Cable Break-in/adjustment period
Comments
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My question is how firmiliar are you with say, AQ's wired/cable. I now you don't think it is generic copper. Not all wire/cable is manufactured the same.
Not familar at all.
I do belive that all or 99.9% of the speaker wire, for example, is either stranded or solid core and it is all manufactured with the same method. The purity of the starter Cu material is also a variable. But that's it. No magic manufacturing process exists to my knowledge, I could be wrong. -
bikezappa
So why do cables/wires sound different/better after a period of break-in?
Did you miss this question? -
bikezappa
So why do cables/wires sound different/better after a period of break-in?
I have no idea why you hear a difference.
I know I didn't hear a difference when I experimented with cables many years ago when my hearing was better. I can hear differneces when I move speakers a small amount and I am very sensitive to amplifier balance. -
Debrox my friend LOL
I know all the cable companies do not use burn-in/adjustment period's as selling points or as a marketing ploy. If anything it could be looked at as drawback. They all seem to say it makes a difference thats no BS and I'll bet the over all majority of, I'll call them audio guys, do hear a difference after some time on a cable. -
clarknova_666 wrote: »Being a scientist in the field, please comment on what you hear.
He and other "engineers and scientist types" and cable naysyaers don;t give a rats **** what they hear. If it doesn't measure differently then there is no difference, no matter what their ears hear.
They are 100% positive that there is a correlation between what they measure (or in this case don't measure) and what they hear (or don't hear in this case). One couldn;t possibly hear something which is either not easliy measured or NOT included in the measurements they feel reflect their opinion that cables/caps/connectors and all other associated items don't make any difference in reproducing a musical signal.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
After comparing a pair of brand new cables to a pair of the same type with a few hundred hours on them, I experienced first hand that break in is real. For me, it wasn't as dramatic as some make it out to be, but it's there."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Not familar at all.
I do belive that all or 99.9% of the speaker wire, for example, is either stranded or solid core and it is all manufactured with the same method. The purity of the starter Cu material is also a variable. But that's it. No magic manufacturing process exists to my knowledge, I could be wrong......
Cu wire is Cu wire.
There are many different casting and refining processes used to manufacture copper, resulting in different purities and grain structures.2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
dragon1952 wrote: »There are many different casting and refining processes used to manufacture copper, resulting in different purities and grain structures.
I don't disagree with that statement, but the end result will be the same resistivity for the Cu with a matching purity. -
He and other "engineers and scientist types" and cable naysyaers don;t give a rats **** what they hear. If it doesn't measure differently then there is no difference, no matter what their ears hear.
They are 100% positive that there is a correlation between what they measure (or in this case don't measure) and what they hear (or don't hear in this case). One couldn;t possibly hear something which is either not easliy measured or NOT included in the measurements they feel reflect their opinion that cables/caps/connectors and all other associated items don't make any difference in reproducing a musical signal.
H9
It's statements like this that turn any logical discussion of audio equipment into a pissing contest. I never said any of those statements. And to lump all scientist "types" into your defined group is flawed. Who the hell designs your $1000/ft speaker cables? A scientist "type" or the janitor at the cable company? Who designs the $10,000 amplifier that you love? The EEs baby.
Rubish. -
bikezappa
So why do cables/wires sound different/better after a period of break-in?
You have yet to show any evidence that they do.
Look, I used to believe I heard differences, just as you do. Then we did testing blind. Everyone could hear the differences when we knew which cable we were listening to, and would go on and on about the differences. Somehow all those differences went away when the cables were hidden.
It's nothing new, it's called expectational bias. What causes it? Hard to say, could be the price, brand recognition, color, the feel of the cable in your hand, or dozens of other factors. -
You have yet to show any evidence that they do.
Look, I used to believe I heard differences, just as you do. Then we did testing blind. Everyone could hear the differences when we knew which cable we were listening to, and would go on and on about the differences. Somehow all those differences went away when the cables were hidden.
It's nothing new, it's called expectational bias. What causes it? Hard to say, could be the price, brand recognition, color, the feel of the cable in your hand, or dozens of other factors.
I disagree with you and thats not right or wrong. No big deal. Your wrong though
Since the need for cables to go through a adjustment period/break-in is not a positive selling point why would the cable companies make it up? -
is it Memorex or is it Live.....
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I disagree with you and thats not right or wrong. No big deal. Your wrong though
Well, you can pretend all opinions are equal if you like. But I actually went to the trouble to find out for myself, you haven't.Since the need for cables to go through a adjustment period/break-in is not a positive selling point why would the cable companies make it up?
Maybe not a selling point, but I bet it has a huge impact on the return rate. -
...enjoy the component and ultimate sound reproduction...
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Well, you can pretend all opinions are equal if you like. But I actually went to the trouble to find out for myself, you haven't.
Maybe not a selling point, but I bet it has a huge impact on the return rate.
William,
Your wrong again. I have found out for myself, a few times. Each speaker cable I have used changes with time and each sound different.
I bet it does have a huge impact on the return rate because the buyers are not make fully aware of the adjustment time. So they plug them in and hear something different and return them not know of the break-in time. -
William,
Your wrong again. I have found out for myself, a few times. Each speaker cable I have used changes with time and each sound different.
Cool. What did you use to control bias in your testing? Or are you still just ignoring all that? -
You have yet to show any evidence that they do.
Look, I used to believe I heard differences, just as you do. Then we did testing blind. Everyone could hear the differences when we knew which cable we were listening to, and would go on and on about the differences. Somehow all those differences went away when the cables were hidden.
It's nothing new, it's called expectational bias. What causes it? Hard to say, could be the price, brand recognition, color, the feel of the cable in your hand, or dozens of other factors.
I agree with this. Also, this may help some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
This debate would not be difficult to end. Simply buy the same speaker wire you are currently using (one is new and one is used), and have a friend swap it in and out in a blind test. And you record what cable you think is which.
Edit: I know some of you dislike blind testing and feel it's not valid. In that case, you should complain to these people:
http://www.fda.gov/
They've been using these faulty testing techniques for years! -
Turning into 'another' cable thread are we? I see Cpyder has jumped in too!
Here's something to think about boys and girls.
The PLACEBO effect is real and science has a piss poor explanation of WHY and HOW it occurs. Consider that the placebo effect has VERY real effects in MEDICINE! So you're testing a drug and guess what 24% of your population given the PLACEBO actually GET BETTER! Now how did that happen? It's PSYCHOLOGICAL...WELL HOW EXACTLY does that work! Outside of saying that there is a BLACK BOX relation between the mind and the body! Well...if that's so then guess what...medical science at least can't test THAT and the results are inconclusive because that BLACK BOX....the human MIND and SUBJECTIVITY just jumped the biological drug/science FENCE and threw in their noise!
Read and conclude what you will....and remember that while reading this my words themselves might be a PLACEBO effect!
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
I agree with this. Also, this may help some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
This debate would not be difficult to end. Simply buy the same speaker wire you are currently using (one is new and one is used), and have a friend swap it in and out in a blind test. And you record what cable you think is which.
Easy to settle... If/when you're in the Boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think I have enough old Rat Shack and M* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. speaker cable and ICs from BJC and Signal Cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ICs here, but I'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.Main Rig
Pioneer Elite SC-05, Rotel RMB-1075
RT800i, CS400i, RT35i, FXi50, Klipsch RSW-12
Pioneer Elite DV F-07, PS3, Wii
Monster HTS 3500 MKII
SC Analog 2, BJC Speaker Wire
Samsung HL61A650
2nd Rig
Pioneer Elite VSX-56txi, Pioneer Elite DV-47a
Cambridge Soundworks, MC150 (Center), MC100 x 4, Mirage LF-150
Office
Adcom GTP-400, Adcom GFA-535II, (need a quality CDP), RT55i -
Ok, I did a blind A/B test to see if all cable naysayers sound the same and the results were no surprise, they all sound like blah, blah, blah.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
easy to settle... If/when you're in the boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think i have enough old rat shack and m* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. Speaker cable and ics from bjc and signal cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ics here, but i'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.
how about those red sox -
Easy to settle... If/when you're in the Boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think I have enough old Rat Shack and M* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. speaker cable and ICs from BJC and Signal Cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ICs here, but I'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.
Hopefully someone will take you up on your offer. It's really an amazing claim, considering no one has done it successfully before. Good luck. -
Cool. What did you use to control bias in your testing? Or are you still just ignoring all that?
William,
My ears tell me what is going on, period. It is too bad your hearing is not what is once was. Not once or twice but many times I have listened to cables including IC's and after adjustment period they sound better.
You still have not come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it.
Red Sox Red Baby or close as they have. I await your thoughts. -
William,
My ears tell me what is going on, period. It is too bad your hearing is not what is once was. Not once or twice but many times I have listened to cables including IC's and after adjustment period they sound better.
You still have not come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it.
Red Sox Red Baby or close as they have. I await your thoughts.
Your ears and mind adapt to sounds over time. So, a system that may once sound good may, after time, sound great. There's a psych theory behind this but I'm not sure of the name of the top of my head. -
Your ears and mind adapt to sounds over time. So, a system that may once sound good may, after time, sound great. There's a psych theory behind this but I'm not sure of the name of the top of my head.
Cpyder,
That's one of the dumbest responses to date and irrelevant. -
William,
My ears tell me what is going on, period. It is too bad your hearing is not what is once was. Not once or twice but many times I have listened to cables including IC's and after adjustment period they sound better.
So you are still ignoring bias. My hearing is fine, I still hear up to 18Khz. You?You still have not come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest.
Yes I did, you just ignored it. What would be even better, is if Audioquest could come up with a logical answer, after all, it's their claim, not mine. -
Cpyder,
That's one of the dumbest responses to date and irrelevant.
Only if you ignore all the evidence behind it. But you are good at that. -
Nobody has been able to do what?Hopefully someone will take you up on your offer. It's really an amazing claim, considering no one has done it successfully before. Good luck.
I've had blind speaker cable, interconnects, capacitor and CD player comparisons here before. Once in a while we find a pair of components that sound very similar, but there are other times where the differences are very obvious. Maybe you should try some different gear to compare or there's faults elsewhere."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
adaptation , Acclimatization ..... existentialism
