Cable Break-in/adjustment period
Comments
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So you are still ignoring bias. My hearing is fine, I still hear up to 18Khz. You?
Yes I did, you just ignored it. What would be even better, is if Audioquest could come up with a logical answer, after all, it's their claim, not mine.
William,
The reason you have very little creditability is because "you" make claims that are just that "claims" with nothing to back it up.
As for AQ they have the logical answers posted on the web site. As do the majority of other manufactures.
My ears work better than your because I can hear the differences between cables/IC and you can't. You can't argue that because you admit you can't hear the differences. -
What FACE posted is a perfect example of you making "claims" that hold no water whats so ever.
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I have done plenty of blind testing where a friend switched the cables and I did not know which was in play...it wasn't hard to hear the differences, discuss them, and then find out which was which.
"Expectational bias" works both ways, you know...Steve Carlson
Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten -
Anyone trying to do A/B or double blind test should try high sensitivity speakers with at least 100dB sensitivity. May be the subtle differences can be heard since speakers are sensors to the ears.
There are cables that makes a difference and there are cables that doesn't make a difference depending on the type of materials, how good the material is purified, what kind of consideration is taken to preserve signal integrity, and how well it's insulation is made to prevent outside noise; etc.
Some are based on Engineering Marvels and some are pure marketing BS. The Cables With very High $ price tag may have both the Engineering Marvels and the marketing BS.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
William,
The reason you have very little creditability is because "you" make claims that are just that "claims" with nothing to back it up.
Where's your backup? Or faces for that matter? All you have stated is "I can hear it" over and over. You do realise that that is not evidence at all, don't you? Give me one link to a successfull DBT, or a single peer reviewed paper that states there are audible differences between cables, let alone break-in of said cables.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184&highlight=speaker+wire+test
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789
http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html -
Synergy is key, at least thats one of the things I have learned.
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Where's your backup? Or faces for that matter? All you have stated is "I can hear it" over and over. You do realise that that is not evidence at all, don't you? Give me one link to a successfull DBT, or a single peer reviewed paper that states there are audible differences between cables, let alone break-in of said cables.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184&highlight=speaker+wire+test
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789
http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html
Do you know how to use the Forum Search feature here? Use it and you may learn something. -
I have done plenty of blind testing where a friend switched the cables and I did not know which was in play...it wasn't hard to hear the differences, discuss them, and then find out which was which.
"Expectational bias" works both ways, you know...
So you think it's a DBT when a friend switches the cables? Not hardly. -
William,
The reason you have very little creditability is because "you" make claims that are just that "claims" with nothing to back it up.
As for AQ they have the logical answers posted on the web site. As do the majority of other manufactures.
My ears work better than your because I can hear the differences between cables/IC and you can't. You can't argue that because you admit you can't hear the differences.
I think he has way more credibility than someone whose sole "research" is "i can hear a difference" and some advertising from the company who sells the cable. Why can you not just post some sort of peer reviewed paper, something from a textbook, or anything other than AQ info. Everyone and their mom knows that advertising for any product stretches the truth or flat out makes it up. -
[QUOTE=cnh;
The PLACEBO effect is real and science has a piss poor explanation of WHY and HOW it occurs. Consider that the placebo effect has VERY real effects in MEDICINE! So you're testing a drug and guess what 24% of your population given the PLACEBO actually GET BETTER! Now how did that happen? It's PSYCHOLOGICAL...WELL HOW EXACTLY does that work!
cnh[/QUOTE]
This all true and has been documented. and is fascinating. People given a placebos have changed there body chemistry and improved just like the people given the good working drug. The mind is more powerfull than we think maybe. The brain has the ability to produce powerful pharmaceuticals. This would explain the placebo effect and could be an answer. The placebo effect could explain why the witch doctor with his mask and dancing could help peoples brain produce the required drug to improve their health. Also consider that the setting of the large hospital building and the big tube you slide into may have an effect on the person which could also be a strong placebo effect.
To my knowledge no one has demonstrated that they can tell the differance between speaker wires with the same gauge. The test is very difficult to set up properly. If any one knows of sech a scientific test that shows that some one is able to tell the difference between speaker wires please tell me. These BD tests are not like what F1 is describing. You can listen to each speaker wire for as Long as you want with Any music you want and switch back and forth between them for as long as you want and even know what wire is playing to learn the system characteristics.
No one can tell the difference yet. -
I think he has way more credibility than someone whose sole "research" is "i can hear a difference" and some advertising from the company who sells the cable. Why can you not just post some sort of peer reviewed paper, something from a textbook, or anything other than AQ info. Everyone and their mom knows that advertising for any product stretches the truth or flat out makes it up.
Your another one! Do you know how to use the Forum Search here? Use it and do some reading and you never know you may learn something.
Or are you too lazy to do it? There is a lot of information available here that is available to you.
What is more important than someone actually hearing a difference? I think nothing could be more important because thats what this is all about. A textbook you gotta be kidding. Thats why guys like you have no creditability. -
This all true and has been documented. and is fascinating. People given a placebos have changed there body chemistry and improved just like the people given the good working drug. The mind is more powerfull than we think maybe. The brain has the ability to produce powerful pharmaceuticals. This would explain the placebo effect and could be an answer. The placebo effect could explain why the witch doctor with his mask and dancing could help peoples brain produce the required drug to improve their health. Also consider that the setting of the large hospital building and the big tube you slide into may have an effect on the person which could also be a strong placebo effect.
To my knowledge no one has demonstrated that they can tell the differance between speaker wires with the same gauge. The test is very difficult to set up properly. If any one knows of sech a scientific test that shows that some one is able to tell the difference between speaker wires please tell me. These BD tests are not like what F1 is describing. You can listen to each speaker wire for as Long as you want with Any music you want and switch back and forth between them for as long as you want and even know what wire is playing to learn the system characteristics.
No one can tell the difference yet.
I gotta tell you, your a trip. -
What is more important than someone actually hearing a difference? I think nothing could be more important because thats what this is all about. A textbook you gotta be kidding. Thats why guys like you have no creditability.
Who actually heard a difference? Can you verify it in any way? Your complete ignorance of the science and research of the subject gives you no credibility at all.
So can you "back up" your claims, or not? Just one link, or are you too lazy? -
Your another one! Do you know how to use the Forum Search here? Use it and do some reading and you never know you may learn something.
Or are you too lazy to do it? There is a lot of information available here that is available to you.
What is more important than someone actually hearing a difference? I think nothing could be more important because thats what this is all about. A textbook you gotta be kidding. Thats why guys like you have no creditability.
Sorry. I suppose being a chemical engineer with a firm background in the physical sciences also gives me no credibility. Me and my damn textbooks too! -
Would you take engineering advice from a psychologist?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Would you take engineering advice from a psychologist?
I'd probably take physics advice from an engineer. -
That fact is, stop posting worthless garbage without a research proving that dielectrics change over time which causing an audio signal to change, and then unchanges after no use.. Just stop. No more posts without facts.
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Easy to settle... If/when you're in the Boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think I have enough old Rat Shack and M* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. speaker cable and ICs from BJC and Signal Cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ICs here, but I'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.
No, I don't think it is easy to settle.
I would like to begin by saying that blind trials are valid experimental tools for some situations and not valid for others. I do not think they are valid for evaluating audio equipment. I will explain why.
Blind tests exist to do two things:
1. Remove observer bias (i.e., the observer is influenced by the expectation that a known attribute of an item will produce favorable results or the observer has some conscious or unconscious preference for a specific attribute).
Example: An observer is asked to compare two amplifiers: one with a sticker showing a price of $10,000 and another with a sticker showing a price of $1,000. The listener could have high expectations that the $10,000 amp will be so much better. Similar to this, a brothel customer might have an expectation that a $1,000 an hour hooker would provide a better "experience" than a $100 an hour hooker.and
2. Remove placebo effect (i.e., the listener is "tricked" into perceiving or realizing a non-existent benefit). Placebo effect depends on how susceptible the subject is to the power of suggestion.
Example: The marketing literature for an audio company's top of the line interconnect cable promises that it provides twice as much clarity for only a 20% increase in cost over the company's next lowest model. In actuality, the top of the line cable only has a prettier jacket and shinier connectors.
The opposite of the blind test is the open trial test where two similar things are compared to determine which is most effective.
Blind trials are supposed to eliminate observer bias, but I would ask you, how can you eliminate bias from the evaluation of subjective stimuli? What I mean is, we are talking about electronic or electro-mechanical devices whose sole purpose is the reproduction of a musical performance...right? The audio system's reason for being is the creation of an aural illusion...right? How we perceive and accept that aural illusion depends on our hearing ability, listening preferences, listening biases, listening environment, and the quality of the aural illusion. In drug trails, not allowing a patient to know which drug, if any, he/she is taking is enough of a control factor for valid results. In audio trials, not allowing a listener to know what equipment he/she is listening to is not enough of a control factor for valid results. Indeed, there are too many factors which preclude effective control.
There are just too many biases and variables in both the mechanical reproduction of music and in the listener's perception of that reproduced music for blind trials to provide accurate results. Here are two examples on the listener perception side:
1. Two amplifiers differ only in the way they position instruments within the sound stage. A listening panel is composed of people who have no interest in a spacious sound stage, they couldn't possibly care less about it, and they just don't listen for it. They are only interested in clarity and detail. Both amps sound identical to them.
2. Two preamplifiers differ only in the quality and quantity of higher harmonics above 12 kHz. A listening panel, composed of people whose hearing sensitivity drops precipitously above 11 kHz, say both preamps sound the same.
Here are two examples on the equipment side:
1. Just for curiosity's sake, I inserted my Cary CD 306 Pro SACD player into my master bedroom system. It replaced a Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD/CD/SACD player. In that system, the Cary provided slightly more detail on some music. On other music, I could not hear a difference between them. When the Cary and Sony were compared in my two channel system, the Cary beat down the Sony to the consistency of lumpy gravy. A blind trial between these two SACD players on this audio system in this room would have produced misleading results.
2. People have tried audio grade fuses in speakers and heard no difference between them and the stock 50 cent fuses. They concluded that audio grade fuses are not worth the money. After continually reading about audio grade fuses, they decide to try them in a preamp and a power amp. Boom! the magic appears. They scratch their head and put audio grade fuses back in the speakers and...nothing...nada...zip...no difference at all. Rather than the audio grade fuses being "no good", they just work better in some gear than others. A blind trial between these the audio grade fuses and the stock fuses with these speakers would have produced misleading results.
Lets expound a bit further on placebo. Placebo is all about trickery...right? However, my two channel system tricks me every day. It tricks me into hearing sounds between, in front of, far to the side of, behind, and sometimes above the speakers. Look, I know full well the sound is coming from the speaker drivers, but the speakers seem to "disappear". Uh oh...my two channel system is a big placebo!:eek:
It seems to me that when we get rid of bias and get rid of placebo, which is what blind trials attempt to do, we are actually working against the fundamental reasons for the existence of high quality, high resolution music reproduction systems!
There are some situations in life where a blind test is more appropriate. Drug effects is one. Here is another:
Two hookers that cost the same, but one is far, far more physically attractive than the other. Most (heterosexual) men are disproportionately influenced by a woman's appearance, even to point of ignoring serious character flaws. The average man would need to evaluate each hooker's sexual performance in a totally dark room to avoid being unduly influenced by the better appearance of the more attractive hooker.
If a totally objective man were shown two hookers who were equally attractive, but one was 10 times more expensive than the other, an open trial would be more appropriate because the only differentiating factor would be their sexual performance. This fellow would not be favorably influenced by the higher priced hooker's higher price. She either feels better to him or she does not. Such good analogies.:)
Now, the question you have to ask yourself is: "Can I trust my ears?" If you can trust your ears and you are pursuing audio for what sounds good to you regardless of brand name or sticker price, then the open trial test is best for you.
On the other hand, if you can't trust your ears, if you are highly susceptible to suggestion and/or you are pursuing audio for bragging rights, status or some other reason that has nothing to do with what really sounds good to your ears, then a blind testing method would be more appropriate. This will most probably save you some money. However, you will most certainly miss out on some good gear.
In audio, all it comes down to anyway is do you like what you hear? If an audio product enhances your enjoyment of this leisure time extravagance, then go ahead and enjoy it...even if it it hasn't been "approved" by the audio reviewers, hasn't run the gauntlet of blind testing, and hasn't been run through near destructive laboratory testing. You don't need anyone to tell you what sounds good to you...do you?
Respectfully submitted 07/14/09.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
hmmmm....
hookers.
that must be another brand of woofers.
interesting point of view -
Edit: I know some of you dislike blind testing and feel it's not valid. In that case, you should complain to these people:
http://www.fda.gov/
They've been using these faulty testing techniques for years!
That's a completely different ballgame. -
Sorry. I suppose being a chemical engineer with a firm background in the physical sciences also gives me no credibility. Me and my damn textbooks too!
Why does being a chemical engineer make you an authority on speaker cables/IC's? It does not give you credibility thats for sure. I've never heard a text book play music. -
That fact is, stop posting worthless garbage without a research proving that dielectrics change over time which causing an audio signal to change, and then unchanges after no use.. Just stop. No more posts without facts.
Facts? I suppose you have facts? BS Most people don't need anything more than listening to hear all the facts needed. -
I've never heard a text book play music.
Have you ever read a textbook you understood?
You accused us of not backing up our claims. I posted a few, have you found anything yet? Where are your facts? -
No one has come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it.
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To me, the idea that blind trials are applicable to audio are as ignorant and obnoxious as this widely believed naysayers axiom about power cables:
"What good can a few feet of boutique cable do for the power signal after it has traveled through miles of ordinary copper on the power grid and through the ordinary copper in house wiring?"
Naysayers who propagate this nonsense think they are looking smart, but in harsh reality, they are only demonstrating that they are ignorant to the fact that a properly designed and shielded power cord can do much to clean up a power signal after it leaves the wall...just as a good water filter can provide additional cleaning to water that comes out of the tap.
The audio blind trial proponent conveniently ignores, or perhaps is actually not cognizant of, the fact that an audio system's job is to create an illusion and that the illusion created is a fragile one. Moving ones head too far to the left or right or sitting too close or too far from the speakers can diminish the stereo sound field or cause it to collapse altogether.
For some people, the three dimensional sound field illusion created by a good sound system comes into focus immediately upon being seated in the "stereo sweet spot". For others, it takes a few seconds or a few minutes for the sound stage to "gel".
Now, consider those individuals whose ears need a few moments to "come into focus" and then consider the results of putting such individuals in a situation where equipment is being rapidly or even instantaneously switched back and forth.
I realize that many naysayers have no real interest in audio (whether high performance, mid-fi or otherwise). Trying to reason with them is futile. Some simply have belligerent personalities. If they weren't arguing about audio, they would be arguing about something else that they know little to nothing about. Audiophiles are just a popular and easy target for ridicule. It is easy to come on the Internet and grab some attention and perhaps some camaraderie from kindred spirits:
"Yeah...they spend all that money, but they can't prove that they can actually hear what they say they can hear. I'm way smarter than them. My Yorx 8-track sounds just as good as the stuff they spent thousands of dollars on."Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
William you posted NO facts just same old Blah Blah Blah, opinions from what I saw. Not that opinions are bad but you don't seem to give other people's opinion any credit. As I remember DarqueKnight did a nice thread on this subject awhile ago and if you look around you'll find it.
Are you trying to tell me you let a text book tell you what sounds good, better, best. Yup thats what I figured. -
Have fun. I gotta go back and watch the All Star game.
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William you posted NO facts just same old Blah Blah Blah, opinions from what I saw. Not that opinions are bad but you don't seem to give other people's opinion any credit. As I remember DarqueKnight did a nice thread on this subject awhile ago and if you look around you'll find it.
Are you trying to tell me you let a text book tell you what sounds good, better, best. Yup thats what I figured.
Apparently you can't read. Those weren't all opinions, there were several DBT listed in the links, all with null results. Including one that was done at the request of MIT. Even the people from MIT could not identify their own cables. Nice try.
Find anything to back up your claims yet? -
DarqueKnight, seriously, you need to put a book together with a collection of your work. Perhaps something that can finally kick that stupid book my Robert Harley to the floor.
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That fact is, stop posting worthless garbage without a research proving that dielectrics change over time which causing an audio signal to change, and then unchanges after no use.. Just stop. No more posts without facts.
Here is a fact. I own a Spectral DMC 10 G preamp which doesn't have a power switch because it is supposed to be on all the time (20 years yep). . . all solid state. The engineers at Spectral are some of the finest in the world. I was told by an engineer there that if I power off the pre that when I power it back on I should wait atleast 45 minutes for the caps to reform and the components to stabilize before listening. He also told me that I would get the best sound from it if I wait TWO DAYS before listening.
That is a fact!!!
