Toyota shuts down production and halts sales

shawn474

Face wrote: »

I'd LOVE to know where you found that statistic.

Admittedly, I pulled that one out of my ****, but I base it on the fact that I see 20 Toyotas or Hondas per Chevy or Ford on the road every day on my hour and 15 minute commute to and from work in one of the busiest corridors in the country. My "3-4 times the volume" was based on a loose estimate that allowed for error.

Jstas

shawn474 wrote: »

We can all spin this any way you want. Toyota has made MORE reliable than Chevy or GM or any other brand (besides Honda) for a very long time. Quote anything you want - the fact remains that when you sell 3 or 4 times the volume, you will have more problems. It's the nature of statistics. If you think it will hurt them, that's fine. Only time will tell. EVERY, and I mean EVERY, car manufacturer has their share of problems and cover-ups. Audi had it, VW has had it, Chevy and Ford would have kept the American market if they didn't produce crap for a lot of years. The fact that they responded at all is a step in the right direction, whether it was "forced" or not.

You seem to have a grudge against anyone who buys a Toyota and considers it to be a good car. I don't currently own one, but have owned 4 Toyotas and would not hesitate to buy one again. I am not married to one auto manufacturer and it's up to the buyer to do the INDEPENDENT research. If Toyota loses customers over this, it is their fault alone. If they lose repeat customers, the same goes. But, I suspect, that once these issues are addressed their quality control will increase and as such probably produce another reliable and dependent car that people will like to own. YMMV

What are you trying to say? Because if your argument is that Toyota makes 3 or 4 times the volume and that means that Toyota will have more problems, you're a hypocrite. Because for decades, GM outproduced Toyota and out sold Toyota by a very wide margin. That being said, statistically your chances of hitting a bad GM product were higher because there were just more out there. 5 years ago, that argument was dismissed by the foreign car fans as not being an acceptable excuse. GM still made junk cars no matter what. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and Toyota out paces GM instead, all of a sudden the argument is ok? That is the very definition of hypocrisy.

No, not every manufacturer has had their share of cover ups. You need to check your facts.

As far as accusing me of having an issue with a Toyota buyer, I do not. You and anyone else who thinks that can get that thought out of your head. What I have a problem with is the absolute hypocrisy with which people in general operate and your post above exemplifies that to a tee. Instead of addressing the arguments and factual evidence put forth, you would rather put your head in the sand, ignore the issues and then call me a big doodoohead because I think your logic is flawed and point it out. Then, THEN you have the audacity to claim to you are not "married to a brand" yet, in the same freaking sentence, you tell me that you will remain loyal to Toyota because you think they make better cars when the damning evidence contrary to that claim is staring you in the face! You don't have to change your mind. I don't care. But don't sit here and throw arguments that have been levied in favor of non-Toyota and non-Honda brands back in my face after you have dismissed them as folly. Above all don't sit here and tell me that I have it in for Toyota owners just because I chose to post information about a fairly big deal in the automotive world. I posted news stories that are critical of Toyota. Just because you have a problem with me doesn't mean I'm out to get you. Keep in mind also that I did not start the thread. I just added to it.

If you want to attack someone, go attack the news media. They are the ones writing the stories that make Toyota look bad. Then again, given recent events, Toyota doesn't seem to need any help accomplishing that.

polktiger

Don't know the 2009 numbers, but in 2008 the US sales for Toyota was about 8.9 million units to GM's 8.3 million units.

Ford and Honda follow. I don't have their hard #s, but US market share is ratio is closer to 1:1 when you compare GM/Ford to Honda/Toyota. Now, when you just look at sedans, the numbers will get a lot different.

shawn474

Jstas wrote: »

Just because you have a problem with me doesn't mean I'm out to get you. Keep in mind also that I did not start the thread. I just added to it.

I assure you that I have no problam at all with you. You said it yourself - GM used to outsell Toyota. If Toyota didn't make a good reliable product, they never would have overtaken the domestics in terms of sales and reliability.

I guess the people (and I am not saying you ever said this) who say it is unpatriotic to buy foreign cars really grind on me. I work damn hard for my money and I will spend it on something that is reliable, will last, is safe and looks good. Domestic automakers lost sight of this for a long time and only recently have started to address it. The foreign manufacturers exploited this and reaped its rewards. The "spin" is from the media who can skew the facts in the favor of whoever they are in cahoots with. It is harder and harder to find independent, factual research anymore. If your comments are based on real facts, then Toyota will take a heavy hit and may never recover.

Again, Jstas, I have no problem with you. I think you have a lot of knowledge on the subject and bring some good arguments to the table. I am just saying that in my experience, Toyota is a good company that has made an error. They are fixing this error (whether forced or not) and only time will tell if they suffer from it. Make no mistake, I feel horribly for the families of the people affected by this defect and Toyota should do what is right in tking care of those families affected.

shawn474

polktiger wrote: »

Now, when you just look at sedans, the numbers will get a lot different.

Agreed, if memory serves correct, the numbers dramatically sway to Toyota / Honda when you take out the pick-up truck / SUV sales.

AsSiMiLaTeD

After hearing a couple guys at work almost kill each other over a similar debate, I now realize how dumb the Toyota vs whoever really is.

Look, Toyota is just another car company, they're not perfect, and neither is anyone else. Companies screw up and cover up all the time - if you think there's a car company out there who hasn't screwed up and tried to cover it up then I have a bridge to sell you.

The problem is that many Toyota owners tend to have fierce loyalty and tend to have this perfect picture of Toyota. I know because I've been in that same spot. People are reacting to this in a very similar fashion to how Apple owners react to criticism of their product or how all the rabbid Tiger Woods fan reacted when that story broke a couple months back - in one word, DENIAL.

The fact is Toyota is just another company run by human beings. Yeah the culture may be different, but at the core they're still self-serving human beings who are not perfect and who aren't always going to make the 'right' decision. People just need to get it through their heads that they're not perfect.

Like with anything else, people tend to place too much emphasis on the brand and not enough emphasis on the product when they buy a car.

Jstas

Holy hell, it's like parts supplier VD!

From the Wall Street Journal:

* JANUARY 28, 2010, 2:10 P.M. ET

Ford Halts Production of Vehicle in China
BY MATTHEW DOLAN

Ford Motor Co. has stopped production of a full-size commercial vehicle in China after discovering that the gas pedal used came from the supplier involved in the recall at Toyota Motor Co.

The production halt affects the diesel version of its full-size Transit Classic commercial vehicle that Ford makes in China ...

Original article incase you're a WSJ Online subscriber:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704194504575030891636493402.html

The Ford Transit Classic is a previous generation panel van designed and sold by Ford of Europe. The one made in China is a diesel version on a heavy duty chassis. It's used for lots of stuff from work vans, ambulances, buses, RV's and even limos. It's a versatile chassis and the current Transit Connect from Ford is related.

The Transit Classic is only sold in Asian and South and Central American markets. However, the current generation of the Transit series of vans is due to replace the Ford E-series/Econoline full-sized van in North American markets in 2012 as a 2013 model. I haven't heard yet if the heavier chassied E-series SuperDuty will continue on as an option for those needing larger payload and towing weight capacity. The Transit has a few 4 cylinder diesel options which are lighter and more fuel efficient than the E-series/Econoline.

Jstas

It just gets uglier:

From Autoblog:

Did NHTSA know of Toyota woes back in 2004?

by Chris Shunk on Jan 28th 2010 at 2:31PM

From the "This story just keeps getting uglier" department comes a new bit of information concerning Toyota and its growing sticky pedal problem. The Detroit Free Press is reporting that Toyota and the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration were looking into the problem back in 2004, but an interesting twist led the investigation down a path that ultimately turned up nothing.

The Freep says that this early investigation was strictly limited to incidents of unintended acceleration lasting one second or less, which strikes us as odd considering prolonged periods unintended acceleration are a lot more dangerous than a blip of the throttle. And this is where the story gets a bit tricky. The Freep reports that a 2008 lawsuit stemming from an alleged unintended acceleration-related death of a woman driving a 2005 Camry says that the decision was made to limit the investigation right after a former NHTSA employee, Christopher Santucci, took a job with Toyota.

The lawsuit alleges that the new Toyota employee negotiated a deal with his former coworkers at NHTSA to limit the investigation of unintended acceleration claims to instances of one second or less. Santucci said in a deposition that the NHTSA investigation involved 2002 and 2003 Toyota Camry, Solaras and Lexus ES300 models. NHTSA had reportedly received 139 complaints in the 2004 investigation, but found no defects.

Now that Toyota has officially recalled millions of vehicles, the question remains whether these older models will eventually be recalled as well. The short answer is that we have no idea, but former NHTSA head Joan Claybrook feels that the government safety agency should have taken unintended acceleration claims more seriously in the past.

The Detroit Free Press article: http://www.freep.com/article/20100128/BUSINESS01/1280466/1319/Camry-red-flag-raised-in-2004


It's damning for the NHTSA for rolling over and not sticking to their guns in the original investigation but also for the Toyota executive who talked his way out of a big deal problem like that. What's worse is that Toyota might have to recall an entire decade and 3 generations worth of cars to fix this problem.

I certainly hope people are held accountable at Toyota for this. Toyoda thought he was taking the reigns of a healthy company. Now he has to deal with this. Sucks to be him!

It's like somebody opened the truth dam and it's all coming out.

Danny Tse

Jstas wrote: »

Toyoda thought he was taking the reigns of a healthy company. Now he has to deal with this. Sucks to be him!

New Toyota President Akio Toyoda knows what has been happening.

“Customers bought our cars because they thought they were the safest. But now we have given them cause for grave concern. I can’t begin to express my remorse.”

He also said that Toyota is betraying its roots as a quality automaker.

Jstas

Danny Tse wrote: »

New Toyota President Akio Toyoda knows what has been happening.



He also said that Toyota is betraying its roots as a quality automaker.

I wasn't exactly referring to that but more to the Toyota executive exploiting his personal connections with NHTSA staffers to reduce testing to a specific instance that didn't show any results that would reinforce safety concerns and trigger a recall. If that guy who did that is still with the company, I sincerely hope he gets a reprimand that results in termination from his job because that is just incredibly embarrassing. Especially since the related problems would have prevented the death of that family if the problems were caught back in 2004.

Demiurge

There's a large conflict of interest with the government leaning on an auto manufacturer to halt production of vehicles when it's the principal shareholder in a direct competitor, GM. I'm not saying there's any conspiracy afoot here, but it's another glaring reason why the government should not be running businesses.

Did the government get involved in telling Ford/Firestone what to do in or around 2001 with the Ford Explorers and Firestone tires? I honestly don't recall (no pun intended).

shawn474

demiurge wrote: »

there's a large conflict of interest with the government leaning on an auto manufacturer to halt production of vehicles when it's the principal shareholder in a direct competitor, gm. I'm not saying there's any conspiracy afoot here, but it's another glaring reason why the government should not be running businesses.

..+1

nooshinjohn

Demiurge wrote: »

Did the government get involved in telling Ford/Firestone what to do in or around 2001 with the Ford Explorers and Firestone tires? I honestly don't recall (no pun intended).

Yes actually, the NHTSB was all over that one. ^^^

concealer404

How's about my Baja John?

nooshinjohn

it's not a Turbo...
I am looking for one though! I have a guy that may be trading in a dark blue one this weekend.

tonyb

Demiurge wrote: »

There's a large conflict of interest with the government leaning on an auto manufacturer to halt production of vehicles when it's the principal shareholder in a direct competitor, GM. I'm not saying there's any conspiracy afoot here, but it's another glaring reason why the government should not be running businesses.

Did the government get involved in telling Ford/Firestone what to do in or around 2001 with the Ford Explorers and Firestone tires? I honestly don't recall (no pun intended).

I was thinking the same thing. If it was any other buisness, you'd have lawyers all over jumping up and down. Definately a conflict of interest, intentional or not, and exactly why you can't have big brother picking the winners and losers.

shepx2

Demiurge wrote: »

There's a large conflict of interest with the government leaning on an auto manufacturer to halt production of vehicles when it's the principal shareholder in a direct competitor, GM. I'm not saying there's any conspiracy afoot here, but it's another glaring reason why the government should not be running businesses. .

+2. Implications are pretty scary.

sucks2beme

Sounds like a great time to buy a cheap used Toyota!
I really need to go check out the pedal thing. I mean, really,
it's a damn pedal. It's not rocket science. I'm sure there's at least
a couple of workarounds to avoid the problem. Why would people
dump a perfectly good vehicle in a panic and most likely large
money loss instead of doing a bit of investigation? Pull the damn
carpet, mod the pedal, whatever. In a few months they'll send you a
note and you'll take it in for a real fix. Years ago autos were so
unsafe it was scary. My first car had no safety belts and the whole
inside of the car was solid metal. Hitting your head on that dash
was going to do major damage. And that steering wheel tended to spear
people through the chest in big accidents.
Damn bunch of pansies!:D

tonyb

sucks2beme wrote: »

Sounds like a great time to buy a cheap used Toyota!
I really need to go check out the pedal thing. I mean, really,
it's a damn pedal. It's not rocket science. I'm sure there's at least
a couple of workarounds to avoid the problem. Why would people
dump a perfectly good vehicle in a panic and most likely large
money loss instead of doing a bit of investigation? Pull the damn
carpet, mod the pedal, whatever. In a few months they'll send you a
note and you'll take it in for a real fix. Years ago autos were so
unsafe it was scary. My first car had no safety belts and the whole
inside of the car was solid metal. Hitting your head on that dash
was going to do major damage. And that steering wheel tended to spear
people through the chest in big accidents.
Damn bunch of pansies!:D

....and we drove with one foot out the window,our ding a lings hangin' out,flippin' cigar ashes on the floor, with a ton of boozed up pals jumping around like mexican jumping beans. How did we ever survive...:)

cnh

A question? Was it not said in the news that Japanese made Toyotas did NOT have these problems and that only American made vehicles did...just checking....

And that the vehicles that did have this problem were due to contracted parts from India that were substandard which were NOT used in Japan?

I may have some of this wrong...but it seems to me that the question we have to ask is WHO made the 'decision' to use **** parts in the U.S.?

That sounds like a Corporate decision similar to many decisions we've seen in the U.S. in the last couple of years? To me? Is there an American CEO for Toyota U.S.A.....I am kidding to an extent but this sounds eerily "familiar"!

cnh

Danny Tse

cnh wrote: »

A question? Was it not said in the news that Japanese made Toyotas did NOT have these problems and that only American made vehicles did...just checking....

According toyotanation.com, North American cars got the part from CTS whereas the Japan-made cars got the part from Denso. I am guessing the part is the same with the only difference being where it was made.

concealer404

Danny Tse wrote: »

According toyotanation.com, North American cars got the part from CTS whereas the Japan-made cars got the part from Denso. I am guessing the part is the same with the only difference being where it was made.

Exactly.

The fix that's been put into motion?

Remove the American-made pedal, and install the Japanese-made pedal.

It's not even a drive by wire problem. The American pedals are sticking and killing people. It's a hardware problem.

cnh wrote:

I may have some of this wrong...but it seems to me that the question we have to ask is WHO made the 'decision' to use **** parts in the U.S.?

Great question. My Toyota has all Denso parts on it. I guess it's whoever decided to have CTS produce the pedals. Maybe they were listening to all the clamoring of "buy American" and trying to give something back to the country that buys their cars, by farming out something that a Japanese company would normally produce. (Yes, i know that's surely not the reason, it was probably just cheaper to go with CTS, i'm just being cynical.)

polktiger

concealer404 wrote: »

Remove the American-made pedal, and install the Japanese-made pedal.

Article in our local paper indicated that yes CTS is an American company, but the part was actually manufactured in a Canadian plant. Regardless of the part's origin it passed Toyota QC inspections.

concealer404

polktiger wrote: »

Article in our local paper indicated that yes CTS is an American company, but the part was actually manufactured in a Canadian plant. Regardless of the part's origin it passed Toyota QC inspections.

Yes, this is true.

As for the QC, being that there's probably thousands upon thousands of vehicles with these pedals, and probably a relatively small percentage that are actually causing problems, i wouldn't be surprised if QC could have tested hundreds without finding problems.

But that's pure speculation on my part. I can't pretend to know everything about how Toyota's QC tests these parts.

Jstas

concealer404 wrote: »

Exactly.

The fix that's been put into motion?

Remove the American-made pedal, and install the Japanese-made pedal.

It's not even a drive by wire problem. The American pedals are sticking and killing people. It's a hardware problem.



Great question. My Toyota has all Denso parts on it. I guess it's whoever decided to have CTS produce the pedals. Maybe they were listening to all the clamoring of "buy American" and trying to give something back to the country that buys their cars, by farming out something that a Japanese company would normally produce. (Yes, i know that's surely not the reason, it was probably just cheaper to go with CTS, i'm just being cynical.)

BZZZT! Wrong. CTS has redesigned the part and is churning out redesigned parts as we speak. It's in the articles posted earlier in the thread. If you had read them, you would have known that. The extra production surplus from the Denso plants has been redirected to recall purposes until the CTS plants can catch up.

The pedals are not in North America alone, the CTS plant supplies manufacturing plants in Europe as well as Thailand.


The CTS plant had a greater capacity than the Denso plant and the tariffs due to NAFTA were greatly reduced which made it decidedly cheaper to build here and ship globally. Companies do not bow to emotion, it's not profitable. Toyota doesn't care about giving anything back unless they get some profit out of it. Besides, the U.S. is the largest automotive market and Toyota is building the pedals in Canada. Toyota is not giving anything back to the U.S. Your logic is broken so we must chalk your inaccurate statements up to your cynicism which is sickening.

Why don't you try this for once in your life? Check your facts and stop talking out of your ****. It honestly works. People will call you a jerk but that's only because they can't tell you you're wrong so they resort to 6th grade politics. You might actually come off the bozo list at that point because then your posts would have at least a modicum of value.

Jstas

polktiger wrote: »

Article in our local paper indicated that yes CTS is an American company, but the part was actually manufactured in a Canadian plant. Regardless of the part's origin it passed Toyota QC inspections.

Exactly.

AsSiMiLaTeD

So I'm confused, is Toyota building the pedals, or is CTS? I know Toyota ultimately decides what goes in their cars, that's not the question, but I'd like to know who actually builds the pedals.

I'm asking because if Toyota builds the pedals as john stated, then what the hell difference does it make if they're Denso or CTS, they're still built by Toyota.

Jstas

Uh-oh...

From Autoblog:

Breaking: House to hold hearing on Toyota recalls

by John Neff on Jan 28th 2010 at 5:50PM

As it's wont to do, the U.S. House of Representatives has decided to investigate Toyota over its recent recalls involving possible unintended acceleration caused by both floor mats and defective accelerator pedal mechanisms. The House Energy and Commerce committee will hold a hearing on February 25 to "examine the persistent consumer complaints of sudden unintended acceleration in vehicles manufactured by Toyota Motor Corporation," this according to committee chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif (above). Not only will Toyota be on the hot seat, but the committee will also investigate how well the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has handled the situation.

The Detroit News reports that Toyota officials already met with members of the committee on Wednesday. They were asked to provide the committee with information and documents and will be expected to answer questions at the hearing about when they first learned of cases involving unintended acceleration in their vehicles and what steps were taken to safeguard customers who might be at risk. They'll probably also be asked about the connection between NHTSA and Toyota through one Mr. Christopher Santucci, a former NHTSA employee who took a job with Toyota around the same time these issues were first being investigated.

It's also fair to point out that this isn't the first time a recall has gained the attention of Capitol Hill. The recall involving Firestone tires on Ford Explorers in 2000 sparked Congressional hearings, for instance.

Here is the Detroit News article link:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100128/AUTO01/1280489/1361/House-to-hold-hearing-on-Toyota-recalls--safety-issues

From Detroit News:

Congress will hold the first hearings on Toyota Motor Corp.'s recall woes next month.

House Energy and Commerce chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and subcommittee chairman Bart Stupak, D-Menominee, said the committee will hold a Feb. 25 hearing "to examine the persistent consumer complaints of sudden unintended acceleration in vehicles manufactured by the Toyota Motor Corporation."

"Like many consumers, I am concerned by the seriousness and scope of Toyota's recent recall announcements," Waxman said. "I look forward to learning more about the steps Toyota is taking to address safety defects, and I hope that the automaker will continue to cooperate with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to get unsafe vehicles off our roads. Our hearing will help us better understand how quickly and effectively Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration responded to consumer complaints about the safety of the recalled Toyota vehicles."

Advertisement

Toyota said it will cooperate with Congress.

"Toyota appreciates the opportunity to inform the committee about matters related to the recent recalls of Toyota and Lexus vehicles and our efforts to address the situation for our customers," spokeswoman Martha Voss said. "Helping ensure the safety of our customers and restoring confidence in Toyota are very important to our company and we pledge our full cooperation with the committee."...

Like what was said, it's not often that this happens but it does happen and it's not necessarily a good thing. Firestone got big time fines for the Ford Exploder recall and Ford had gotten levied fines as well but appealed them in court and won. The deposition took like 7 months and tied up Ford production cycles for a large loss that year. Ford also spent a good deal of time in a civil suit against Firestone to determine damages. I think the only saving grace that didn't put Ford in the red that year was the year before the Super Duty was released and the Excursion was released that year as well. Both were high profit margin vehicles and they were flying off the lots.

jflail2

This is Toyota's "tylenol escapade." Tylenol did the same thing (albeit I don't think they had 5 years of knowledge...), came to the public and said, we F'd up, we're recalling our product and starting with a clean slate.

If this is Toyota's only speedbump, I don't see this being a death nail or anything. Too many years of a strong track record...

Jstas

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

So I'm confused, is Toyota building the pedals, or is CTS? I know Toyota ultimately decides what goes in their cars, that's not the question, but I'd like to know who actually builds the pedals.

I'm asking because if Toyota builds the pedals as john stated, then what the hell difference does it make if they're Denso or CTS, they're still built by Toyota.

CTS redesigned the pedals and is building them. Since Toyota production has been stopped, there is a production surplus from Denso so the surplus is being used to start recall work until the CTS plant can get production up to speed and start filling needs.

Toyota outsources the production of the parts because they are a complex assembly and it would cost too much for them to make the pedals themselves. There would be a large commitment to real estate, retooling and worker training. CTS and Denso are already set up to easily make parts so Toyota designs the part and takes it to it's outsourced producers. They in turn modify the designs to fit production capability. Toyota should then review and approve the designs as part of a quality control process. Once the assembly design passes, it goes in to production. A small initial run is done and tested to make sure things came out as designed. If it passes, full speed ahead on production. If it doesn't, it gets tweaked and another run and test. That process is done until it passes. During production, samples are usually pulled from the line and tested randomly for quality control.

Now I don't know for sure if Toyota does that but I do know Quality Control processes quite well since I did QC on software for the AEGIS Weapons System for 4 years. That was how we handled the QC process. If they handle it differently, I would be suspicious of the processes they do use until I had a chance to review it.