Studies On Residential Power Line Noise - Part 8: Audio Grade Fuses For Home Theater
Comments
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bobman1235 wrote: »I am bitter.
Bitter? Over audio? Over how someone is pursuing a hobby? Over words on a computer screen that you can (theoretically) easily ignore? I'd hate to see how you would react to a real problem.bobman1235 wrote: »Have fun on your high horse, don't fall off.
Come on now...that's just not fair. Might I remind you that I am not the one going all over the forum telling people about my (unverified) physics degree and my (unverified) 10 journal papers. I am not the one going around questioning people's education. I'm not the one going around thread crapping and injecting myself into discussions that I have no real interest in.
I'm just here talking about audio topics of interest to me. If someone is not interested in what I am talking about, there is no reason to be bitter about it....just go find something that you do like and talk about that. You don't see me down in the Car Audio section of the forum chastising the fellows who are damaging their hearing with those 210 dB subwoofers do you?;)Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
So Bike, is it also your opinion that fuses which are in the signal path do nothing to alter the sound? I have a pair of vintage Polk's where the tweeter is fused, I am in the process of bypassing the fuse entirely. I hope to hear a benefit. Not sure the office rig I use the Monitor's in, while a computer fan is running in the background, I'll be able to discern a difference.
You are an EE so what you say? I understand you have admitted that you can;t hear differences.........but I'd like to know how you would interpret OHM's law on this one.
H9
As I have said 10 times fuses are a resister with low ohms and they will react to all frequencies in a neutral manner. I have no EE degree and never said it did. -
bobman1235 wrote: »If I may m ake a quick comment about the blind vs. non-blind tests : I ask those that are so quick to discredit blind A B tests, which based on evidence here seems like a valid criticism, you have to at least be open to the idea that NON-blind comparisons are tainted by the subject's knowledge and bias towards certain products.
Cables and power outlets and - although most doubtful - fuses may have some difference to those with "golden ears", but if you discredit the most common scientific ways of determining difference, and base your entire opinion on what is by definition a flawed and biased listening test (there's a reason why things like drug trials are double blind - placebo effect), what makes the non-blind test more valid than the blind one? Because it gets the results you expect / want?
Honest question; again, I'm open to the possibility that these sonic but unmeasurable differences may exist - I certainly don't have the system or heraing capacity to test it out - but to those of you who insist you KNOW, I have to ask how you can know any more than the doubters can claim to know that you're wrong. Bias and placebo are well-defined phenomenon, why are they invalid in your testing?
Thanks for a little sanity and clear logic. I wonder what the collective IQ is on this forum. -
As I have said 10 times fuses are a resister with low ohms and they will react to all frequencies in a neutral manner. I have no EE degree and never said it did.
Again you didn;t answer the question. I asked if I eliminated the fuse (taking it away from the circuit) and using the copper stranded hook-up wire supplied in the x-over; is it your opinion there would be no change in sound or measurement?
Also if a fuse is made from brass, copper, tin plated nickle, plated gold, steel, you still believe it reacts to all frequencies in a neutral manner? Do you believe all metals sound the same? You seem to infer that in many of your posts, but I'd like you to clarify so I don;t mistakenly attribute that as your POV.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Another great reply tcrossma. I learn a lot on this forum as well as others. Small differences can make an impact over time. And if DK can hear all those sonic improvements immediately, I'm not going to argue about it, maybe a I'm a little jealous about it.
Another thought about F1's reply to my blind test comparison. The article justifies it's position that blind tests are faulty by bringing up the most ludicrous blind test anyone has ever heard of and saying see, blind tests are ludicrous. Hardly convincing, but the PET scans would take all of the emotion out of the equation. If DK can use his extensive EE to prove out the technical benefits of the equipment he chooses then why can't an ambitious audio video writer set up a test using a PET scan to see if anyone, expert or novice can detect a difference in equipment. I just hate for scientific methods of measurements to be used solely to prove a technical difference and not a perceptible difference.
Pie in the sky I sure, no manufacturer of extremely high accessories would agree to such a test. If someone from a company such as Audioquest could not tell the difference between their interconnects and Better Cables interconnects it would have a negative impact on their business.
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I am of the opinion that it takes a while to "get a feel" for how a system sounds, regardless of the component being switched. I've made many changes in my system over the past couple years, some of which at first sounds very similar to the previous component. But after days/weeks, subtleties started coming out. And it wasn't always that I was replacing something with a more expensive item, so I wasn't "wishing" it to sound better because I just paid a lot of money for said item.
When I added my first power amp to my system, it sounded good, but not drastically different from my receiver. But when I decided to sell that amp to try something different, I temporarily went back to my receiver and I noticed that something was lacking -- it just sounded kind of flat. I needed to spend some time with the amp before realizing what it was doing for the sound.
I've made several other changes in my system (preamp, cables, CD player, etc), and sometimes I've noticed differences right away, sometimes they have taken a while to sink in.
To me, a quick A/B swap (double blind or otherwise) of anything is not a good way to determine if there's a difference.
Same holds true for other things too. I play golf casually, and tennis much more than casually. I've played tennis my whole life, and have gone through many tennis racquet's in that time. I can pick up any racquet and play with it, and most any decent brand/string/string tension will feel good enough to hit with. But it's only after playing with a racquet for a week or two that you recognize the subtleties of it, what you like and don't like about it, and determine if it'll be the one you keep. Some people might think string is all the same? Wrong. I don't know how to measure it, but each type of string plays differently. Only a very good player with an intimate knowledge of their particular racquet will be able to tell the difference, but it's there as anyone in to the sport will be able to tell you.
I think this same concept applies to audio.
I don't normally chime in on these topics, as they are typically filled with emotional people on both sides of the topic, but I figured I'd get my 2c in here somewhere.
The DB blind tests that I refer to allow the user to listen with any music for any amount of time with with complete control of the switch system that compares the two components. For example if you want to compare two amplifiers you connect them up with the switch and listen and switch for weeks if you want in your home with any music you want. In the end however, some one comes to your home and switches the amplifiers in a DB test. Check out the Audio Critic for more details of his DB test. No one to date can tell the difference to date.
I agree that most DB tests are bad. And that you need to get comfortable with the equipment first. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Come on now...that's just not fair. Might I remind you that I am not the one going all over the forum telling people about my (unverified) physics degree and my (unverified) 10 journal papers. I am not the one going around questioning people's education. you?;)
First I never questionmed your education.
Put your money where you month is. Want to bet that I can prove I have a degree in Physics and can cite my 10 papers.
And your above quote just questioned my education yet you state that you are not questioning people's education.
Stop pulling peoples legs and admit you made all this up.
Or explain how fuses can filter noise. -
Since when did this become an ego battle.
Who besides you gives a **** that you had papers published?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Patent for his AC filter attached. It's more of a traditional filter than the slipstream product, which I can honestly claim I have no clue WTF that's all about. However, looking at the sizes & amperages of them, it's safe to say that particular product wouldn't fit in a fuse of the sizes you've got.
Have you seen a technical document for the slipstream filter? I haven't found one.
I have read the technical description and specs for the small Slipstream purifiers (1/3" in diameter by 1" long, 1000V/4.3A) on the Bybee Technologies website (www.bybeetech.com).Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Bitter? Over audio? Over how someone is pursuing a hobby? Over words on a computer screen that you can (theoretically) easily ignore? I'd hate to see how you would react to a real problem.
Nothing to do with audio, I'm bitter over your attitude. You know exactly what you're doing when you talk down to people and dismiss their arguments as if they're below you. Just like you dismiss my complaints and comments. I can ignore you, and no, this thread has nothing to do with me, but it doesn't mean I'm not interested. My other post here is a legitimate question; while I don't believe you when you say a fuse can make a significant difference, I find the topic interesting, and the faith some people put into the unverifiable claims literally fascinating.Come on now...that's just not fair. Might I remind you that I am not the one going all over the forum telling people about my (unverified) physics degree and my (unverified) 10 journal papers. I am not the one going around questioning people's education.
ORLY?DarqueKnight wrote:I received my Ph.D. from Tulane University in New Orleans, Louisiana. Tulane overall ranks in the top 50 among United States research universities.
Etc
Etc
EtcIf someone is not interested in what I am talking about, there is no reason to be bitter about it....just go find something that you do like and talk about that.
Again, you're putting out a review of something. THe people questioning it - bikezappa in particular, but a few others as well - aren't here because they are not interested, they're here because they ARE interested but hold a viewpoint that does not match yours. I know the "cable debate" is beaten to death around here, but it's a debate nonetheless; you posted this review here to what end? Just so people would take your word for it? Or did you want some discussion to spring from it other than people kissing your ****? Because there's discussion here, some of it valid and p ossibly interesting if you could be so kind as to actually engage in it.
I asked a serious question and tcrossma gave an excellent and well-reasoned response without coming off like... well, you.If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
bobman1235 wrote: »Rah, rah, rah
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Regardless of the topics and discussions at hand, there are some cool Classics Tags here ~bobman has short fuse, keiko trolling again, let's play make believe!, m2threadcrappers, m2zappa-lovers united, more f1nut bulling, the world is now flat!, what is a fuse?
We all got to do something about insulting each other.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
In DK's defense, I love his analytical approach to hifi and bike was coming on a little strong but the cable debate will rage for years, not sure about the fuse debate. You would think a directional fuse would be more than just a fuse. Bikezappa knows how gullible people can be (me included) and I like his opposing viewpoint. If you don't have a badass system like DK has are we little people suppose to glean anything from this discussion about fuses? Personally I don't even know why I am still on this thread, I don't plan on replacing my fuses anyway.
G -
bobman1235 wrote: »ORLY?
Bob, seems you missed this, but if you go back and re-read post #61, I quoted a post from Hearingimpared which, in turn quoted a question from BZ asking where my EE degree came from and if I had any published papers in an IEEE journal, as if that had some significance to my posting on an audio forum:I wonder where DK got a EE? Has he published any papers in a EE Journal?
Please show me these. DK is pulling your leg with EE crap.
Didn't he say please show me these? He seemed to be in need and I, just that once, accomodated him. In turn, I asked for evidence of his credentials and journal publications and he has not been forthcoming.
I generally don't bring up or discuss my professional or educational background here unless someone specifically asks. I don't come here to debate science, discuss journal papers, or academic degrees. I get quite enough of that at work. I come here mainly to discuss (not argue about) audio. It's one of my hobbies.bobman1235 wrote: »Nothing to do with audio, I'm bitter over your attitude.
Well, it's unfortunate that you see things that way Bob. You should seriously consider an immediate and drastic reduction in the amount of space I occupy in your mind. I think perhaps you are a bit too sensitive and you read more into what I write than what is there.
Again, if you find me such an offensive person, just "turn me off" and never see another word I write. It is so easy to be happy, especially on the INTERNET. You act like a moth attracted to a flame. Don't you want to be happy?bobman1235 wrote: »Just like you dismiss my complaints and comments.
You talk like that's a bad thing.:pbobman1235 wrote: »...while I don't believe you when you say a fuse can make a significant difference, I find the topic interesting, and the faith some people put into the unverifiable claims literally fascinating.
Hmmmmm...you don't believe something, yet you find the topic fascinating. Then, you want to participate in a discussion about that thing you don't believe in that was initiated by someone you find offensive. I don't get it.bobman1235 wrote: »I asked a serious question and tcrossma gave an excellent and well-reasoned response without coming off like... well, you.
...and you come off like someone with an obese porcupine permanently lodged in his butt. For example:bobman1235 wrote: »I am bitter. YOu're a passive-aggressive jackass intellectual who obviously thinks he's above everyone. ANd like most people who are full of themselves, you pretend to be magnanimous when in fact you're just a giant hypocrite who resorts to the same tactics you decry in others.
Have fun on your high horse, don't fall off.
I'm glad you were able to get that off your chest. Feel better now?
But I digress. Seems like the answer is simple: If Tcrossma's style of discussion is more to your liking, then why don't you just talk to him and ignore me? Won't you be happy then? Don't you want to be happy?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
bobman1235 wrote: »I asked a serious question and tcrossma gave an excellent and well-reasoned response without coming off like... well, you.
Let's look at a response from your mentor. This was gathered from a post by Hearingimpared wherein your mentor was quoted:I think it's all bull crap science. Anyone that starts his post with Studies raises a red flag and is way into himself.
This was BZ's first comment in this thread. Was this, by your standards, an excellent and well-reasoned response? Do you think this was an approprioate way to begin an intelligent inquiry?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
If I may make a quick comment about the blind vs. non-blind tests : I ask those that are so quick to discredit blind A B tests, which based on evidence here seems like a valid criticism, you have to at least be open to the idea that NON-blind comparisons are tainted by the subject's knowledge and bias towards certain products.
I'll grant you that for some that is probably true, yet for others it's definitely not. From my personal experience, I obtained a $2300.00 (could have been $2600) power cord to demo. I wanted/expected it to out perform the $500.00 one I had, but after giving it more than a fair chance I preferred the $500.00 cord. Another example involved interconnects and again I wanted/expected the fancier, more expensive IC to sound better, it didn't. Yet, another involved a pair of highly praised $28,000.00 speakers verses a pair that cost $2400.00. I hated the more expensive pair and could not understand how anyone could find the sound pleasing despite really wanting/expecting them to blow me away.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Hmmmmm...you don't believe something, yet you find the topic fascinating. Then, you want to participate in a discussion about that thing you don't believe in that was initiated by someone you find offensive. I don't get it.
What's not to get? I can't find something interesting just because I'm skeptical? THat's exactly why I find it interesting, and I find everyone's comments on it interesting; I don't have much to add to these discussions so I just usually read them and take away information, but your attitude towards my "mentor" (you're so mature) made me want to comment.
It's not really that tough to understand, I would think your massive intellect could grasp someone having a bit of intellectual curiosity on something even if they don't necessarily agree with it. I love reading about religion too, doesn't mean I believe it all.You should seriously consider an immediate and drastic reduction in the amount of space I occupy in your mind.
You've spent far more time and words on your responses to me than I to you, chief.
I do like the short fuse tag though. Clever
If you will it, dude, it is no dream. -
This thread turned into a flame war?! I'm shocked!!!:eek: :rolleyes:Do you hear that buzzing noise?
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I should add one more comment - whenever I see Keiko post, I make sure to go back and review all pages to make sure I haven't missed any good soft-**** pics!Do you hear that buzzing noise?
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I'll grant you that for some that is probably true, yet for others it's definitely not. From my personal experience, I obtained a $2300.00 (could have been $2600) power cord to demo. I wanted/expected it to out perform the $500.00 one I had, but after giving it more than a fair chance I preferred the $500.00 cord. Another example involved interconnects and again I wanted/expected the fancier, more expensive IC to sound better, it didn't. Yet, another involved a pair of highly praised $28,000.00 speakers verses a pair that cost $2400.00. I hated the more expensive pair and could not understand how anyone could find the sound pleasing despite really wanting/expecting them to blow me away.
I have no idea how much money you make or what system you currently have, however in that situation you are comparing extremes. If I could only afford 2400 speakers why would I listen to 28,000 speakers to compare them to anyways? -
bobman1235 wrote: »You've spent far more time and words on your responses to me than I to you, chief.
Really? I don't know if that's true or not. I'm certainly not whining about or preoccupied with your personality or attitude:bobman1235 wrote: »I am bitter.bobman1235 wrote: »I'm bitter over your attitude.bobman1235 wrote: »...you dismiss my complaints and comments.bobman1235 wrote: »...I can ignore you, and no, this thread has nothing to do with me, but it doesn't mean I'm not interested.bobman1235 wrote: »YOu're a passive-aggressive jackass intellectual who obviously thinks he's above everyone. ANd like most people who are full of themselves, you pretend to be magnanimous when in fact you're just a giant hypocrite who resorts to the same tactics you decry in others.
Have fun on your high horse, don't fall off.
And finally, this gem, which was your first post in this thread, which had nothing to do with the subject of the thread, but...was...all...about...lil...'ol...me:bobman1235 wrote: »Funny how when someone who agrees with you and praises you calls others "losers" you're not so quick to dismiss him, eh Doc?
I can't imagine how quickly you'd pounce on someone denouncing YOU as the loser.
Are you sure your name shouldn't be "woman1235"? You sure act like a scorned woman.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Mmm, who's name-calling now?If you will it, dude, it is no dream.
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Fascinating!Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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If I could only afford 2400 speakers why would I listen to 28,000 speakers to compare them to anyways?
Assuming a $28,000 speaker's quality and performance is commensurate with its price, it is good to audition a state of the art or near state of the art item just to get a benchmark on where your gear is performance wise. Often people find that a much more expensive item only offers incremental improvements and are not worth the price. Such an experience can generate higher satisfaction with what you already have if it stacks up favorably with a higher performance, much higher cost item.
Ideally, your income is going to increase and you will be able to afford better and better gear. There is nothing wrong with becoming familiar with the performance characteristics of gear currently out of your reach. Often, features on state of the art gear trickles down to mid level gear. If a piece of gear within your means shows up with a "trickled down" feature or performance characteristic you are already familiar with, your prior audition experience can help you make a more informed buying decision.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I have read the technical description and specs for the small Slipstream purifiers (1/3" in diameter by 1" long, 1000V/4.3A) on the Bybee Technologies website (www.bybeetech.com).
OK, I feel retarded. I see the specs, but I can't find the technical description to save my life... got a direct link?Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
Backburner:Krell KAV-300i -
Click on the "Our Technology" link on the website.
If you google "Jack Bybee" and "quantum purifier" you can find some of Jack's interviews where he discusses the technology.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »...and you come off like someone with an obese porcupine permanently lodged in his butt.
I just wanted to point out that this is awesome.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
You did that on purpose, didn't you?concealer404 wrote: »I just wanted to point out that this is awesome. "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
concealer404 wrote: »I just wanted to point out that this is awesome.
hehehehehe,,,,,,,,,,you guys OK I am in.
The bobman has never purported his self as adding much of anything with substansive value regarding audio to our little world and rarely visits our two-channel haven, preferring it seems to propogate his thought in social commentary around the board. So it is somewhat interesting to see him enter the thread and demonstration of elemental motiviational concept theory.
However I must say, he has pretty much remained in a globated, fuzzyfied, fixated state of flux since I told him several years ago that the energy crisis could be resolved if we built all the roads downhill.
I had no idea that his pondering of my suggestion could have placed him into such a stupor that an obese porcupine might crawl up his ****, set it quills, and die.
I suppose some sort of apology would be in order to the poor unkowing porcupine.
RT1
