Pure disapointment.........Polk LSi15

cfrizz

I think you broke it down very well H9.

I approach this hobby from a totally different angle from 99% of the 'active' posters on here. My enjoyment comes from listening to my music & watching my movies. I have neither the time, money, energy, or inclination to be constantly swapping, selling, packing up, picking up, etc. audio gear. Not everyone does, nor should it be required.

But make no mistake, I did plenty of research before I shelled out my hard earned money. I have always been fortunate enough to buy good quality gear the first time around based on my research and it has served me well for a long long time.

My philosophy for this hobby fits quite well with a great many women. The vast majority of us have no problem with you guys getting the gear. It's when we see you CONSTANTLY changing the gear for God only knows what reason that we start getting irritated with the whole thing.

Now if you are a millionaire, or single, knock yourself out. But if you are 1 of 2 people in a marriage & you do this, I understand perfectly why some of you are getting bitched at. I would be doing the same.

So as far as I'm concerned we are trying to reach 2 totally different audiences. My message is aimed at people who are interested in getting a system put together that they can enjoy for several years with a minimum of fuss, bother, aggravation, & problems.

And also give them a few options for when/if they start thinking about doing some upgrades. Which includes NOT upgrading a piece of equipment like an amp because it has enough juice to drive any speaker that it is hooked up to.

Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from H9 & giving me some credit for having a sound plan.

heiney9 wrote: »

You're welcome.

There is validity to what you preach, especially for those who don't want to make the effort and do the research and get the experience. My entire point is there is an alternative if one is willing to spend the time and put in the effort to become educated and get more enjoyment from the hobby.

If one is looking to set-up a nice well mannered HT system that is "fuss" free and is basically a "turn it on and play it" type system, then that person would be well covered if they use the 200 wpc rule.

If one wants a little more finesse and flexibility and wanting another level of fidelity for music, etc. then there might be better choices in amplification out there and they most likely won't need and won't offer 200 wpc and will fit the bill just fine.

That's my take on the 200 wpc rule.

H9

ohskigod

TroyD wrote: »

Too bad you didn't like them....a little research goes a long way though to make better purchasing decisions.


BDT

game...set...match to TROY LOL
it's good to find the forum and research BEFORE you buy or return the speakers....just my .02

be83663

cfrizz wrote: »

:D:D Brad, thanks for giving me a huge laugh tonight!!! CLASSIC!:D:D:D

Hmmm...so Cathy likes Brad...:rolleyes:

dave shepard

cfrizz wrote: »

My philosophy for this hobby fits quite well with a great many women. The vast majority of us have no problem with you guys getting the gear. It's when we see you CONSTANTLY changing the gear for God only knows what reason that we start getting irritated with the whole thing.

Now if you are a millionaire, or single, knock yourself out. But if you are 1 of 2 people in a marriage & you do this, I understand perfectly why some of you are getting bitched at. I would be doing the same.

Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from H9 & giving me some credit for having a sound plan.

Thanks Cathy now I know what my wifes problem is and I am working on that. Can you talk to her about always changing the room and colors in the house for me?...:D

I can see where you are comming from but if you look at alot of manuf. NAD especally you will see that they offer a really nice product that can perform and handle the load with ease. If you were in the market for a LSi system and having the understanding you have would you consider purchasing the brand?
NAD has no amp or reciever that puts out 200wpc but will drive the LSi's very well. Their T973 amp has 7x140wpc and even their Master series amp the M25 has only 7x160wpc and I know they would work well (especally the Master) and give the LSi's everything they need and then some. As far as the Mac
MHT200 reciever I had thrown in the mix it has only 6x120wpc and that is a whole nother animal that would no doubt in my mind perform like nobody's business and would now cost less then yours and my set-up priced new.
The set-up you are using is a good one and is nice no doubt and it just so happens to have well over 200wpc so you are good to go and then some for a long time but just because it has over 200wpc doesn't mean that one with fewer wpc won't work as well for a long time either.
With alot of people looking to get into this hobby for the most part buy new and at the new price... My set-up goes for over 5k and yours for over 5k and both will do well with the LSi's but some they may not be ready or willing to spend that now or possibly ever but that does not mean that they would have to spend that to run them nicely because they feel they have to be in the 200w category, they can spend less with alittle guidance and get great results for their application. As a result everybody would be happy, the consumer the store and Polk.
The problem in this persons instance is that the salesman IMO did not do his homework in trying to understand his needs and wants properly and as a result the customer was unhappy and things were returned, now nobody has anything and no sale was made, that is a bummer. I know you can walk into any store and talk to 3 different salesmen with the same LSi buying plan and come out with 3 different set-up's. The stores that standout are the ones that will sit down with you and without telling you what is included in the set-up let you deside which suits your needs and sounds best, kind of like a blind test with different pieces. In the end you may be suprised with what you end up with and the 200wpc may not be in the mix. The biggest problem is that those stores are so few and far between.
So basicly one can still look at getting the LSi's and be very happy with them and still not be in the 200wpc arena because there are manufactures such as NAD that can deliver the quality power they need to sound amazing.

Dave

cfrizz

Lol! Too funny Dave. Tell your wife to get a busier job so that she doesn't have so much time to constantly rearrange the house!:eek::D (That would drive me crazy!)

I guess that there probably aren't too many NAD users on here driving an entire LSI system & raving about it. If there were, my opinion might be different.

Would MY gear choices change? No they wouldn't. I always spend more up front and get what some on here would call "overkill" to ensure that what I have will last & sound great. (I'm just hardwired that way.)

I'm not really willing to spend 5k new either, and you make an excellent point about buy new when first getting into this hobby as I was of the same mindset. It has only been with experience that I realize that for some gear it's a good thing to buy used. The cost of my 2 Sunfire pieces didn't come close to 5k since I purchased them used. But a newbie probably isn't going to do that.

And you are absolutely correct that finding good knowlegeble sales people in audio is getting harder & harder to come by.

Sami

cfrizz wrote: »

I guess that there probably aren't too many NAD users on here driving an entire LSI system & raving about it. If there were, my opinion might be different.

NAD is just one example, there are many others. The products that have less than 200WPC that have successfully driven LSi's to ear deafening levels, if needed, in my setups: HK AVR7200, Adcom GFA7400, B&K AV5000, Aragon 2004. None of them had any problems whatsoever, and all are around 100WPC mark.

All had their own tonal character, and what you like the best is a personal preference. I happened to like the 100WPC Aragon, and that's an amp that will put most 200WPC+ amps that people have here to shame in both tone and ability to drive hard loads.

Now, the Aragon is around $400-500 used, and you could have a 200WPC Adcom 555 for a little less than that. Based on your rule, people shouldn't even consider the Aragon and should opt for the Adcom. Huge mistake, HUGE. IMHO of course, I have heard both and while both have the ability to drive, the Aragon is just so much better sounding piece, especially with LSi's. That's just one example why the 200WPC is bad, although the basic principle is good.

mightymouse

Is Aragon still in business? I can't find their website.

sucks2beme

mightymouse wrote: »

Is Aragon still in business? I can't find their website.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10966/

Mondial, maker of Acurus and Aragon was sold and the product lines
just kind of died off.

heiney9

mightymouse wrote: »

Is Aragon still in business? I can't find their website.

No not officially. The subsidiary that owns Klipsch bought Aragon about 2-3 years ago and they have slowly let the Aragon line die. They will still continue to support service, parts, etc.

www.klipsch.com

mightymouse

That's a strange business move.

Why would someone pay money to buy up Aragon, and then just let the Aragon line die off? Doesn't this mean that whoever bought up Aragon lost all their investment?

heiney9 wrote: »

No not officially. The subsidiary that owns Klipsch bought Aragon about 2-3 years ago and they have slowly let the Aragon line die. They will still continue to support service, parts, etc.

www.klipsch.com

heiney9

mightymouse wrote: »

That's a strange business move.

Why would someone pay money to buy up Aragon, and then just let the Aragon line die off? Doesn't this mean that whoever bought up Aragon lost all their investment?

What investment? They probably wanted to raid the R & D of the company. Mondial was on the skids whne taken over by Klipsch. Midfi lines like Aragon are dying all the time. Adcom is a shell of the original company and has been sold atleast 3 times.

It's just way the electronics market is. Large corporations go where the money is.

be83663

cfrizz wrote: »

I'm not getting into this class war again, it's gotten beyond old. If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead. Or consider yourself in the big leagues for having a whole lot of aesoteric gear that most aren't interested in but cost alot of money even used, be my guest.

I am a middle class consumer with middle class money. I buy the best middle class product that I can afford at middle class prices, from mostly what are considered middle class vendors.

I try my best to only buy ONCE & keep it for years. I don't want to have to worry about if I have enough, is this going to put anything at risk, so I buy probably more than is necessary, but the peace of mind is PRICELESS!

While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.

There are lots of variables in this hobby & everyone has an opinion. I'm simply stating what works & makes sense for me. Take it or leave it I couldn't care less. I've got mine & I'm happy with it. If I can help someone else get to that place I'm going to try.

Everything I state is workable, some like it, some don't for whatever reason. If you have to worry about every nickel & dime you put into a system, maybe you need to rethink if you need the system at all at this point since that money should probably be spent on more essential items.

You talk a lot like I did when I was defending for my Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver.

I recommend that you get an higher-end esoteric amp; it will sound better than your middle class amp!

Dennis Gardner

be83663 wrote: »

You talk a lot like I did when I was defending for my Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver.

I recommend that you get an higher-end esoteric amp; it will sound better than your middle class amp!

Yep you're kinda new around here aren't you??..........Cfrizz runs a $3-5K Sunfire rig. Most likely will smoke your $500 Emo on order.......hardly middle class.::rolleyes:

Lowell_M

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

Yep you're kinda new around here aren't you??..........Cfrizz runs a $3-5K Sunfire rig. Most likely will smoke your $500 Emo on order.......hardly middle class.::rolleyes:

I'd put a 120wpc Marsh A200 upagainst that 400wpc Sunfire rig any day of the week. (actually, I did on a Saturday and the outcome far favored the Marsh) Edit - I just re-read CFrizz's sig. The amp we reviewed was a TGA-7400...different Sunfire amp, but still 400 wpc.

I can't believe this thread has lasted so long... :rolleyes:

Jer.War

Hey Sami,
It sounds like you have quite a bit of experience with different makes of amps. Could you spout a few words about their different tonal qualities
This goes for anyone with a nice power amp, I`m researching to upgrade from my yamaha to drive my LSI`s (prob just 2 channel). I watch alot of movies and love to listen to some nice tunes. A tend to enjoy a warmer mellower sound, with good bottom end. Any suggestions oh wise polk masters

Dennis Gardner

I like what Marsh has to offer too, but I just wondered if he considered the Emotiva that he chose to be of the higher end esoteric level he speaks so highly of.

Sami

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

I like what Marsh has to offer too, but I just wondered if he considered the Emotiva that he chose to be of the higher end esoteric level he speaks so highly of.

Emotiva high end? Entry level price, can't say about performance other than people saying it's great bang for the buck. Sunfire/Carver, that's middle class for sure, not high end.

Sami

Jer.War wrote: »

A tend to enjoy a warmer mellower sound, with good bottom end. Any suggestions oh wise polk masters

Sounds like you would enjoy B&K's offerings, and they wouldn't break the bank either. I had AV5000 driving my LSi15's, excellent performer. Solid middle class.

be83663

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

Yep you're kinda new around here aren't you??..........Cfrizz runs a $3-5K Sunfire rig. Most likely will smoke your $500 Emo on order.......hardly middle class.::rolleyes:

No, I don't consider Emotiva as a higher-end esoteric level amp, of course not. McIntosh is, for example. It will sound much better than my $500 Emotiva for sure, whereas middle class amp might sound only just better than mine!

I was saying that it is harder to change someone's opinion when he or she learned to be or wants to be content with what he (a receiver in my case) or she (a middile class amp in her case) has!

Lowell_M

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

I like what Marsh has to offer too, but I just wondered if he considered the Emotiva that he chose to be of the higher end esoteric level he speaks so highly of.

I was being a smart ****:o

Jstas

treitz3 wrote: »

Huh? I don't recall ever saying that. I was just stating that if you tried to power an Original ALS with a Carver M1.0t or a M1.5t, even though they are rated at well above 200 watts per channel, they will not power them properly tis' all.

Really? Well, this is where you implied it:

treitz3 wrote: »

Perfect example that starts your ball bouncing, if you will. A pair of Original Carver Amazings can't be powered properly with a 375 watt Carver M1.0t or M1.5t amp. Now, looking back at your statement, that's 175 watts OVER your 200 watt minimum. So, if you don't want to lie to people and you don't want to mislead people, then at least tell them the entire truth and not just a tidbit of information. They also need an amplifier that has the capability of handling a nominal 4 ohm load that also has the current capability or design structure/capacitance that has the ability to be able to properly power a hard to drive speaker.

And honestly as an owner of a pair of original Amazings and also one who is in possession of an actual owner's manual, I can say that you are incorrect. Bob Carver himself has said that the absolute minimum you need is 120 watts to power an Amazing and your dynamics and low-end grunt will suffer. Bob recommends at least 200-220 watts to drive them effectively but you will only have low listening levels available. Which is fine because Bob's "low listening level" apparently is much higher than everyone else because the Amazings will still shake the whole house at such levels. They are rated to handle something like 2200-2400 watts each. I can't remember for sure.

Currently, I have a Rotel amplifier powering them and it is putting out around 210 watts at the current load that Amazings present. I don't get the volume that other Amazing owners get but the sound quality is quite impressive anyway. However, I do have better amplification in mind and am in the process of acquiring said amplification. Once it is in place, I will speak more of it.

Now, all this horse hockey about an M1.0t not being able to handle Amazings...yeah, I call shenanigans. Any Carver amp with a 't' in the model name was designed with Bob's transfer function duplication. That came out of Bob building amplifiers that matched the sounds of high end amps with his cheaper and more powerful designs. The amplifiers that Bob built for Stereophile Magazine's acceptance of his challenge duplicated the likes of the Conrad-Johnson Premier Five and the Mark Levinson ML-2. Those amps were the prototypes of the M1.0t, the M1.5t and the M4.0t. The later lines of TFM amplifiers were more robust but all the t and TFM models were designed as high current powerhouses that were super clean and could push any speaker in Carver's lineup and pretty much anyone else's for that matter. That includes the Amazings. The 't' series was more than capable of driving the speakers and the TFM series was specifically designed to drive the Amazings. I really think that your findings are off base. I have also noticed that Amazings are very finicky with placement and if you can't have ideal placement, you need to have room treatments. Several people who have had bad experiences with Amazings have had such experiences not because of gear or power but because they did not place them effectively. Then again, they are 2-way dipoles and they can be a pain to place and get to image correctly.

But this is off-topic now. I'll butt-out since I have never really listened to LSi 15's or 25's outside of Polk HQ.

phuz

Hyper_Lite83 wrote: »

I had them for about 3 weeks.

They need a good 100+ hours of good use before they start to open/sweeten up.

treitz3

Incorrect. I never implied it. I stated that a Carver M1.0t and an M1.5t will not properly power a set of Original Amazings. I know for a fact that they will not. I have both amplifiers and I had them both hooked up to a pair of Original Amazings in my house. Both of the amplifiers could barely get loud enough to disrupt normal talking levels and there really was no dynamics compared to hooking those same speakers up to a Lightstar pre and a Lightstar amp.

I need no introduction or history lesson from anybody concerning Carver gear. I'm already well versed in both Carver's amplifiers and speakers and have experience to back it up in a variety of situations, trust me. As far as me being incorrect and you calling Shenanigans, it is apparent to me that you are relying on spec's to make your statement and not experience. Had you actually experienced what you preached, you would realize that I am correct. Next.

TroyD

There was an interview with Bob, somewhere, recently and he was talking about the orignial ALS's. He even said that his amps weren't really enough to do them justice...and that the market just didn't accept the low senstivity.

When I get a minute, I'll look.

That said, having owned the original ALS, I had a couple of amps that would do them just fine...but most amps aren't up to the task.

BDT

F1nut

You also have to consider that they have a maximum output of 110db. For some, that's just getting warmed up.

skipf

Carver built the Silver 7t & Silver 9t amps with powering the ALS in mind. They are both 575wpc into 8 ohms. The ALS originals were 4 ohm, The Plats are 8 ohm and more efficient than the originals. I originally powered my Plats with an M-500t and that just didn't cut it. You will never hear the full potential of the ALS series at 200wpc.

venomclan

Watts are watts and wire is wire.

Jstas

treitz3 wrote: »

Had you actually experienced what you preached, you would realize that I am correct. Next.

Heh. I like your assumptions. You're a funny guy! Obviously I'm relying on specs because I've never heard Amazings or Amazings Platinums before. I mean I don't listen to a pair every day. And nobody I know powers them with Carver amps of any kind, at all, ever. Geez, what kind of jackass am I? I wonder who would do something so silly? I mean treitz3 says that is how it is so it MUST be true! His experience is so much more in depth than anyone else anyone knows. So that must be the defacto standard? I'm glad you could straighten me out. I wouldn't want to go through life being such an inferior person. Hey, do you think I might be able to touch the bottom of your robe? I'll give you $5 bucks! :rolleyes:

sucks2beme

How did a lsi thread turn into a Carver thread???

NotaSuv

sucks2beme wrote: »

How did a lsi thread turn into a Carver thread???

among many other sidetracks.....I love the post about the guy who will touch the kings robe for 5 bucks