Pure disapointment.........Polk LSi15

Jstas

sucks2beme wrote: »

How did a lsi thread turn into a Carver thread???

How about we stop asking questions like this and let it go back to an LSi thread. Although, the distinction has also been tenuous and dubious from the start.

treitz3

Jstas wrote: »

I mean treitz3 says that is how it is so it MUST be true!

You said it, not I.

markmarc

First, EarlyB's term of "audio impotence" isn't a bad idea.

High current receivers are a bit of a misnomer, yes, they can apply a large reserve of power, but only for a split second. But to dismiss all receivers would be silly. A Bryston would have no problem with the LSi15's.

I will debate that it doesn't take 200wpc to make the LSi sing, as it's all about quality power, not massive power. If your amp section has a truly serious power supply it won't have any problem digging deep. Paul DiComo heard the LSi9's sound killer on a 70wpc Arcam.

Erik Tracy

If I remember my psycho-acoustics correctly, isn't the 'just noticable difference' in sound pressure levels (decibels) = 3db?

And that with every 3db increase it requires x2 the power (watts)?

If the LSis have an efficiency of 89db -measured at 1 meter with one 1 watt input can't the output be mapped against what the amp should be rated at?

89db = 1 watt
92db = 2 watts (just noticable difference of +3db)
95db = 4 watts
98db = 8 watts
101db = 16 watts
104db = 32 watts
107db = 64 watts

I guess it depends on whether the speaker in question has an output that follows this progression or if it is a less efficient climb in output -if so then the power demands on the amp are even greater.

And you need to account for what your "average" listening preference is to then estimate how much reserve (power or current) your amp needs to keep you from clipping and damaging the drivers.

So, if you had a +6db transient (like a boom or crash) and your average listening level was at 104db - then the amp would need to provide x4 power or 128watts for however long the transient is - without clipping of course.

And isn't efficiency measured at 1 meter from the driver so that if you were listening 10 ft back, the spl at that distance is lower than 104db?

I guess it depends on what 'sing' means in relation to user preference in loudness and size of the room?

Just stirring the pot...
Erik

tonyb

Yaaaawn !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

Yaaaawn !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry - I'm an engineer by trade.

Numbers are needed when designing stuff

Just thought that some sort of rationale could be confirmed for a general rule that "LSIs typically need **** watts to sing".

Erik

tonyb

Quality over quantity my man.Current delivery over wattage.Loudness has absolutely nothing to do with making them "sing".

Systems

Erik Tracy wrote: »

, isn't the 'just noticable difference' in sound pressure levels (decibels) = 3db?

1 db or so is close to the threshold of being perceptable,a 3 db
difference would be very noticeable.

Erik Tracy

GV#27 wrote: »

1 db or so is close to the threshold of being perceptable,a 3 db
difference would be very noticeable.

I see that a google search does indicate that the jnd is at 1db and that 3db is now considered 'clearly noticable'. Although I did find one college website that listed the 3db measure as the 'jnd'.

But, anyway the scale still applies as far as absolute db vs power.

And as a reference point, a nightclub is measured at about 110db - that's pretty darn 'loud'.

The point I was attempting to illustrate is that power demands go up quickly the louder you push a speaker to play - so that it's initial efficiency rating is a factor to consider in possible pairings between speaker and amp and one's listening habits.

But you guys all know that....which is why I expect I got the "yawn" reply (no harm no foul).

And, c'mon, don't we all get that devilish grin on our faces when you 'crank it up' and you see that your amp is hardly breathing

Erik

Systems

Erik Tracy wrote: »

The point I was attempting to illustrate is that power demands go up quickly the louder you push a speaker to play - so that it's initial efficiency rating is a factor to consider in possible pairings between speaker and amp and one's listening habits.

Agreed, good point Erik.

olilugo

Here are my findings on limited research:
1. most avr's will not be able to drive 4ohm speakers, I will go further to say if the avr is not design to handle 4 ohm then an extra amplifier will make little to no difference that I would say wow now I appreciate this.
2. If you buy a avr that can handle 4 ohm speakers like NAD or even Yamaha, then adding an external amp will have a very appreciative increase in all the different words that most of us use: greater soundstage, clear, etc.
3. Probably the best approach is to have a pre amplifier and an external amplifier (most people call this separates).

On a side note having a pre or an avr that have higher sensitivity, adding an external amplifier will give you a more appreciative increase in power/performance, while if the avr has a lower sensitivity, adding an external amp will seam as you have not done anything since the volume will still be at -10 as before adding the external amp.

F1nut

Huh?

Sami

olilugo wrote: »

Here are my findings on limited research:
1. most avr's will not be able to drive 4ohm speakers, I will go further to say if the avr is not design to handle 4 ohm then an extra amplifier will make little to no difference that I would say wow now I appreciate this.

An AVR is an integrated package, think of it as a preamplifier and an amplifier in one package. If an AVR isn't capable of driving 4ohm loads, it's the amplifier section that is lacking. If you add an external amplifier (that handles 4ohm), you're bypassing the AVR's internal amplifier (that wasn't able to drive 4ohm loads). Now you have a preamplifier and an amplifier that is capable of driving the 4ohm speakers.

Hope that helps.

tonyb

Sorry Erik,didn't mean to come off as a ****.[ shut up the rest of you].The point you were trying to make was well taken.Just that sometimes the same stuff gets beaten to death around here on a daily basis,hence the "yawn".

reeltrouble1

markmarc wrote: »

I will debate that it doesn't take 200wpc to make the LSi sing, as it's all about quality power, not massive power. If your amp section has a truly serious power supply it won't have any problem digging deep. Paul DiComo heard the LSi9's sound killer on a 70wpc Arcam.

Excellent. Seems as though the idea of an amplifier clipping has been lost somewhere in the spin of watts stats. I can assure anyone looking at NAD as their power choice that the company is an excellent choice. Arcam should be on anyone's list, actually the short list.

RT1

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

Sorry Erik,didn't mean to come off as a ****.[ shut up the rest of you].The point you were trying to make was well taken.Just that sometimes the same stuff gets beaten to death around here on a daily basis,hence the "yawn".

No prob...I'm a noob here.

I figure that the 'veterans' here will from time to time either smile and quaintly think "isn't the noobie cute" or "here we go again".....

It's all good....enjoy the sound...

But, suffer me this one question in regards to 'quality' power.

The ability to move a driver is measured in power or watts.

And if a user is asking his/her setup to deliver more that what is 'rated' - in watts - how does the power supply behind the amplication circuitry mitigate overdriving beyond an amps rated power rating?

Thanks,
Erik

garnier

I am listening to my system consisting of all LSi speakers in 7.1 mode, except the subwoofer, with my Outlaw 7700 300 wpc @4-ohm, and I am not sure if it sounds better than with my previous Polk Audio Monitor series speakers with my Denon receiver! It sure is a little bit better, but not very noticeably. Am I doing anything wrong? I am using 12 guage speaker wires I got from Wal-Mart for $20/50ft and Monster power surge protector/conditioner. I am not sure if it was worth the money spent! I can't play it loud anyway either, because I live in an aprtment complex. I will keep what I have; but to be honest, I was expecting more from these!

nebborjk

garnier,

How long have you had these speakers? They will need some time to break in. This is usuallly around 100 hours.

reeltrouble1

Erik, its about power as measured in amperes. Without enough electrons flowing down the pipe (lack of power) the amp will clip the wave frequency distorting what you hear. You also need reserve power to handle something called transient sounds which are very short in duration but draw lots of power. You need am amp with around 25 amperes peak to peak rating minimum, however the more the better. There is no magical number of watts a device should put out to make you speakers sound this way or that.

RT1

dkg999

garnier wrote: »

I am listening to my system consisting of all LSi speakers in 7.1 mode, except the subwoofer, with my Outlaw 7700 300 wpc @4-ohm, and I am not sure if it sounds better than with my previous Polk Audio Monitor series speakers with my Denon receiver! It sure is a little bit better, but not very noticeably. Am I doing anything wrong? I am using 12 guage speaker wires I got from Wal-Mart for $20/50ft and Monster power surge protector/conditioner. I am not sure if it was worth the money spent! I can't play it loud anyway either, because I live in an aprtment complex. I will keep what I have; but to be honest, I was expecting more from these!

Having moved up the Polk Audio food chain in my HT, from SDA's to Monitors (vintage) to RTi, then to LSi ...... if you can't hear a difference between the new Monitor series and the LSi's, then either something in your system isn't right, or you just aren't able to appreciate the differences (not a critical comment, not everybodys ears hear the same things!). If you are comparing to vintage Polk Monitors, then the difference vs the LSi will be smaller, but still should be noticeable.

Ron Temple

dkg999 wrote: »

or you just aren't able to appreciate the differences (not a critical comment, not everybodys ears hear the same things!). If you are comparing to vintage Polk Monitors, then the difference vs the LSi will be smaller, but still should be noticeable.

Hopefully that isn't the case...

What are you primarily listening to music or HT? What's your room like/size?.

Your gear looks fine, so it's either expectation or setup. You should be hearing a noticeable change in the soundstage, larger and more open, deeper, with pinpoint imaging. Macro and micro detail should manifest better within the stage. When you close your eyes, you should be able to place the individual instruments (imaging). The Monitors are decent speakers, but should sound slightly smeared in comparison.

In my experience, when I hear a superior speaker, I can tell immediately what it does better. The really great ones, hit you with the "I've got to have that" feeling. I'd think the LSis would do that for garnier.

MGPK

http://http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/guruscordell.htm

cfrizz

He doesn't say what Denon he has, I wonder if he has calibrated everything.

Systems

Erik Tracy wrote: »

- how does the power supply behind the amplication circuitry mitigate overdriving beyond an amps rated power rating?

The power supply is the limiting factor ,if it can no longer provide the current and voltage required by the output transistors to reproduce the signal then clipping (severe distortion)will occur.The actual power output obtained depends on the load the speaker presents to the amp.

tonyb

Erik- I believe RT1 nailed it.Along with a good answer by GV#27.What exactly do you design and/or build as an engineer?Curious is all,anything audio related? Numbers have their place in the design stage to meet a certain criteria,but thats not all there is to a good amp.

AudioFilet

I'm wondering now if my HK AVR745 would be able to handle 4 ohm loads? It seems to have the specs for it, but who knows?

Any thoughts on that?

SKsolutions

^It should^ I wouldn't drive (7) 4 Ohm speakers for very long, but in two channel @4 Ohm, it will perform quite well. It'll be the bees knees -until you get a solid separate amp. Then you will wonder why you waited. Nice warm sound with that combo. It'll open up a bit if you upgrade.

garnier

I use my setup mostly for watching movies, and I calibrated the system using an automatic calibrator of a receiver.
I do notice a difference now that I am using an external amplifier compared to just using a receiver. So I souldn't regret spending money if there are even a little bit of improvement.
So, I guess I shouldn't complain, because there are some improvements. Maybe I expected too much.
But I am content with what I have now! Thank you!

Sami

AudioFilet wrote: »

I'm wondering now if my HK AVR745 would be able to handle 4 ohm loads? It seems to have the specs for it, but who knows?

It should.

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

Erik- I believe RT1 nailed it.Along with a good answer by GV#27.What exactly do you design and/or build as an engineer?Curious is all,anything audio related? Numbers have their place in the design stage to meet a certain criteria,but thats not all there is to a good amp.

Computer Systems (aka System Architect).

Nothing audio related.

But even in audio, I would guess every audio engineer agonizes over numbers in their design and that listening tests involve gathering 'data' and subjected to 'analysis'.

Ultimately, in the end, it comes down to us, as listeners, and whether we get that sublime smile of satisfaction of sweet enveloping sound.

But - the numbers get you there!

Erik