand new cars blowing engines doesn't help the situation.

Two, I keep hearing "track record". These recalls are spanning a decade or more in some cases. How far back does this "track record" extend? Toyota didn't get here until 1957 and they were a non-player through the 1974 model year. Most people don't even remember a Toyota from before 1983 when the Camry became it's own platform and hit U.S. shores.

So if 1983 is how far back most people remember this "track record" then Toyota's recent recalls are covering 30-50% or more of that "track record" and people are STILL saying they make good cars. When? When did they make good cars and when did they earn this reputation they enjoy? When they lied and covered up testing results or manipulated government officials in to only running tests that would give them favorable results?

The American companies, remember those? GM and Ford are both over 100 years old at this point. Chrysler is 85. For 60 years, they were the top of the game, worldwide. In the late 70's quality went through the floor because they were trying to cut costs to compete with the price point that the junk Japanese cars were selling at. Back then, it took 3 years to get a car to market on an expedited design and engineering schedule. 5 to 8 for a regular development cycle. They made small cars by the early 80's and for the most part, they were good cars. Certainly no worse than the Japanese they were competing with. They changed alot in the 80's and then gas prices dropped again. Everyone was behind the ball. But for 60 years prior, the American companies had a stellar track record. 6 decades and 4 generations worth of history as well as the manufacturing might to win two world wars. How do people view them now? "Oh, they make junk. They fall apart. Yada yada yada". In reality, they don't. They make cars that compete worldwide and they do it well. But nobody sees it. They are too blinded by rage that isn't even theirs. 50% of the drivers on the road today were not even old enough to drive when the American companies had their quality problems. Where is the experience coming from?

Toyota has a 30 year track record in this country. For at least 15 of those 30 years, maybe even 20 of those 30 years, Toyota has made cars with dubious quality claims and exploiting the statistics of the market to show a good "track record". The American companies had twice as much time under their belts yet here it is, 30 years later, and they still can't shake the 30 year old monkey off their backs. The people working at these companies now were in high school when the problems happened. Yet people are making them pay for things they didn't have a hand in. Those same people who are holding an asinine grudge are going to sit there and give Toyota a pass for the recent transgressions. The cars are careening out of control, breaking in half and destroying themselves. They have been for years, apparently and for some reason, that's ok now. But 30 years ago, it wasn't. Why? What changed?

Where is the outrage that Toyota has snookered the public, not just Americans but those in Europe and South America as well? Where are the people calling for fines, tariffs and punishments? Where are the people saying "I hope Toyota fails, they deserve it!" Where are they? Why am I the only one who seems to be pissed off about it? I don't even own a Toyota and I still think it sucks. A man and his family died because of this. 8 years ago there were reports of concerns over the problem that cause their deaths. 6 years ago, the government wanted to test and see but because someone at Toyota had an "in" at the NHTSA, they tested the problems away and manipulated the result through known inadequate testing procedures. Why was that guy even allowed NEAR that project? Why did that guy even have access to the NHTSA officials? Why did Toyota let this stand if they KNEW what was going on? Why did Toyota have to ignore the problem and deny it existed until this guy and his family died? Why did they have to die for this to come out in the open? Why?

Nobody has an answer. Just a dumb look on their face and then they say things like "I think Toyota will pull through this." Well, yeah, they will, because too many people are refusing to hold them accountable.

nooshinjohn

Holy CRAP!


I actually AGREE with what Jstas has said above...
To respond with more than this will get way to political, so I shall refrain, but Jstas, you sir are correct!

Jstas

jflail2 wrote: »

Interesting. Seems like a new product, vehicle, whatever would not be a high profit margin product, as it takes time to get the production cycle down pat, and distribute the fixed costs across X number of vehicles.

Sounds like Ford hit the ground running with these 2!

I'll be finding out about Ford soon enough. Selling my 06 Audi (why am I dumping 1/6th of my monthly paycheck into a depreciating asset...) and going to buy an old Crown Vic from a friend for 1k cash. Used to be a police cruiser, so he said it still moves

The Super Duty and Excursion were replacing the F250/F350 vehicles that soldiered on until 1999 because the F-150, redesigned for 97 was not a heavy enough chassis to do the heavy work that the 3/4 ton and 1-ton chassis vehicles were doing.

The Super Duty had been under design since 1996, 3 years earlier. The Excursion was merely the F-250 chassis with a giant station wagon body on it. The trucks were cheap and simple to build but the could command a high price because they were in demand. They also looked like tough guy trucks so everybody and their brother wanted one. The F-150 at the time started at $18,900. The Super Duty which probably cost the same to make as an F-150 started around $25,900.

They didn't "hit the ground running" so to speak, they had been building medium duty trucks for a long time. People were waiting for the medium duty trucks to come out to replace the old chassis ever since the F-150 rolled on to lots in 96 as a 97 model. Certain things people are not afraid to be first buyers on. Ford or Chevy makes a new truck, people line up because they know it's going to be sorted out and a good vehicle. Chevy builds a new Corvette, people line up. Dodge builds a new minivan, people line up. Honda and Toyota build a new sedan, people line up. Porsche builds a new sports car, people line up. Every company has something they are really good at and people are not scared of because of how well they did it in the past. Ford capitalized on that with the Super Duty. When it came out, they didn't beg people to buy it, they went around with it and told people "Hey, you GOTTA see how COOL this thing is!" People ate it up and bought them up. They held their value well too because a 99 Super Duty can still command $10-$12K used. Especially if it's a diesel. Excursions, not so much but they weren't anywhere near as useful and capable.

cnh

I really don't have a stake in defending or refuting any of the above. Toyota's problems are not unique and the American auto industry is not poised for a comeback either....it seems from my experiences overseas that for now...the U.S. is slowly becoming a 'secondary' market for cars and that China is really the 'new' market. And you can see all kinds over here from GMs to Audi, Nissan, Hyundai, Volkswagen, Toyota even some Fords (not that many of those in Beijing because there are some joint GM/China ventures here), and of course relatively 'new' and unknown (in the states) Chinese brands.

Americans will have trouble buying new cars in the quantities they did for years to come..I'm afraid. And railing for or against American or Japanese cars is not going to change the financial problems we will continue to face. Quality issues aside...a lot of Americans have no jobs!

cnh

AsSiMiLaTeD

OK, so I agree somewhat with what John is saying, but am probably a little closer to the middle of the road than he is.

I do agree that American carmakers are in large part paying for stuff that happened 30 years ago, and that this isn't fair. While I have personally have had bad luck with GM and Chrystler in the past decade, that's my own personal experience, and while it affects my purchasing decision, I can't extrapolate that to form a general conclusion on the quality of their products as a whole.

So, I do feel the American automakers get a bum rep, so to speak.

As for the Toyota track record, the reason they get that is because virtually every test and survey conducted has them near the top of the list in terms of quality, especially over the long term.

I've done this before in another thread and won't do it here because I don't really feel like going through it all again, so I'm just gointg to copy and paste the content below. There are posts in that other thread where the statistical relavance of such tests are brought into question and where I explain from a statistical perspective how the results are valid.

Here's the post content:
These are JD Power results, which are surveys taken from actual users and not a write-up done by a sponsored magazine.

Here are the VDS studies for the last few years:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009043
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007130
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2006133
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2005089

How about some looks at Initial Quality (which I don't personally place a much weight on)
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009108
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007088
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2006082
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2005069

There are obviously flaws with any such measurement system. The initial quality (where the non-premium domestics are much closer to Toyota and Honda) doesn't account for longevity in reliability, as it's measured 90 days after purchase. The vehicle dependability study does measure this (and you can see the gap is much wider), but measures it in a PPM type of format (actually problems per 100 cars sold, but could be transformed to a PPM measure) where all problems carry the same weight.

The fact is, the perfect test does not exist. So what we have to go on are the tests that DO exist, our own experience, and the experiences of those around us as observed through direct contact and things like media coverage.

The thread in reference is HERE, but is really only relevant if you wanna hear all the statistical explanation on hwo those results are relevant. There's some banter between John and myself, but I'm beyond all that now and assume he is as well.

Outside of any conspiracy theories on how the results of pretty much every publication are somehow forged, corrupted, slanted or coersed, there really is very little argument about the validity of that information. You can 'say' it's invalid, but you're going to have a hard time making that argument statistically.

Although it may not sound like it, I really don't have a pro-Toyota thing going on here. Hell, if anything, looking at those results you'd be better off with a Buick. My only point is that these types of surveys and tests is what establishes their track record, and IMo they're valid statistics.

The problem that you see in alot of car debates is the pervasive use of anecdotal 'evidence'. Rusting frames and trucks 'breaking in half', how many times did that happen, really? The frame rust was an issue, but how many trucks actually broke in half? I'm not saying it should have to break in half before it's a problem, but statements like trucks breaking in half and deathS plural need to be put in context to be properly understoodd.

By the way, for any of the vehicles that were affected by frame issue, Toyota bought the truck back at full retail price or 150% of the KBB price, can't remember which.

Toyota is not perfect, anyone who think buying a Toyota guarantees a defect free car is an idiot, period. To be honest, the thing that's always intrigued me more about Toyota is not their quality, but their production system and lean methodology and how a single company has affected manufacturing as a whole.

Here's another angle I don't think I've seen anyone else address.

Does anyone here remember WWII? Remember how the US wasn't particularly fond of 'the ****'? I obviously wasn't alive then, but have heard lots of stories from my grandparents. That dislike didn't end overnight.

Think about it, you're a Japanese car company trying to establish a foothold in the US. In order to even break into that market you're going to have to do something spectacular, like make a good quality vehicle. And you're going to have to continue doing that year after year to remain in a market in which you're probably not very welcome.

I'm not saying we're racist or anything, but if someone had told my grandad in 1945 that someday a japanese car company would be the number 1 seller in the US he'd have laughed and said they're going to have to do something pretty damn spectacular to do that.

shawn474

John, their track record isn't based on perception at all. It is based in fact that they won years worth of JD Power awards, safety awards, and the list goes on. They have been one of the best selling car manufacturers for the last 20-25 years for a reason. Say what you want, but this pedal has been put in their car for 5-10 years. If there was a quality issue with these pedals, it is only showing up now and they have been trying to rectify the problem. To say this is a Toyota cover-up is purely speculation. The fact that this happened is tragic to the families and an inconvenience to owners and will cost Toyota some big bucks in the short-term. The long term impact remains to be seen.

Before you tell me how wrong I am and what a fanboy I am and quote many other magazine articles that may or may not be based in fact, I can say nobody wins in this argument. You think you're right; I think I have a dog in the fight. Only time will tell. I don't currently own a Toyota and don't plan on buying a car anytime soon. I have no stake in Toyota.

shadowofnight

Now Honda is going to recall 646,000 cars for fire starting switches, I can hear the executives " Lets do it right now, with the Toyota fiasco... maybe nobody will notice ? "

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35142213/ns/business-autos/?GT1=43001

concealer404

Hopefully i can use this hiccup to score me a nice deal on an MR-S....

polktiger

My understanding is most of "quality ratings" are primarily based on suverys. Asking a consumer "Have you had a serious problem with you car in the last 12 months?" is a highly subjective survey, but I know for a fact that Comsumer Reports asks just that type of question when it surveys its readers, and it claims that those surverys are the single largest determining factor when they issue their ratings for cars. As a result, I don't place any credibility in a Consumer Reports vehicle rating since they really don't do extensive actual quality testing on all the vehicles they rate. I understand that they lack the resources to fully test all models, but if that is the case, then just dramatically scale back the number of cars you rate. Consumer Reports is not the only one, many of the annual awards, including JD Powers awards are based on similar subjective survey systems.

As a consumer, you hear about all the awards a particular car has won, and if you don't know that most of the awards are really lacking in quality of analysis themselves, you assign more importance to the award recipient than is really due. We see the same thing with electronics. How many awards does Monster Cable claim to have? You end up with consumers, that are filling out surveys dealing with quality for an award their car won last year, it stands to reason that the survey respondent will be influenced when answering a totally bogus question like "Did you have any serious problems with your car this year?" Hell, some respondents would actually include changing the oil when they determine how much they spent in "repairs" that year. How reliable is that survey response? But, that response will go into the "quality" rating none the less.

Jstas

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

lotsa stuff was here. But I deleted it 'caue the post would be too long.

I don't want to go through the statistical argument again, I'm tired of it and I can't really say anything that I haven't already said. I don't believe that the surveys are junk. I just don't put any confidence in them to show the real picture. Mainly because I don't know how they are based. I honestly trust the manufacturers buyer surveys more because they not only publish results but they publish collection methods as well as ranking and weighting information. At least with those I know what I'm looking at when I see the results and claims compared with the actual collection method.

I never said Toyota didn't make any changes that weren't great either. But I will point out that the guy who brought the ideas to Toyota was a General Electric engineer who G.E. thought was bonkers and asked him why fix what ain't broken? Also, the "Just-In-Time-Inventory" system that they perfected? Piggly-Wiggly was actually using it for decades before LEAN even became a twinkle in Toyota's eye. That's all history though and anyone can look it up. I would have to look it up in my Org. Behavior books at home to find the names of the people involved though.

But "the ****" thing. My family severed in WW2. My grandfather was in the Pacific Theater and he hated the Japanese, so did my grandmother. My grandmother's brothers were in the European theater. My uncle Edward invaded Normandy and my Uncle Henry invaded Italy. They both hated Germans and all the derogatory names I learned for Italians came from my Uncle Henry. To me, they had valid reasons for their dislike of those people. They didn't act on those hatreds though and that's what made the difference.

Me, I don't hate Germans, Japanese or Italians. I have a friend who is an actual German from Germany. His grand father was a guard in the SS and killed during the war. My friend is one of the most level-headed and accepting people I know. One of the guys I work with is Japanese, he's looking over my shoulder as I write this right now. He knows what his grandfather did. He knows what Japan did and he thinks it sucked. He's an example of how the attitude in Japan has done a 180. Most of the young people in Japan wouldn't think of trying to invade anyone else. Japan is changing, just like the U.S. My boss is Italian, from the old world. He immigrated here with his parents when he was 2. I don't hate any of these people. I don't hold anything against them because none of them were alive when the bad things went down. I'll admit that my grand parents dislike of certain cultures has cause me to have less trust in those cultures as well but I do not hate them. I have no cause to.

I don't hate Toyota because they are Japanese. I don't even hate Toyota. I don't think they deserve the reputation they have and I am severely disappointed at the fact that most people don't see them for what they are. Do they build good stuff? Yes, they do. It's bland and boring in every respect. So is my refrigerator. That's why I don't drive my fridge. But at the same time, what I do hate is the double-standard against domestic makes vs. any foreign make.

We are sheltered in this country. We have lived in our own world for a very long time. We were able to do that because even now, in this nasty recession, America still has an economic might unrivaled in this world. Sure, the EU is a big juggernaut but how many countries did it take to get there? How many of the countries were in ruin50 years ago and willingly took U.S. aid to stand back up and brush themselves off? Now they look down on us and mock us like we aren't even capable of wiping our own drool off of our chins. Japan's economy has been in recession for 20 years at least. They can't get out of it because of their screwed up tax structure and the fact that they keep bailing out companies to "save face". Their economic structure wouldn't even exist if we didn't dump billions in to that country after we bombed it back to the stone age. China has a giant economy but it is completely government subsidized. What happens when the government subsidies run out or the government goes bankrupt? They are already starting to see the effects. If the majority in this country actually hated those countries, why are they still here? Why did we not leave them to rot in their ruins and fail? The U.S. does not hate other countries. They lie, rob, manipulate and act like asses towards us and no matter what, we are always there to lend a hand when needed. If we need a hand, what do we get? "Ha, ha! Stupid Americans, think you're better than everyone else! See what you get?!?!" Meanwhile we stand here dumbfounded and ask WTF?

The U.S. is as fragile as anyone. But we have a long way to fall, much longer than others. But unlike the others, the U.S. usually grabs a hold of something to stop the fall and then rights the ship. Sure we fall behind when it happens but historically, we have caught up. The car companies are an example of that.

Argue when it happened but honestly, back in 1986, the US companies were putting out some pretty good stuff. They did so until the mid 90's when they decided to catch up on the quality that the Japanese had been working on. As a result, they were churning out some nice rides by 2000. But this is 2010 now. A Ford Fusion for $25K is as well appointed as a $40K BMW, drives as well if not better, returns better fuel economy and, in many people's opinion, looks just as good. The same can be said for a Chevy Malibu. Is there a difference, yeah, a BMW is not a Chevy. The point is that the lines between "luxury" and "economy" are getting blurred. You can get a Honda Civic with all the bells and whistles wrapped in leather than a BMW has. Find a 20 year old Civic and try to get it. Things are vastly different and there have been big changes through the whole automotive market, around the globe.

We're spoiled now because what we see as weak and cheap now, our grandparents saw as only for the famously wealthy. We argue and gripe over such minute details that a door handle breaking is considered unacceptable. 30 years ago, a brand new car wouldn't start to drive off the lot in the new owner's hands. the new owner wasn't exactly happy about it but it was chalked up to how cars were. That is a HUGE disparity in problems. Now, if Chrysler uses "Corinthian leather" instead of, I dunno, fine-grain Brazillian leather, people are incensed, dismiss Chrysler as cheap junk and tout the virtues of a company that used a slightly different, not higher but different grain. That's asinine. What's worse is that the prevailing spoiled attitude allows people to be dismissive of large problems like what Toyota is dealing with now just because of "track record". Track record didn't matter in 1974 when the Americans were still building decent vehicles and the Japanese cars were cheap. They cared that the Japanese cars were fuel efficient and cheap. But now, track record matters? Meanwhile Ford, Chrysler and Chevy have been building quality vehicles that are efficient, cheap and reliable and the imports are 10-15% more expensive and people are still buying them claiming arguments from 1982 that aren't valid anymore. When are people going to wake up and realize that this isn't 1982 anymore?

Jstas

shawn474 wrote: »

To say this is a Toyota cover-up is purely speculation.

It's not speculation. Christopher Santucci worked for the NHTSA. In 2008, he took a job with Toyota and used his connections to manipulated the test procedures to produce favorable results for Toyota.

...the new Toyota employee negotiated a deal with his former coworkers at NHTSA to limit the investigation of unintended acceleration claims to instances of one second or less. Santucci said in a deposition that the NHTSA investigation involved 2002 and 2003 Toyota Camry, Solaras and Lexus ES300 models. NHTSA had reportedly received 139 complaints in the 2004 investigation, but found no defects...

It's in the court statements of a lawsuit. It's in the depositions. It's not an article that "may or many not be factual". It's there and available for public viewing. You're just ignoring the facts because they do not support your opinion.

Jstas

shadowofnight wrote: »

Now Honda is going to recall 646,000 cars for fire starting switches, I can hear the executives " Lets do it right now, with the Toyota fiasco... maybe nobody will notice ? "

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35142213/ns/business-autos/?GT1=43001

Hell, I would too. Honda already took heat when the kid died in the ensuing fire from the faulty switches last year. It didn't get much press but the singular incidents don't. But when several hundred thousand people are affected by the recall, that turns in to news. But when a bigger company has a bigger recall, slide in under the radar and limit the damage.

nooshinjohn

deleted... no longer fit.

Jstas

polktiger wrote: »

My understanding is most of "quality ratings" are primarily based on suverys. Asking a consumer "Have you had a serious problem with you car in the last 12 months?" is a highly subjective survey, but I know for a fact that Comsumer Reports asks just that type of question when it surveys its readers, and it claims that those surverys are the single largest determining factor when they issue their ratings for cars. As a result, I don't place any credibility in a Consumer Reports vehicle rating since they really don't do extensive actual quality testing on all the vehicles they rate. I understand that they lack the resources to fully test all models, but if that is the case, then just dramatically scale back the number of cars you rate. Consumer Reports is not the only one, many of the annual awards, including JD Powers awards are based on similar subjective survey systems.

As a consumer, you hear about all the awards a particular car has won, and if you don't know that most of the awards are really lacking in quality of analysis themselves, you assign more importance to the award recipient than is really due. We see the same thing with electronics. How many awards does Monster Cable claim to have? You end up with consumers, that are filling out surveys dealing with quality for an award their car won last year, it stands to reason that the survey respondent will be influenced when answering a totally bogus question like "Did you have any serious problems with your car this year?" Hell, some respondents would actually include changing the oil when they determine how much they spent in "repairs" that year. How reliable is that survey response? But, that response will go into the "quality" rating none the less.

My sentiments exactly.

shawn474

This is just a question: How many faulty pedals have they actually found?

venomclan

Ford halts production of China van with CTS pedal

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN289865920100128

So far the Toyota recall does not break the top 5.

#1 you have Fords 2008 recall of 12 Million 1993-2004 cars and trucks with the cruse control brake switch that caught fire... A few people died and several homes were burned to the ground

#2 you have Ford 1996 Recall of 8.6 million cars and truck with ignition switch fires.

#3 you have GM 1971 recall of 6.7 Million cars with bad motor mounts that would fail and then cause the car to accelerate... unintended like, deja vu.. Several deaths.

#4 in fouth spot, in 1981 GM recalled 5.8 Million cars when it was discover that the bolts that held on the front suspension of "G" Body cars could come un bolted. People died.

#5 Is either this one, or Ford's 1971 recall of 4.1 Million car seat belts that came unbuckled and basically fell apart. Not that anyone wore seatbelts in 1971.

While this hurts Toyota a lot, it is the US dealers, parts suppliers, factory workers etc. that will take the brunt of halted production, in the worst time in history to have this happen. This is bad for everyone.
Venom

Jstas

venomclan wrote: »

Ford halts production of China van with CTS pedal

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN289865920100128

So far the Toyota recall does not break the top 5.

#1 you have Fords 2008 recall of 12 Million 1993-2004 cars and trucks with the cruse control brake switch that caught fire... A few people died and several homes were burned to the ground

#2 you have Ford 1996 Recall of 8.6 million cars and truck with ignition switch fires.

#3 you have GM 1971 recall of 6.7 Million cars with bad motor mounts that would fail and then cause the car to accelerate... unintended like, deja vu.. Several deaths.

#4 in fouth spot, in 1981 GM recalled 5.8 Million cars when it was discover that the bolts that held on the front suspension of "G" Body cars could come un bolted. People died.

#5 Is either this one, or Ford's 1971 recall of 4.1 Million car seat belts that came unbuckled and basically fell apart. Not that anyone wore seatbelts in 1971.

While this hurts Toyota a lot, it is the US dealers, parts suppliers, factory workers etc. that will take the brunt of halted production, in the worst time in history to have this happen. This is bad for everyone.
Venom

I never said it was the worst but it is the biggest for Toyota and it comes at a very, very bad time. What is unprecedented though is that Toyota has idled pretty much every plant it has in the U.S. and stopped production in the U.S. completely. The recall also affects more than one car. The entire line up of vehicles is affected. That's a pretty big deal. Also, there are two recalls here, not just the pedals/floor mats but also the "unintended acceleration" problem. They are different recalls manifesting in a similar problem of "unintended acceleration".


Oh and check out post #98 in this thread for your news story.

venomclan

Jstas wrote: »

I never said it was the worst but it is the biggest for Toyota and it comes at a very, very bad time. What is unprecedented though is that Toyota has idled pretty much every plant it has in the U.S. and stopped production in the U.S. completely. The recall also affects more than one car. The entire line up of vehicles is affected. That's a pretty big deal. Also, there are two recalls here, not just the pedals/floor mats but also the "unintended acceleration" problem. They are different recalls manifesting in a similar problem of "unintended acceleration".

Oh and check out post #98 in this thread for your news story.

Who said I was referring to you? Do you have a vested interest in the destruction of Toyota? It seems to be your agenda.

concealer404

Technically, we ALL have a vested interest in the destruction of Toyota. Why do you think GM is offering the $1000 incentive for Toyota trades.

It's how the government is giving back to you for the bailouts!!!

dorourke07

Jstas wrote: »

Where is the outrage that Toyota has snookered the public, not just Americans but those in Europe and South America as well? Where are the people calling for fines, tariffs and punishments? Where are the people saying "I hope Toyota fails, they deserve it!" Where are they? Why am I the only one who seems to be pissed off about it?QUOTE]

I am with you man. As part of my job I am fortunate to travel throughout Europe and Asia and Toyota does not have a high reputation in Europe or China. GM is #1 in China and Europe will not deal with Toyota because the Japanese market is mostly closed to foreign makers. The US is the only country that they have luxury of such a stellar reputation. It was easy to control quality when they were a tiny company 20 years ago. Now they are as big as GM, Ford and VW and its not as easy. GM and Ford learned their lessons 20 years ago and have been improving ever since but have never recovered the reputation. Toyota is now in the same boat and we will see if people ask them step up or will they get a free pass.

shawn474

dorourke07 wrote: »

Toyota is now in the same boat and we will see if people ask them step up or will they get a free pass.

I am quite sure it will not take people to ASK Toyota to step up. I will bet that they have been in meetings addressing these oversights and shortcomings and have remedies to them already. I hope the consumer isn't naive enough to "give them a free pass" and just buy a Toyota because it's a Toyota.

nooshinjohn

venomclan wrote: »

Ford halts production of China van with CTS pedal

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN289865920100128

So far the Toyota recall does not break the top 5.

#1 you have Fords 2008 recall of 12 Million 1993-2004 cars and trucks with the cruse control brake switch that caught fire... A few people died and several homes were burned to the ground


#2 you have Ford 1996 Recall of 8.6 million cars and truck with ignition switch fires.

#3 you have GM 1971 recall of 6.7 Million cars with bad motor mounts that would fail and then cause the car to accelerate... unintended like, deja vu.. Several deaths.

#4 in fouth spot, in 1981 GM recalled 5.8 Million cars when it was discover that the bolts that held on the front suspension of "G" Body cars could come un bolted. People died.

#5 Is either this one, or Ford's 1971 recall of 4.1 Million car seat belts that came unbuckled and basically fell apart. Not that anyone wore seatbelts in 1971.

While this hurts Toyota a lot, it is the US dealers, parts suppliers, factory workers etc. that will take the brunt of halted production, in the worst time in history to have this happen. This is bad for everyone.
Venom

It is currently number 2 if you did some fact checking...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/30/business/30toyota.html

And that number is STILL GROWING!

AsSiMiLaTeD

^^^ I'm pretty sure his numbers were US recalls only, just by looking at the list, but I could be wrong

nooshinjohn

U.S. numbers for the problems alone would put it in the top 5 if you consider the linkage to the 2007 recall that affected Lexus/Camry as being part of the same problem. I know the NTSA does.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Ok, isn't that just exactly what Venom posted, in the top 5?

It's still behind other Ford and GM recalls, so what's your point, that Toyota screwed up but not as badly as Ford did during the same approximate timeframe? I can't argue that really, just curious what the point is that you're trying to make?

shawn474

"In addition, the Ford Motor Company said Thursday that it had stopped production of some commercial vehicles in China because they used the same accelerator pedals built by CTS, based in Elkhart, Ind., the supplier whose products led to Toyota’s recent recall."

If this is true, then Ford dropped the ball on their quality control as well? Seems there is a lot more to this story.........

nooshinjohn

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

Ok, isn't that just exactly what Venom posted, in the top 5?

It's still behind other Ford and GM recalls, so what's your point, that Toyota screwed up but not as badly as Ford did during the same approximate timeframe? I can't argue that really, just curious what the point is that you're trying to make?

The Toyota recall is now number two on the list of all time recalls is my point. Venom's post stated that they were not even close to being among the top 5. By the time they are done, it may well climb to number one. My second point is that it is about time that we recognize that foreign companies are just as likely to make mistakes, HUGE MISTAKES, as any American company ever was in the past.