Why Is Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport?

cfrizz

If the description doesn't fit you, than you have nothing to be concerned about. I know it certainly doesn't fit me.

Then again I never classify myself as such because of the negative, pretenscious connotations. I simply enjoy my system which is really all that is important.

treitz3 wrote: »

I really do wish you would stop lumping all audiophiles into this catagory Cathy. It is not accurate, truthful or correct.

dorokusai

treitz3 wrote: »

How music should sound is easy. It should sound like the real thing in all aspects, disregarding none. It should not sound high end, it should not have a British sound, it should not have an American sound, it should sound like nothing else but the real thing. Nothing extra, nothing taken away.

The more I read your comments on things, the more I believe you have no idea what you're even talking about.

DarqueKnight

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I would agree with the first three points, but not number 4. Most people could care less about audio these days, why would they envy a great system? They are perfectly content with their ipods.

I agree that most people do not have any interest in audio...which is why they are not the ones bashing audiophiles.;) This thread concerns those individuals who profess some interest in audio, yet bash the audiophile.

DarqueKnight

Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport Because:

1. Most people really don't know what a true audiophile is nor do they even know the meaning of the word audiophile.

2. The attributes of fringe audiophiles, false audiophiles, audiofools and audiosnobs are ascribed to the larger mainstream audiophile community. This perception, which is unrepresentative of the mainstream of audiophilia, is what the general public chooses to maintain about the entirety of the hobby.

3. It is just human nature, and fun, to ridicule people who are different or who engage in activities that are not generally understood. It takes much less time and effort to ridicule than to seek and gain understanding.

4. There is an element of envy involved.

5. Some people, who are true audiophiles by definition, prefer not be referred to as audiophiles because of the negative connotation of the word: audiophile = freak.

dorokusai

Audiophile Treasure Hunt

treitz3

treitz3 wrote: »

How music should sound is easy. It should sound like the real thing in all aspects, disregarding none. It should not sound high end, it should not have a British sound, it should not have an American sound, it should sound like nothing else but the real thing. Nothing extra, nothing taken away.

dorokusai wrote: »

The more I read your comments on things, the more I believe you have no idea what you're even talking about.

Thank you for such kind words. Would you care to give your explanation of what reproduced music should sound like? It appears that I don't know, so please. Do fill me and the forum members in. I'm waiting........

Come on, I'm waiting.

mmadden28

treitz3 wrote: »

How music should sound is easy. It should sound like the real thing in all aspects, disregarding none. It should not sound high end, it should not have a British sound, it should not have an American sound, it should sound like nothing else but the real thing. Nothing extra, nothing taken away.

.....

I understand what you're saying...when talking about music created from a physical musical instrucment or 'live' music----but I'd have to say that not all music is created from physical instruments or even live-Some is created electronically and deliberatly so, and can be reproduced in any number of ways. There is no real sound to make it sound like.

Just thowing that out there.

treitz3

Even at a live venue with speakers running, guitar synthesizers, voice alterations and sound/instrument manipulation, the reproductive qualities of the venue, reflections, depth, clarity, impact, dimension, audience and dynamics should sound perceptively real. A pipe organ with all of the aforementioned should sound like you were there, same as a drum, trumpet, chime, oboe, bassoon, flute and singer(s) should sound real as if you were there. Otherwise, we have no basis of what reproduced music should sound like.

For music that is created electronically and deliberately so, and can be reproduced in any number of ways in which there is no real sound to make it sound like? That's not what I was referring to the quoted post, but I agree wholeheartedly.

LessisNevermore

treitz3 wrote: »

Even at a live venue with speakers running, guitar synthesizers, voice alterations and sound/instrument manipulation, the reproductive qualities of the venue, reflections, depth, clarity, impact, dimension, audience and dynamics should sound perceptively real. A pipe organ with all of the aforementioned should sound like you were there, same as a drum, trumpet, chime, oboe, bassoon, flute and singer(s) should sound real as if you were there. Otherwise, we have no basis of what reproduced music should sound like.

For music that is created electronically and deliberately so, and can be reproduced in any number of ways in which there is no real sound to make it sound like? That's not what I was referring to the quoted post, but I agree wholeheartedly.

+1, I like where your head's at.:D

From a musician's p.o.v., I've spent time in recording studios. If one is truly concerned with accuracy, (I am) they need to know what the raw instruments sound like, before eq, compression, reverb, etc., is applied.

It makes accurate playback that much more enjoyable, when you can closely estimate what effects were used, and how. (not referring to specific brands, just effects in general) Stick with me, I'm getting back on topic.....

It makes my day, when I can make out what type of drum heads were used, (in some cases) which cymbals, whether the sticks used were nylon, or wood-tipped.

I have an acquaintence who's home is literally a vintage audio museum. He has refrigerator sized Jensens and Altec VOT's powered by Marantz and Mac tubes. (just a small sampling) There is actually a system(s) in each room. A truly fantastic collection.

He is the type of audiophile who listens to his system, using only music that sounds good on it. He has even adjusted his musical "taste" to his system. He has zero clue/interest what instruments really sound like. If something doesn't sound good on his gear, "It must be the recording" I guess Audiosnob is the correct category here.

To me, this is the type most worthy of criticism. Clueless, but convinced your system is "nice", for the money you paid. Usually said with a smirk.

Different strokes, and all that.

I tend to avoid labels, so audiophile bashing doesn't get me torqued up like some folks. Envy doesn't really play much for me. If I can put together a system that satisfies ME, and spend less, I win.:p

The rest of the bashing, I attribute to the internet. Everyone's an expert now.:cool:

steveinaz

Why Is Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport?

Insecurity.

sucks2beme

Are most of us audiophiles? Maybe. Are most of us on a beer budget?
Yes. That's the goal of club Polk members to get to the real
audiophile level of gear without robbing a bank or spending junior's
college money. That put's us in an odd position of loving good sound
more than big pricey gear. We like to look, but in the end most of us
go with the bang for the buck purchase.

mmadden28

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Maybe it's because audiophiles are such an easy target. The perception among people I have asked about this, is that there is a general feeling that audiophiles are a very gulible lot.

This is due to some of the very silly tweeks that get a lot of attention on the web. Things like the Tice clock, Green markers, Shakti stones, $10.000 wires, and of course the infamous Machina Dynamica items, etc.

Although I think the actual percentage of audiophiles who fall for this crap is probably not that large, all of these items border on the paranormal, and have many believers, so what would you expect?

sucks2beme wrote: »

Are most of us audiophiles? Maybe. Are most of us on a beer budget?
Yes. That's the goal of club Polk members to get to the real
audiophile level of gear without robbing a bank or spending junior's
college money. That put's us in an odd position of loving good sound
more than big pricey gear. We like to look, but in the end most of us
go with the bang for the buck purchase.

...And for only $49 bucks at audiogon you can have that good sound without the pricey gear. And apparently for anybody's gear even at a concert!!
Run don't walk...http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?accstwek&1222478742

cdn5003

This is the same diminishing marginal returns economics argument that can be discussed with any consumer product. The more subjective the product, the more arguing. The writer of the first post in this thread is well versed in economic theory. Any consumer product purchase is a consideration of marginal utility per dollar which is different for everyone. The market for such "overpriced" gear remains intact because their is adequate demand at that price point for it to survive. You can question the merits of the demand but the demand remains. This really is a universal argument that I feel more people need to understand, but I guess everyone feels that way about their field of study don't they.:D

bikezappa

George Grand wrote: »

I'd love to see somebody slide out of a limo, wearing those diamond-encrusted shoes, and step right into a dog load. That'd be great.

What about diamond-incrusted tweezers? What use are they?

George Grand

"Why is the man who spends $50,000 on diamond jewelry a hero to be envied, but the man who spends $50,000 on an audio system a fool to be reviled?"

Around these parts it's because the guy who bought the jewelry is definitely going to get some action, and the guy who didn't, isn't.

DarqueKnight

Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport Because:

1. Most people really don't know what a true audiophile is nor do they even know the meaning of the word audiophile. General lack of understanding of a concept makes it an easier target for derision.

2. The attributes of fringe audiophiles, false audiophiles, audiofools and audiosnobs are ascribed to the larger mainstream audiophile community. This perception, which is unrepresentative of the mainstream of audiophilia, is what the general public chooses to maintain about the entirety of the hobby.

3. It is just human nature, and fun, to ridicule people who are different or who engage in activities that are not generally understood. Stereotyping and ridicule takes much less time and effort than seeking and attaining understanding.

4. Envy. Often when someone vehemently disparages something that is inconsequential to them, they really desire the thing they are disparaging.

5. Some people, who are true audiophiles by definition, prefer not be referred to as audiophiles because of the negative connotation of the word among the general public: audiophile = freak. Therefore, since some audiophiles run from their own descriptive title, this gives the appearance that there must be something shady going on.

6. Insecurity. The audiosnob and the audiophile basher are two sides of the inadequacy coin. (AKA "small peepee syndrome").

7. It is easy to look like an expert on the Internet by bashing something not generally understood. No one is checking for credentials on the Internet. See #6.

8. It's just the kind of fun, fun, fun thing people like to do while cloaked under the Internet's security blanket of anonymity.

DarqueKnight

George Grand wrote: »

Around these parts it's because the guy who bought the jewelry is definitely going to get some action, and the guy who didn't, isn't.

Wow, that's an extremely high price of admission. I admit it's worth something...but c'mon.

Besides, you can rent a harem for several years for 50 G's. (As long as it's not the kind of high end harem like the former Gov. of NY used to rent.;))

George Grand

Okay. How much does a Vette cost and why do most guys buy them? It's not like you can drive them the way they were meant to be driven anywhere in this country.

DarqueKnight

I hope it is not to impress women. Renting a harem would be far cheaper. I always though most guys bought 'Vettes for their aesthetic appeal and the massive power reserves in case they need to get somewhere in a hurry. Sort of like buying a 1000 watt Pass Labs amp with a beautifully carved aluminum faceplate and heat sinks just in case you need the extra power.

mmadden28

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport Because:

1. Most people really don't know what a true audiophile is nor do they even know the meaning of the word audiophile. General lack of understanding of a concept makes it an easier target for derision.
....
....
8. It's just the kind of fun, fun, fun thing people like to do while cloaked under the Internet's security blanket of anonymity.

I think, as its been said, that most of what you stated can likely be applied to almost any area of our society.

The same stereotyping occurs all over the place-You mention certain religious beliefs and there's usually a stereotypical view taken upon that group. Or another example is Hacker. Most think of a hacker as a nefarious or malicious person. Now its not so clear cut here but the actual term (as I have learned to understand it) of a nefarious person committing illegal acts breaking code, ect is actually a Cracker. Hacker is the more well known term though so its used uniformly for all groups of those that are well versed in computer programming and, especially, those well versed in reverse engineering code. Some Hackers work for the Government and other businesses with out nefarious intent, yet are still looked at with suspicion.

1.) It would be simpler to change the name or reference to what a true audiophile is, and leave the old term to its demise and for those that are actually audiosnobs. Such as perhaps Audio Enthusiast.

8. The same blanket of anonymity can be applied to driving in a car. So many rude maneuvers, occur becasue of this, yet if the same line of cars were actually individual humans standing in line, where you can usually see the other person or see eye to eye, people would likely be more gracious, and will merge better, or hold a door open, or pass by a slow walker respectfully instead of running past them as fast as they can and just missing them as if to prove something. Granted respect is not offered in all areas of face to face contact situations, and less so in certain areas, but I think yall get my point here.

As I usually say when somebody starts talking about how bad Jersey Drivers or Philly drivers are (hey just examples chill out ), Earth Drivers suck (except me that is :D )

mmadden28

George Grand wrote: »

Okay. How much does a Vette cost and why do most guys buy them? It's not like you can drive them the way they were meant to be driven anywhere in this country.

My grandmom's 'vette was tha bomb (oops did I just FBI flag this thread? :eek:). I took my Driver's Exam in that thing. It could barely get above 50 without the whole car shaking. Man if I could only open tjhat thing up on the open road and blow the crud out-I'd bet it would zoom zoom zoom :D.

Oh you meant Corvette. I thought you meant Chevette.

---Because they turn heads

DarqueKnight

George Grand wrote: »

Okay. How much does a Vette cost and why do most guys buy them?

Prior to you posing this question I had never considered Corvette owner demographics because it is not a sports car I am interested in. I know three Corvette owners and they did not buy them to serve as chick magnets. I found out that:

"The demographics of Corvette buyers are predominantly middle-aged married men with a median income of around $150K."

Based on the demographics, I would say that a 'Vette is just a nice toy for them. I would also assume that members of this demographic, because of what they have to lose, would choose a more discrete means of announcing they are available for stud service.

John30_30

George Grand wrote: »

Okay. How much does a Vette cost and why do most guys buy them? It's not like you can drive them the way they were meant to be driven anywhere in this country.

I don't own a Vette, likely never will, but I know that just tooling around town in one feels great. You don't have to max it out. It stands on its own vette-ness. Who's to say how the car's meant to be driven besides its owner?

My brother-in-law is one of these Corvette-club guys. They rent a track and take some laps every now and then, for the kick of it.

I like music, he's got a tin ear. I was raised by an audiophile, got perfect pitch, all that yayah. He's a great guy and proves it by putting up with my sister!
Neither one of us envies the other.

I agree with suckstobeme that it's great to build up awesome equipment on a beer budget; equipment that makes all the stuff you got tired of sound brand new again.

DarqueKnight

mmadden28 wrote: »

---Because they turn heads

True. My head turns everytime I see one...and I am not a 'Vette enthusiast. I think they are one of the world's best examples of automotive art.

mmadden28

DarqueKnight wrote: »

True. My head turns everytime I see one...and I am not a 'Vette enthusiast. I think they are one of the world's best examples of automotive art.

I agree-they are indeed. :cool:

bikezappa

Route 66 the TV story about two guys Todd and Buzz looking for a good place to settle down and in the mean time have adventures.

Cars rarely get women, however a $2,000 suit with the proper adornments, shirt, tie and shoes will get their attention.

John30_30

Yeah, whatever happened to Todd and Buzz? Did they end up working in a run-down diner outside of Bakersfield? One went to Vietnam, the other went to Berkeley and Haight-Asbury?

LessisNevermore

bikezappa wrote: »

What about diamond-incrusted tweezers? What use are they?

Don't know.
Gimmie your lighter, and I'll sterilize 'em.

Is that a real poncho?

Kex

Isn't music somewhat like art (real art, that is)? Some people appreciate it, and really listen to it as an activity, not background noise (similar to leaving the television on when you're not even watching it). Those people want decent gear, within limits (for most of us), to improve that listening experience. Audiophile bashers probably just don't get it. Not because they're stupid, they just may not have the right DNA.

Art is the same really. If viewing original art does no more for you than a poster from Wal-Mart (and even that is art, actually), then you will consider spending even $1,000 on art, never mind $10,000 or more, just stupid, and pile ridicule on the idiot with so much money to waste that he will allow himself to be fooled into buying such rubbish. You would also consider "good money" wasted on a museum trip.

Some people would rather see the movies of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, whereas others would prefer to read the books first, since they would expect the books to be significantly better. Those that would prefer just to see the movie would probably never read the book, and just don't see the point in wasting that much time reading when you watch a perfectly good movie just as well.

The appreciation of any art is a subjective thing, perhaps. They can all be described as heightened forms of expression that only humans can enjoy. It is one of the things, perhaps, that makes us different from animals. To some of us, these heightened forms of expression can reach parts of our mind that other, more mechanical pleasures, cannot (hey! :eek: don't even go there ...). Audiophiles may be hearing things when they listen to music that inspires them, just as artists will see things that inspire them to paint, or photograph in a certain way, to record and share what they are seeing with those that can see.

If this suggested view has any truth, then audiophile bashers just think audiophiles have too much money and no sense at all. There is an element of jealosy in that, and also an element of envy (they wish they had that much money "to burn"). They don't understand why anyone would do it and they need something to keep the conversation going over beers with their buddies (I hope beer lovers will not be offended by the association), so they bash those stupid audiophiles.

My $0.02!

dkg999

For a similar take on this type of argument, go to any motorcycle forum and ask what type of motorcycle a "real" biker rides

I think DK posed a very thought provoking question and discussion is always good. The thing I like about audio/HT is that I only need to impress myself. It's always an ego boost to have someone who hears my system(s) for the first time proclaim how great they sound ........... however they made the same comments about someone else's new iPod

I just continue to set in my happy spot, listening to some tunes, and impressing myself that I (well with the help of a lot of you!) built this system myself.