Why Is Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport?
DarqueKnight
Posts: 6,765
Introduction
There are numerous web sites, web blogs, and web boards devoted to disparaging audiophiles and their devotion to high performance, and high priced, music reproduction equipment. What motivates this disparagement? Is it jealousy or ignorance or a combination of both? It is often the case that individuals railing against something (or someone) that is no threat to them actually admire or desire whatever or whoever they are railing against.
It is not clear to me why high end audio (and video) excites such negative passion. High end audio is no different from the high end of anything else. I do not see such disparagement lobbed against high end jewelry, shoes, clothes, automobiles, homes, art or women's handbags.
Ferrari offers sports cars ranging in price from $200,000 to over $1,000,000. Chanel shamelessly offers its Diamond Forever Classic handbag at a price of $261,000. Hermes offers a more "economical" Matte Crocodile Birkin bag for $120,000. Manolo Blahnik's women's Alligator Boots will set you back a mere $14,000. Men can loaf around in Ralph Lauren's Bleecker Crocodile Loafers for a measly $3,800.
Some Perspective
I don't know of any web sites, blogs, or boards where the purchasers of the aforementioned items have their intelligence routinely questioned and where the manufacturers of such high priced goods are characterized as con artists, hucksters, thieves, and snake oil salesmen. A frequent justification for the lack of criticism of other high end goods goes something like:
"Well, other luxury goods are expensive, but at least they do something useful. Furthermore, their manufacturers are able to scientifically prove that their higher priced merchandise is superior in quality and performance to lower priced alternatives. The manufacturers of high end cables, interconnects, amplifiers, and source components have never been able to scientifically prove that their merchandise is superior in performance to lower priced alternatives. I will concede that some high end gear offers better construction quality than lower priced gear, but there is no scientifically validated correlation between higher quality audio gear construction and higher performance."
The overwhelming majority of the people who espouse the preceding axiom are men. A good percentage of those men are married. Generally, in the United States of America, a marriage proposal is accompanied by the presentation of a diamond engagement ring. There is an expectation by the woman receiving the proposal (and by her friends and family) that the diamond will be of a size and quality commensurate with the financial status of the man. It is generally understood that "nice" diamond engagement rings go for well over $1,000 up to whatever you want to spend in the millions of dollars. Let's revisit that axiom again:
"Well, luxury goods are expensive, but at least they do something useful."
What exactly, is the useful thing that diamonds do? Aren't they just highly polished rocks mined out of the ground?
Why will a man insult the intelligence of someone who spends $1,000 on cables and then turn around and spend $5,000 for one or more polished rocks?
Why will a man insult the integrity of a company that makes $5,000 amplifiers, yet that same man will willingly accept the marketing slop from the diamond peddlers that a man should spend a minimum of three month's (it used to be two month's) salary on a diamond engagement ring? For a man making $50,000 a year, the three month's salary "rule" comes out to $12,500...for a rock. It will certainly be a pretty, sparkly, highly polished rock, but it will be a rock nevertheless. It has no more real value than the random gravel along side any random highway.
Why is the man who spends $50,000 on diamond jewelry a hero to be envied, but the man who spends $50,000 on an audio system a fool to be reviled?
Why Won't High End Manufacturers Offer Proof That Their Merchandise Is Better?
Why do high end audio manufacturers need to prove anything? No one asks DeBeers to "prove" that their diamonds are better than other far less expensive gem stones or even cut and polished glass. With audio gear, the only important test is whether you like the way it sounds.
Furthermore, it is the height of ignorance, stupidity and hypocrisy to require such proof. I say such a request is ignorant and stupid because the perceived quality of music reproduction is subjective and cannot be proved. I say such a request is hypocritical because the requesters of such proof only require it of high end audio and video manufacturers, while the "quality" and asking prices of DeBeers' highly polished rocks are accepted without question.
It can be proved quantitatively and unequivocally that a Mercedes Benz 550 CLS is a higher performing automobile than a Ford Taurus. However, to a little old lady who only uses a car to go to church and run errands, the Benz is subjectively no better than the Ford. Therefore, what value would it add for Audioquest to quantitatively prove that their speaker cables are better than ordinary hardware store zip cord? Some people would still not be able to hear a difference or improvement because of their ears, associated equipment, or lack of interest.
Can the makers of premium ice cream brands "prove" that their ice cream is better in quality and taste than generic store brands? Breyer's might use the freshest and purest ingredients in their ice cream and it might be quantitatively better than Albertson's store brand, yet some will prefer the taste of Albertson's ice cream. Therefore, even though Pass Labs uses the finest components and construction techniques in their power amplifiers, some people would still not be able to hear a difference or improvement between a Pass Labs amp and a Sony receiver because of their ears, associated equipment, or lack of interest.
I don't require that Breyer's prove their ice cream is better. If I am interested in ice cream, I should sample as many brands and flavors as reasonably possible until I find what I like best. Why shouldn't I optimize my ice cream enjoyment? If it turns out that I like a less expensive store brand better, I am not going to throw rocks, either figuratively or literally, at the folks who prefer the higher priced gourmet ice cream. To each his own.
Why So Serious?
I don't understand the seething anger and hostility toward expensive audiophile goods. I don't see this kind of hostility directed toward cocaine dealers. Some examples:
"Man, I hate, hate, hate expensive cables and the companies who make them!"
Why hate a harmless thing just because it exists? Once an expensive cable is manufactured, it doesn't do anything to anyone. It sits in a box until it is taken out for use by the purchaser or shoplifter. Many high end manufacturers have very liberal return policies. If their merchandise does not work for you just send or take it back for a refund.
"The quality of "reasonably" priced consumer electronics has advanced to the point that there is nothing to be gained by investing in high priced gear. "
Would you tell Mercedes Benz to discontinue their automotive performance research program? Really, do we need ever increasingly powerful engines? Most of us are not involved in auto racing.
"High end companies are horrible beasts because they prey on the consumer's gullibility by exploiting the placebo effect. They know a person is more likely to accept something if it is pretty and expensive."
Even if it were true that the only value provided by high end audio and video gear was a perceived performance improvement due to the placebo effect, the joy that the consumer receives from their new toy is very real...so leave them alone. If a man pays $10,000 for a diamond necklace for his wife or girlfriend, he is actually giving her a bunch of rocks with no real value (i.e. they are actually worthless). A $1 light bulb or $2 screwdriver has more actual value and utility. However, the pleasure the giver receives from providing the gift and the pleasure the receiver receives from accepting and wearing the gift might be worth more than $10,000...to them. You can't put a price on happiness...so leave them alone. As for me, I would rather give a $10,000 investment portfolio or give $10,000 toward a down payment on a home.
Conclusion
For most people, the ability to play loud and clear is the only objective criteria for audio and video gear. Such things as sound stage dimensions, image layering, image weight, image stability, tonal balance, and low level detail are not important. For the vast majority of consumer electronics consumers, there really is no advantage to be gained by investing in high end audio gear, just as there is no real advantage for the average automobile consumer to invest in a $100,000 Mercedes Benz.
What purpose does it serve to disparage the high end audiophile and the merchants who serve them? Do you have what you want in the way of audio gear? Are you happy with what you have? If so, then why not go and enjoy that rather that rail against the fellow with the $100,000 turntable? How someone choses to go about their musical journey should not be a source of contention. It's just a hobby.
It is true that some high end manufacturers and retail dealers offer merchandise that could be considered a "rip off". However, I challenge you to name one field of commerce that does not have some rip off artists. One is expected to use reasonable judgment and common sense in the high end audio and every other market place.
There are numerous web sites, web blogs, and web boards devoted to disparaging audiophiles and their devotion to high performance, and high priced, music reproduction equipment. What motivates this disparagement? Is it jealousy or ignorance or a combination of both? It is often the case that individuals railing against something (or someone) that is no threat to them actually admire or desire whatever or whoever they are railing against.
It is not clear to me why high end audio (and video) excites such negative passion. High end audio is no different from the high end of anything else. I do not see such disparagement lobbed against high end jewelry, shoes, clothes, automobiles, homes, art or women's handbags.
Ferrari offers sports cars ranging in price from $200,000 to over $1,000,000. Chanel shamelessly offers its Diamond Forever Classic handbag at a price of $261,000. Hermes offers a more "economical" Matte Crocodile Birkin bag for $120,000. Manolo Blahnik's women's Alligator Boots will set you back a mere $14,000. Men can loaf around in Ralph Lauren's Bleecker Crocodile Loafers for a measly $3,800.
Some Perspective
I don't know of any web sites, blogs, or boards where the purchasers of the aforementioned items have their intelligence routinely questioned and where the manufacturers of such high priced goods are characterized as con artists, hucksters, thieves, and snake oil salesmen. A frequent justification for the lack of criticism of other high end goods goes something like:
"Well, other luxury goods are expensive, but at least they do something useful. Furthermore, their manufacturers are able to scientifically prove that their higher priced merchandise is superior in quality and performance to lower priced alternatives. The manufacturers of high end cables, interconnects, amplifiers, and source components have never been able to scientifically prove that their merchandise is superior in performance to lower priced alternatives. I will concede that some high end gear offers better construction quality than lower priced gear, but there is no scientifically validated correlation between higher quality audio gear construction and higher performance."
The overwhelming majority of the people who espouse the preceding axiom are men. A good percentage of those men are married. Generally, in the United States of America, a marriage proposal is accompanied by the presentation of a diamond engagement ring. There is an expectation by the woman receiving the proposal (and by her friends and family) that the diamond will be of a size and quality commensurate with the financial status of the man. It is generally understood that "nice" diamond engagement rings go for well over $1,000 up to whatever you want to spend in the millions of dollars. Let's revisit that axiom again:
"Well, luxury goods are expensive, but at least they do something useful."
What exactly, is the useful thing that diamonds do? Aren't they just highly polished rocks mined out of the ground?
Why will a man insult the intelligence of someone who spends $1,000 on cables and then turn around and spend $5,000 for one or more polished rocks?
Why will a man insult the integrity of a company that makes $5,000 amplifiers, yet that same man will willingly accept the marketing slop from the diamond peddlers that a man should spend a minimum of three month's (it used to be two month's) salary on a diamond engagement ring? For a man making $50,000 a year, the three month's salary "rule" comes out to $12,500...for a rock. It will certainly be a pretty, sparkly, highly polished rock, but it will be a rock nevertheless. It has no more real value than the random gravel along side any random highway.
Why is the man who spends $50,000 on diamond jewelry a hero to be envied, but the man who spends $50,000 on an audio system a fool to be reviled?
Why Won't High End Manufacturers Offer Proof That Their Merchandise Is Better?
Why do high end audio manufacturers need to prove anything? No one asks DeBeers to "prove" that their diamonds are better than other far less expensive gem stones or even cut and polished glass. With audio gear, the only important test is whether you like the way it sounds.
Furthermore, it is the height of ignorance, stupidity and hypocrisy to require such proof. I say such a request is ignorant and stupid because the perceived quality of music reproduction is subjective and cannot be proved. I say such a request is hypocritical because the requesters of such proof only require it of high end audio and video manufacturers, while the "quality" and asking prices of DeBeers' highly polished rocks are accepted without question.
It can be proved quantitatively and unequivocally that a Mercedes Benz 550 CLS is a higher performing automobile than a Ford Taurus. However, to a little old lady who only uses a car to go to church and run errands, the Benz is subjectively no better than the Ford. Therefore, what value would it add for Audioquest to quantitatively prove that their speaker cables are better than ordinary hardware store zip cord? Some people would still not be able to hear a difference or improvement because of their ears, associated equipment, or lack of interest.
Can the makers of premium ice cream brands "prove" that their ice cream is better in quality and taste than generic store brands? Breyer's might use the freshest and purest ingredients in their ice cream and it might be quantitatively better than Albertson's store brand, yet some will prefer the taste of Albertson's ice cream. Therefore, even though Pass Labs uses the finest components and construction techniques in their power amplifiers, some people would still not be able to hear a difference or improvement between a Pass Labs amp and a Sony receiver because of their ears, associated equipment, or lack of interest.
I don't require that Breyer's prove their ice cream is better. If I am interested in ice cream, I should sample as many brands and flavors as reasonably possible until I find what I like best. Why shouldn't I optimize my ice cream enjoyment? If it turns out that I like a less expensive store brand better, I am not going to throw rocks, either figuratively or literally, at the folks who prefer the higher priced gourmet ice cream. To each his own.
Why So Serious?
I don't understand the seething anger and hostility toward expensive audiophile goods. I don't see this kind of hostility directed toward cocaine dealers. Some examples:
"Man, I hate, hate, hate expensive cables and the companies who make them!"
Why hate a harmless thing just because it exists? Once an expensive cable is manufactured, it doesn't do anything to anyone. It sits in a box until it is taken out for use by the purchaser or shoplifter. Many high end manufacturers have very liberal return policies. If their merchandise does not work for you just send or take it back for a refund.
"The quality of "reasonably" priced consumer electronics has advanced to the point that there is nothing to be gained by investing in high priced gear. "
Would you tell Mercedes Benz to discontinue their automotive performance research program? Really, do we need ever increasingly powerful engines? Most of us are not involved in auto racing.
"High end companies are horrible beasts because they prey on the consumer's gullibility by exploiting the placebo effect. They know a person is more likely to accept something if it is pretty and expensive."
Even if it were true that the only value provided by high end audio and video gear was a perceived performance improvement due to the placebo effect, the joy that the consumer receives from their new toy is very real...so leave them alone. If a man pays $10,000 for a diamond necklace for his wife or girlfriend, he is actually giving her a bunch of rocks with no real value (i.e. they are actually worthless). A $1 light bulb or $2 screwdriver has more actual value and utility. However, the pleasure the giver receives from providing the gift and the pleasure the receiver receives from accepting and wearing the gift might be worth more than $10,000...to them. You can't put a price on happiness...so leave them alone. As for me, I would rather give a $10,000 investment portfolio or give $10,000 toward a down payment on a home.
Conclusion
For most people, the ability to play loud and clear is the only objective criteria for audio and video gear. Such things as sound stage dimensions, image layering, image weight, image stability, tonal balance, and low level detail are not important. For the vast majority of consumer electronics consumers, there really is no advantage to be gained by investing in high end audio gear, just as there is no real advantage for the average automobile consumer to invest in a $100,000 Mercedes Benz.
What purpose does it serve to disparage the high end audiophile and the merchants who serve them? Do you have what you want in the way of audio gear? Are you happy with what you have? If so, then why not go and enjoy that rather that rail against the fellow with the $100,000 turntable? How someone choses to go about their musical journey should not be a source of contention. It's just a hobby.
It is true that some high end manufacturers and retail dealers offer merchandise that could be considered a "rip off". However, I challenge you to name one field of commerce that does not have some rip off artists. One is expected to use reasonable judgment and common sense in the high end audio and every other market place.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
Post edited by DarqueKnight on
Comments
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Great read, you should write for an audio magazine, outstanding.
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He he he. Nice post. I'll try to remember this "no more real value than the random gravel along side any random highway" analogy when "someone" starts talking about diamonds _________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
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Excellent!!!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Interesting read. I guess I haven't run across any audiophile bashing except on this Forum occasionally.Carl
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I wonder what would happen if somebody made a speaker out of diamonds or solid gold.
I just wonder. I don't really care if somebody made a pair, or if they did would they sell well. I got my **** and my ears ain't getting any better.
Or a tiny little pair of Carver Amazing loudspeaker diamond earrings. Somebody's wife, or Cathy or Darla could have something like that. -
Diamond tweeters-http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-loudspeakers/floorstanding-loudspeakers/bowers-wilkins-802d-loudpeakers.htmlGeorge Grand wrote: »I wonder what would happen if somebody made a speaker out of diamonds or solid gold.
Silver and Gold capacitors-http://mundorf.com/english 1.1/Broschuere Einzelseiten/MCap Supreme Silver-Gold.pdf
So yes, it's possible.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
George Grand wrote: »I wonder what would happen if somebody made a speaker out of diamonds or solid gold.
They'd sell.
2 Million Dollar Diamond Encrusted Shoes
Diamond Encrusted Bikini, Cell Phone, and NintendoProud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I'd love to see somebody slide out of a limo, wearing those diamond-encrusted shoes, and step right into a dog load. That'd be great.
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Most amusing. Why ask why. There is bashing everywhere, for everything.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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I've got to take issue with the $50,000 diamond not having any more value than road gravel. Don't you realize how many high end stylus could be cut for your Terras from that rock?.....there is your value my friend.;)HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable
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Quick answer is because it's the internet. If you throw something out there for the population to consider, you'll get all sorts of opinions.DarqueKnight wrote: »Introduction
Why will a man insult the integrity of a company that makes $5,000 amplifiers, yet that same man will willingly accept the marketing slop from the diamond peddlers that a man should spend a minimum of three month's (it used to be two month's) salary on a diamond engagement ring? For a man making $50,000 a year, the three month's salary "rule" comes out to $12,500...for a rock. It will certainly be a pretty, sparkly, highly polished rock, but it will be a rock nevertheless. It has no more real value than the random gravel along side any random highway.
They do it because it works. ****, it's almost "fact" now. Amazing how that happens.Why do high end audio manufacturers need to prove anything? No one asks DeBeers to "prove" that their diamonds are better than other far less expensive gem stones or even cut and polished glass. With audio gear, the only important test is whether you like the way it sounds.
Furthermore, it is the height of ignorance, stupidity and hypocrisy to require such proof. I say such a request is ignorant and stupid because the perceived quality of music reproduction is subjective and cannot be proved. I say such a request is hypocritical because the requesters of such proof only require it of high end audio and video manufacturers, while the "quality" and asking prices of DeBeers' highly polished rocks are accepted without question.
Actually diamonds are carefully inspected and rated. Where do people stash their cash when the market crumbles? Gold. When there is a market for a product you don't have prove the value. I agree with music quality is subjective. I've come to the conclusion that I'm happy with less than stellar audio reproduction. Thank goodness for my pocketbook.It can be proved quantitatively and unequivocally that a Mercedes Benz 550 CLS is a higher performing automobile than a Ford Taurus. However, to a little old lady who only uses a car to go to church and run errands, the Benz is subjectively no better than the Ford. Therefore, what value would it add for Audioquest to quantitatively prove that their speaker cables are better than ordinary hardware store zip cord? Some people would still not be able to hear a difference or improvement because of their ears, associated equipment, or lack of interest.
Audioquest wants to do this to sell more product, e.g. My product is better than your product and here's why. It's really true for any product marketing. Does bottled water taste any different than the filtered water coming out of my refrigerator? I can't tell a difference, but my wife keeps wasting money on it. There's also other factors at work here too. People will purchase products solely based on their perception by other people. Why would anyone buy a $600 Dolce and Gabbana leather belt? Would they buy the belt if D&G weren't emblazened all over it?I don't require that Breyer's prove their ice cream is better. If I am interested in ice cream, I should sample as many brands and flavors as reasonably possible until I find what I like best. Why shouldn't I optimize my ice cream enjoyment? If it turns out that I like a less expensive store brand better, I am not going to throw rocks, either figuratively or literally, at the folks who prefer the higher priced gourmet ice cream. To each his own.
This is a great post, BTW. Go find an ice cream forum. They're having this argument this very moment.What purpose does it serve to disparage the high end audiophile and the merchants who serve them? Do you have what you want in the way of audio gear? Are you happy with what you have? If so, then why not go and enjoy that rather that rail against the fellow with the $100,000 turntable? How someone choses to go about their musical journey should not be a source of contention. It's just a hobby.
Fully agree here too. Nothing like seeing a rack of equipment that makes your mouth drool. But again, people come from all walks of life. And with the anonymity of the internet, people are rude at times. That's really why I only have as many posts as I do after 7 years on this board. -
Great post Dr. Smith.
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Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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There is a difference between the gear & said audiophile which is the key to bashing.
Most people have no clue about what gear is good & what is bad, nor do they care.
The gear will do what you want it to do, without any advertisement whatsoever, it just does its job.
The AUDIOPHILE on the other hand just has to develop a superior attitude about his gear & shout it to the rooftops & then proceed to put down other peoples gear as being inferior.
Said audiophile REFUSES to acknowledge the...nor do they care. part of the equation!
How many times have you walked into a high end audio shop & been hit in the face with an obnoxious snotty attitude from the salesperson, who promptly starts to put down some other manufacturer to push some other more expensive product on you? I know that it has happened to me & I promptly walked out of the store never to return!
The problem isn't the gear, it is the attitude of the damn audiophiles who would do well to just sit back, enjoy their gear & STFU about it, since most couldn't care less about it. If you open your mouth to start boasting, then just know that nine times out of ten you are opening yourself up to ridicule. In which case you brought it on yourself & should just take it.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
I really do wish you would stop lumping all audiophiles into this catagory Cathy. It is not accurate, truthful or correct.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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I don’t think it is necessarily a wide spread problem however in some cases I think it is even justified.
The problem in hi-end audio is that it is a subjective medium and unlike other subjective mediums such as art; in audio we often try and claim subjective superiority. If you were to walk into an art gallery and select a painting that fits your preferences; you would not think to claim said painting is “better” than any other; it simply meets your preferences. In audio almost every day there are constantly claims of components/speakers/cabling and whatever else as being “better”
The enjoyment of audio is a subjective passion; how can anything be better ? How can we accept that some like classical whereas other like rap and not question our different musical tastes only to next turn around and claim subjective superiority over the gear we purchase? Maybe if the audio community as a whole became more focussed on defining our subjective preference instead of trying claim “subjective superiority” we might carry more credibility in other circles.
Sorry for the Sunday morning sermon…..off to get another cup of coffee…. -
Human nature. It seems to me that it is part of our culture to bash the minority whether it is audio, race, creed or religion. Even if one could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that expensive things are better than inexpensive things, the majority will still be opposed because they cannot have it due to financial concerns. When I was younger, I never thought I'd spend as much as I have. My financial position then only allowed me a certain level of gear. Was I envious of the real nice gear? Yes I was. I was part of the majority and followed it's lead. Part of me can look back now and admit to this character flaw.
I see quite a few posts here asking about upgrades to just about everything. Most of them I do not reply to for several reasons. First and foremost, if I do not have first hand knowledge of the piece, my opinion means nothing. Secondly, I refuse to bash somebody for making what I consider an insignificant upgrade. Bashing works both ways unfortunately.2 Channel -
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Most audiophiles know a lot about gear and a little about music, then have the audacity to evaluate how music should sound. Some audiophiles couldn't tell you the difference between the sound of an oboe or a hobo, but they can wax philosophically about the sonic improvement of the tweak they just made to their system. At least with other high end goods, the buyer is fully aware that their purchase is for the sake of vanity, whereas a typical audiophile will swear his purchase is to produce better sound of which he has no clue.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
Thanks for very interesting post.
I know very little about this stuff, but this is America after all, where ignorance is no bar to having an opinion. Therefore I shall suggest three motives for bashing:
1. Envy --- e.g., "Those speakers cost more than my car".
2. Puritanism --- audiophilia is a selfish, solitary hobby of which the goal is sensual pleasure.
3. Human nature --- I recall reading some years ago an account of scientists in the Antarctic who dyed a penguin pink and released it. The other penguins promptly pecked it to death. Humans respond similarly, and audiophiles are a bit peculiar, like slightly pinkish penguins.
Can anybody say what an audiophile is, precisely? My definition would be anyone who owns a separate amp (definition cleverly contrived to include me, proud new owner of xpa 5). -
Maybe it's because audiophiles are such an easy target. The perception among people I have asked about this, is that there is a general feeling that audiophiles are a very gulible lot.
This is due to some of the very silly tweeks that get a lot of attention on the web. Things like the Tice clock, Green markers, Shakti stones, $10.000 wires, and of course the infamous Machina Dynamica items, etc.
Although I think the actual percentage of audiophiles who fall for this crap is probably not that large, all of these items border on the paranormal, and have many believers, so what would you expect? -
The AUDIOPHILE on the other hand just has to develop a superior attitude about his gear & shout it to the rooftops & then proceed to put down other peoples gear as being inferior.
You are lumping the audiophile in with the audiosnob.
The suffix "phile" simply means "one who is a lover of something" or "one who is fond of something". Therefore, an audiophile is one who loves or is fond of audio. A true audiophile is concerned with high quality electromechanical reproduction of music and NOT with putting other people down. A true audiophile is also concerned with seeing other people enter into and grow in the hobby and thereby enhance their enjoyment of music. A true audiophile understands that you do not need to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of $$$ to assemble a high quality audiophile system. Indeed, it is well understood that the higher you go up the audio chain, the higher the cost and the more incremental the gain and the higher the diminishing returns. Careful, knowledgeable, and patient shopping, particularly on the used market, can result in an audio system with spectacular performance at mere fractions of the retail cost. A common behavior I have observed among true audiophiles is that they thoroughly enjoy helping other audiophiles to track down deals.
The term "snob" refers to someone who cares much more for rank, wealth, position, and prestige rather than real achievement and merit. The audiosnob buys expensive gear simply for the bragging rights and he or she has no real interest in the high quality reproduction and enjoyment of music. Most of them don't even know what good sound sounds like. They can, however, rattle off all the glowing reviews their toys have received from the audiosnob magazines and they can assure you that their audio system is of the highest quality because it cost $180,000. If you asked one of them how they went about optimizing the synergy between the various components in their system, they will just stare blankly for a moment and refer back to the numerous glowing reviews in the audiosnob press and how much everything cost. The audiosnob will not help anyone score a good deal on high performance gear. First of all, the audiosnob wouldn't even know where to look for a deal. Secondly, even if the audiosnob knew where a deal was, he or she wouldn't tell because they don't want too many people on their turf. It diminishes the exclusivity.How many times have you walked into a high end audio shop & been hit in the face with an obnoxious snotty attitude from the salesperson, who promptly starts to put down some other manufacturer to push some other more expensive product on you? I know that it has happened to me & I promptly walked out of the store never to return!
I have never had this happen to me in the 23 years I have been in this hobby...and I have visited high end dealers from coast to coast in the USA and Canada. I know that snobbish dealers exist and it is fairly easy to steer clear of them just by doing a little research. I know that some high end audio dealers are by "appointment only" and won't grant an "audience" until they have verified your finances. These are not audiophile dealers. They are snobbish "carriage trade" dealers catering to other snobs. There is no love of music in such dealerships. For them and their clientele, it is all about the love of money and putting on a "show".
The first audiophile dealer I visited, back in 1985, was eager to demonstrate his most expensive high performance gear even though he knew I wasn't in the market for such gear and couldn't afford it. The dealer wasn't trying to push anything on me. He just wanted me to have a benchmark regarding the different levels of performance at various price points. This dealer was recommended to me by several of the engineers from work who had formed an audiophile club.
On the other hand, I have visited Best Buy and Circuit City and have been subjected to ignorant and obnoxious salespeople who had no real interest in helping me to get the best value and best performance for my money. They were just pushing whatever the sales manager told them to push at the time. I have to admit, that if I were in the market for a television or a mass market electronic item, I would shop Best Buy or Circuit City, but I wouldn't deal with their sales people because I know that I would walk into the store knowing more about the merchandise than the teenager who is there to "help" me.;)The problem isn't the gear, it is the attitude of the damn audiophiles who would do well to just sit back, enjoy their gear & STFU about it, since most couldn't care less about it. If you open your mouth to start boasting, then just know that nine times out of ten you are opening yourself up to ridicule. In which case you brought it on yourself & should just take it.
I hope this hobby never gets to the point where everyone just sits back, enjoys their gear and STFU about it. Information sharing is a valuable part of the audiophile experience. For example, the information I have received from other audiophiles, about honest, fair, courteous and knowledgeable dealers has saved me a lot of time and money.:)
The overwhelming majority of equipment reviews that I have read on this forum, Audiogon, and Audio Asylum were serious evaluations and not in the least snobbish or boastful. I appreciate it when someone takes the time to publish their personal experience with an interesting piece of gear. This is particularly important as you go up the audio chain because, as cost increases, there are fewer people using the product and fewer opportunities for a consumer review.
Associating the audiophile with the audiosnob is like associating all surgeons with quacks.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Maybe it's because audiophiles are such an easy target. The perception among people I have asked about this, is that there is a general feeling that audiophiles are a very gulible lot.
No they aren't. I see that there is widespread misconception on what an audiophile is or isn't. Audiophiles are not a very gullible lot. They are generally very knowledgeable about what is or isn't reasonable in the way of music reproduction. Audiosnobs and audiofools are gullible because their goals are different from those of the audiophile.
As with any hobby, there are those who are serious practitioners who actually love the hobby and are interested in expanding their knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby. On the other hand, there are those who enter a hobby for reasons totally unrelated to the hobby. I have musician friends who went into music because they love playing and studying music. I have other musician friends who went into music because it is a good way to meet and impress a certain type of woman. I have photographer friends who went into photography because they love, love, love, taking pictures. I have other photographer friends who went into photography because it is a good way to meet and impress a certain type of woman...you know, the airhead "model" wannabees.Although I think the actual percentage of audiophiles who fall for this crap is probably not that large, all of these items border on the paranormal, and have many believers, so what would you expect?
I would expect people to use a little common sense and recognize that there is a lunatic fringe in every legitimate field of endeavor and that an entire group should not be stereotyped by the foolishness of a relative few. Some people are just naturally attracted to weirdness and want to be associated with a particular group but not with the mainstream of that group.
It really does the lunatic fringe a great disservice when you lump them in with the mainstream because the fringe element goes to great lengths to dissociate themselves. Likewise, the mainstream is done a great disservice when they are pinned with the label and attributes of the lunatic. The stereotyper also renders his or herself a disservice because it calls into question their ability to reasonably discern between the serious enthusiast and the trifler.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Most audiophiles know a lot about gear and a little about music, then have the audacity to evaluate how music should sound.
Well, since audio, or that which is heard (i.e. the MUSIC) is by definition what the audiophile loves, if you find someone fixating on something else (i.e. gear, cost of gear, prestige of a particular manufacturer), then you know you are not dealing with an audiophile, but rather a gearphile or audiosnob. Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
How music should sound is easy. It should sound like the real thing in all aspects, disregarding none. It should not sound high end, it should not have a British sound, it should not have an American sound, it should sound like nothing else but the real thing. Nothing extra, nothing taken away.
Now, getting the recording industry to realize this in today's "convenience crowd" is another thing. I have said it before that I personally do not believe that humans have the technology, nor will they have the technology to properly reproduce all aspects of live music within our lifetime. I hope I'm wrong. I really do. We can and have come close but it still can't faithfully and accurately reproduce all of the aspects.
In the meantime, it sure is fun trying though.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
No they aren't. I see that there is widespread misconception on what an audiophile is or isn't. Audiophiles are not a very gullible lot. They are generally very knowledgeable about what is or isn't reasonable in the way of music reproduction. Audiosnobs and audiofools are gullible because their goals are different from those of the audiophile.
I was stating what the perception is, not reality. I've heard this from people when I mention I am into audio. They automatically assume that I am part of the lunatic fringe, because that is what they have read about.It really does the lunatic fringe a great disservice when you lump them in with the mainstream because the fringe element goes to great lengths to dissociate themselves. Likewise, the mainstream is done a great disservice when they are pinned with the label and attributes of the lunatic.
I don't lump them together, the general non audiophile public does. The extremes of any activity are what gets people's attention, not the mainstream. -
Thank you for the clarification.:)Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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OK...to summarize what I have gathered so far:
Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport Because:
1. Most people really don't know what a true audiophile is nor do they even know the meaning of the word audiophile.
2. The attributes of fringe audiophiles, false audiophiles, audiofools and audiosnobs are ascribed to the larger mainstream audiophile community. This perception, which is unrepresentative of the mainstream of audiophilia, is what the general public chooses to maintain about the entirety of the hobby.
3. It is just human nature, and fun, to ridicule people who are different or who engage in activities that are not generally understood. It takes much less time and effort to ridicule than to seek and gain understanding.
4. There is an element of envy involved.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Whenever I engage in audio conversation and the word "audiophile" is mentioned, I immediately fall to the ground, fake a seizure and piss myself.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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DarqueKnight wrote: »OK...to summarize what I have gathered so far:
Audiophile Bashing Such A Grand Sport Because:
1. Most people really don't know what a true audiophile is nor do they even know the meaning of the word audiophile.
2. The attributes of fringe audiophiles, false audiophiles, audiofools and audiosnobs are ascribed to the larger mainstream audiophile community. This perception, which is unrepresentative of the mainstream of audiophilia, is what the general public chooses to maintain about the entirety of the hobby.
3. It is just human nature, and fun, to ridicule people who are different or who engage in activities that are not generally understood. It takes much less time and effort to ridicule than to seek and gain understanding.
4. There is an element of envy involved.
I would agree with the first three points, but not number 4. Most people could care less about audio these days, why would they envy a great system? They are perfectly content with their ipods.
