Pure disapointment.........Polk LSi15

Rays_Fan

Yes, I have been told that 4 ohm speakers are hard to drive with HT receivers. Sorry to hear you changed your mind.

Rays_Fan

dave shepard

cfrizz wrote: »

I'm not interested in paying that kind of money for that smoke, when I can get the same in a cheaper but well made 200wpc amp! What's so hard to understand about that?

In my post I refered to not needing 200wpc to get them to sing their heart out. I used the Mac reciever (and NAD just not in the same sentance) as being quality pieces worth looking at that will drive the LSi's at the 4ohm load they need and do not offer the 200wpc that is stated as what they need. The Mac has been discontinued and can be had at a price on par with a good pre, amp and cables (a dealer in my area still has one NIB well under $5k) and I can tell you that with the cost of my Rotel 1068 and Sherbourn 7ch amp and cables I could easily buy it and be better off for it but since I already have what I have that would be stupid on my part.

What I am trying to get accross is that you do not need 200wpc to effectively drive the LSi's. They would be better off with a quality amp that offers clean, hi-current power that is able to drive the 4ohm load. Under normal listening music or movies you are using not much more then 1wpc out of 200wpc and on the dynamic parts you might step into 50-80wpc the better hi-current unit will put the power out faster and with more authority then the average piece. So given the extra unused portion of the 200wpc amp you do have better control over the drivers but could have saved money by looking at a less powerfull amp and still get quality sound out of your speakers there does come a point of deminishing returns. If money is tight for someone they may not look at the LSi's thinking that nothing short of
200wpc will work and that is just not true.

There are just too many veriables involved when it comes to higher-end audio. When you reach that level everything involved from cd/dvd to pre-pro to amp to cables everything becomes important and effects the sound more noticably then the average entry level audio. But you can't forget that there is always the dreaded diminishing returns and knowing where to call it quits because the speakers just can not do anymore. The Mac used for an example is one such piece (overkill for the LSi's it can provide more then the speakers can do) but you would never have too look elsewhere for a better reciever and your speakers will be putting out everything they have to offer, no question.

My intention is not to start a fight but to provide my opinion and first hand experiance and this thread has gotten crazy attention and some have gave a newbee some unnessary red **** in stead of trying to guide him and explain what might be wrong. I'm not too sure how long I would have been here if that happened to me when I first started and I can tell you I have asked some really stupid questions some I asked more then once because I just didn't understand but the people here (DocSpec especally) were very gracious and patient with me and I am greatful, any reason why there seems to be more bashing happening to newbees then before? we all have to learn some how right?

I hope there are no ill feelings with my statements or opinions.

Dave

F1nut

For the record, I didn't bash this newbie.....damn, I miss those days.

Frank Z

Probably been covered already, but so what. Yes proper amplification is important, and so is location & room accoustics. If the room sucks and or the placement is lousy don't blame the speaker.

ben62670

dave shepard wrote: »

In my post I refered to not needing 200wpc to get them to sing their heart out. I used the Mac reciever (and NAD just not in the same sentance) as being quality pieces worth looking at that will drive the LSi's at the 4ohm load they need and do not offer the 200wpc that is stated as what they need. The Mac has been discontinued and can be had at a price on par with a good pre, amp and cables (a dealer in my area still has one NIB well under $5k) and I can tell you that with the cost of my Rotel 1068 and Sherbourn 7ch amp and cables I could easily buy it and be better off for it but since I already have what I have that would be stupid on my part.

What I am trying to get accross is that you do not need 200wpc to effectively drive the LSi's. They would be better off with a quality amp that offers clean, hi-current power that is able to drive the 4ohm load. Under normal listening music or movies you are using not much more then 1wpc out of 200wpc and on the dynamic parts you might step into 50-80wpc the better hi-current unit will put the power out faster and with more authority then the average piece. So given the extra unused portion of the 200wpc amp you do have better control over the drivers but could have saved money by looking at a less powerfull amp and still get quality sound out of your speakers there does come a point of deminishing returns. If money is tight for someone they may not look at the LSi's thinking that nothing short of
200wpc will work and that is just not true.

There are just too many veriables involved when it comes to higher-end audio. When you reach that level everything involved from cd/dvd to pre-pro to amp to cables everything becomes important and effects the sound more noticably then the average entry level audio. But you can't forget that there is always the dreaded diminishing returns and knowing where to call it quits because the speakers just can not do anymore. The Mac used for an example is one such piece (overkill for the LSi's it can provide more then the speakers can do) but you would never have too look elsewhere for a better reciever and your speakers will be putting out everything they have to offer, no question.

My intention is not to start a fight but to provide my opinion and first hand experiance and this thread has gotten crazy attention and some have gave a newbee some unnessary red **** in stead of trying to guide him and explain what might be wrong. I'm not too sure how long I would have been here if that happened to me when I first started and I can tell you I have asked some really stupid questions some I asked more then once because I just didn't understand but the people here (DocSpec especally) were very gracious and patient with me and I am greatful, any reason why there seems to be more bashing happening to newbees then before? we all have to learn some how right?

I hope there are no ill feelings with my statements or opinions.

Dave

Thanks Dave I could not have said any better. Very good right up on gear. A few newbies needed a spank recently for asking, and then ignoring. Sorry I just get a little tired of someone asking an opinion, and then arguing with your response

cfrizz

I'm not getting into this class war again, it's gotten beyond old. If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead. Or consider yourself in the big leagues for having a whole lot of aesoteric gear that most aren't interested in but cost alot of money even used, be my guest.

I am a middle class consumer with middle class money. I buy the best middle class product that I can afford at middle class prices, from mostly what are considered middle class vendors.

I try my best to only buy ONCE & keep it for years. I don't want to have to worry about if I have enough, is this going to put anything at risk, so I buy probably more than is necessary, but the peace of mind is PRICELESS!

While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.

There are lots of variables in this hobby & everyone has an opinion. I'm simply stating what works & makes sense for me. Take it or leave it I couldn't care less. I've got mine & I'm happy with it. If I can help someone else get to that place I'm going to try.

Everything I state is workable, some like it, some don't for whatever reason. If you have to worry about every nickel & dime you put into a system, maybe you need to rethink if you need the system at all at this point since that money should probably be spent on more essential items.

ben62670

cfrizz wrote: »

While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.

I totally agree with buying a used amp, and lots of other audio equipment. I too have done a ton of research on the internet, and have made purchases based on reviews I have read. There are some problems with doing so. Lots of professional reviews are biased, or bought. A lot of equipment in the better than big store category is judged by people that have not dabbled into Hi-Fi. These people hear mediocre equipment, and think that what they have purchased is the bomb. Before I read a review I like to see what the reviewer has owned to compare it to. Also a lot of people think they have something special because of the designers name being used on it. A lot of amps that are out there have a designers name on it who used to make great equipment, but is now compromising quality to get more profit out of mass sales. As for wattage use I have tested the actual watts being used by speakers at different volumes, and you would be very surprised at what you are actually using. It is all about build quality, and currant.

Sami

cfrizz wrote: »

If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead.

Having a 'Name'? Isn't it the same as having bragging rights for having '**** amount of power'? What should matter is the quality of the sound.

About the LSi's, George has a good analysis. I did manage to get good bass out of them in my previous bedroom, not so good in the next house. I'm using them now in HT with a subwoofer so bass is not an issue but they still lack a wide sweet area.

BTW, I'm feeding them 200WPC * 2 (bi-amped) but the best they have sounded was with a 100WPC amp that is now driving my SDA's.

cfrizz

It's not a brag if it can be proven to be true.:D I and a lot of other people can hear an improved "quality of the sound" with the 200wpc & more. It has been stated time & time again in this & other threads. Especially when it concerns the LSI series. It has been proven that they respond extremely well with the more power you feed them.

But some of you insist on bouncing around like a ball when it comes to this issue rather than be consistant.

If it is just that you don't want to scare people off with the truth of what is needed & the money it will cost to make the speakers sound their best, then you are doing them a great dis-service by not being consistant.

The goal should be to make sure that users are getting the most benefit from their gear. If that means spending more money up front to do so than so be it. Do it once & do it right the first time around then sit back & enjoy.

Sami wrote: »

Having a 'Name'? Isn't it the same as having bragging rights for having '**** amount of power'? What should matter is the quality of the sound.

About the LSi's, George has a good analysis. I did manage to get good bass out of them in my previous bedroom, not so good in the next house. I'm using them now in HT with a subwoofer so bass is not an issue but they still lack a wide sweet area.

BTW, I'm feeding them 200WPC * 2 (bi-amped) but the best they have sounded was with a 100WPC amp that is now driving my SDA's.

sucks2beme

Bottom line, if it doesn't work for you, move on. No harm, no foul.
Synergy. The right speaker with the right amp and the right source.
If you don't have the big dollar stuff and want to match speaker with
your level of gear, go ahead. A good speaker will often show you
everything wrong with your gear. Been there, done that. Many $$
later and the problem is solved. Stop now before all hope is lost and
six months from now you're buying a $3000 turntable and a tube rig.

Dennis Gardner

edited...

BottomFeeder

Then I'm editing too!

Sami

cfrizz wrote: »

If it is just that you don't want to scare people off with the truth of what is needed & the money it will cost to make the speakers sound their best, then you are doing them a great dis-service by not being consistant.

If someone is doing a disservice it is you by the "200WPC or more" blanket statement. Yes, the LSi's need a quality amp to sound great, but what you are saying is simply not true. 200WPC or more is not the magic, it's quality. 200WPC does not equal to quality. Quality amps cost money too, you know, so no-one is hiding the fact that high priced gear is very beneficial to LSi's. That doesn't mean they can't sound good with lower end gear though, they still beat any current Polk offering with modest amplification.

cfrizz wrote: »

The goal should be to make sure that users are getting the most benefit from their gear. If that means spending more money up front to do so than so be it. Do it once & do it right the first time around then sit back & enjoy.

I agree with that, but doing it right does not require or mean an amp with "200WPC or more", and that's a fact. Some amps fall into that category and some don't.

Face

cfrizz wrote: »

I'm not getting into this class war again, it's gotten beyond old. If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead. Or consider yourself in the big leagues for having a whole lot of aesoteric gear that most aren't interested in but cost alot of money even used, be my guest.

I am a middle class consumer with middle class money. I buy the best middle class product that I can afford at middle class prices, from mostly what are considered middle class vendors.

How is this a class war? I'm only a county employee and would consider myself middle class also.

While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.

Maybe you should get out and listen to some more gear instead of believing everything you read on the net and bashing products you know little about. Or maybe try some different gear out in your rig, that's the best way to learn.

Sami wrote: »

If someone is doing a disservice it is you by the "200WPC or more" blanket statement. Yes, the LSi's need a quality amp to sound great, but what you are saying is simply not true. 200WPC or more is not the magic, it's quality. 200WPC does not equal to quality. Quality amps cost money too, you know, so no-one is hiding the fact that high priced gear is very beneficial to LSi's. That doesn't mean they can't sound good with lower end gear though, they still beat any current Polk offering with modest amplification.

I agree with that, but doing it right does not require or mean an amp with "200WPC or more", and that's a fact. Some amps fall into that category and some don't.

Thank you Sami, I couldn't agree more.

F1nut

Guys, that's not his review.

Dennis Gardner

F1nut wrote: »

Guys, that's not his review.

Thanks Jesse, I'll edit, I misread his post....not trolling, just seeing what all the ruckus is about......

Gaara

Yay were back at the 200wpc fight.

I think the point of recommending 200wpc is that few crap amps reach that area, and it will be a improvement over a ht receiver. I have been guilty of listing power as the reason to upgrade to a amp, only because it is easy to explain/understand, and I don't have the patience to list other reasons.

Face wrote: »

Maybe you should get out and listen to some more gear instead of believing everything you read on the net and bashing products you know little about. Or maybe try some different gear out in your rig, that's the best way to learn.

I can't agree more. I to believed more power = better sound, until I tried more amps. They don't have to be expensive, I am running my LSi7s off a $160 amp and they have never sounded better. You don't necessarily need high power either, I choose a 30wpc amp for my PC rig over my 300wpc Cinenova, because it sounded better irregardless of price (cost me $290 shipped).

If someone is content with their rig, so be it, but they can't really speak from experience until they have experience.

mule

In the interest of the original topic....

I'm a relative newb and come here to try and learn and not make the same mistakes many, including myself have made.

So I will post these links to help people like myself, to many it will seem boring and redundant but I think more constructive than insulting others likes and dislikes...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071214134405AAwsfRj


http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/bk_support/FAQ/high%20current%20amps.pdf

Maybe others know of better links to educate, please post.

I would also be curious of the technical reasons a tube amp might sound better with less wattage, so please post a link if you know of one that might explain this, hell, I could end up with 4 home made mono tube amps powering the ht, it would also help to heat the house in the winter

TroyD

Too bad you didn't like them....a little research goes a long way though to make better purchasing decisions.

Good luck

BDT

heiney9

cfrizz wrote: »

But some of you insist on bouncing around like a ball when it comes to this issue rather than be consistant.

There are way too many variables to make generalizations and blanket statements so that's why some of us bounce around. As a general rule of thumb the 200 wpc rule is good starting point. It's neither necessary nor desirable to have to get the mandatory 200 wpc.

One thing that is very common is the fact that LSi's need some very good amplification to really perform to their capabilities which in most cases doesn't come from and AVR. Now if that's in the form of a 200 wpc amp great. But it can be accomplished with less in many cases.

Cathy you are right to a certain degree about boutique amps but there are two sides to that issue. I happen to like Nelson Pass designs and fortunately they are reasonable on the used market. I can buy one of his designs which is a low power class A amp of 30 watts per channel which will out perform many of the 200 wpc amps. The only thing it will be lacking is max dB output compared to the 200 wpc amp and in my situation that's a non-issue. For someone with a very large room and high ceilings, etc. more watts = more output.

The 200wpc is a very good rule of thumb but it's not an absolute rule nor is it necessary to enjoy LSi's to the greatest degree. If people would take the time to become more educated before they purchase audio (anything for that matter) they should be able to see both sides of the issue.

H9

engtaz

Well said heiney9. I could not think of a better way of putting it.

Thanks,
engtaz

Lowell_M

As part of the 200 wpc club due to the recommendations of the club in the early days of my addiction, I can say that I'm happy to have entered the world of seperates with the ADCOM GFA-555 with 200 wpc. It wasn't a bad start for a recommendation, but I was recently blown away by a 120 wpc Marsh A200 (part of the DKG999 collection) on my system, which can be had at somewhat similar price ranges in the used market as GFA-555's.

treitz3

treitz3 wrote: »

My guess would be that it is a "blanket answer" for those that are not in the know that covers what most of the general public needs to know in order to get I]what the general public would consider[/I good sound.

What they need is an amp that is rated and capable of handling a 4 ohm load that also has the capacitance and /or current draw necessary to properly power them. This can be achieved at well below a "200 watt minimum".

Cathy, allow me to quote myself. This was my response to why a "minimum of 200 watts" is constantly suggested. No bouncing ball, no swaying of opinion, just fact, and it's not even the end all statement either. It is just a better representation of what is needed to power a 4 ohm or hard to drive speaker, like the LSi's in question.

Perfect example that starts your ball bouncing, if you will. A pair of Original Carver Amazings can't be powered properly with a 375 watt Carver M1.0t or M1.5t amp. Now, looking back at your statement, that's 175 watts OVER your 200 watt minimum. So, if you don't want to lie to people and you don't want to mislead people, then at least tell them the entire truth and not just a tidbit of information. They also need an amplifier that has the capability of handling a nominal 4 ohm load that also has the current capability or design structure/capacitance that has the ability to be able to properly power a hard to drive speaker.

This is just the tip of the ice burg, but if you want to tell the truth and educate people properly so they only make a one time purchase....at least tell them what they need to know. "A minimum of 200 watts" just doesn't cut the cake.

dorokusai

Since when did the Carver Amazing require 375wpc+?

cfrizz

Thank you H9.

I'm out of this. Those of you who have the knowledge of other lower powered amps that can handle the LSI's need to start speaking up then.

And if some newbie blows up their new speakers with said amps you can also deal with the fallout!

uvaskeme

I have an Anthem MCA 30 which pushes 180wpc@8ohms and 265wpc@4ohms. Is it enough to power the LSi's? All the 200wpc talk is scaring me. Thx

Frank Z

Plenty of power. I'm using an Outlaw 7100 that puts out 165WPC with all 7 channels driven into my 7 LSi's.

heiney9

cfrizz wrote: »

Thank you H9.

You're welcome.

There is validity to what you preach, especially for those who don't want to make the effort and do the research and get the experience. My entire point is there is an alternative if one is willing to spend the time and put in the effort to become educated and get more enjoyment from the hobby.

If one is looking to set-up a nice well mannered HT system that is "fuss" free and is basically a "turn it on and play it" type system, then that person would be well covered if they use the 200 wpc rule.

If one wants a little more finesse and flexibility and wanting another level of fidelity for music, etc. then there might be better choices in amplification out there and they most likely won't need and won't offer 200 wpc and will fit the bill just fine.

That's my take on the 200 wpc rule.

H9

LessisNevermore

uvaskeme wrote: »

I have an Anthem MCA 30 which pushes 180wpc@8ohms and 265wpc@4ohms. Is it enough to power the LSi's? All the 200wpc talk is scaring me. Thx

Any high current amp will do fine, regardless of wattage.


I ran my set of LSi's off Denon receivers for 4 years, and never had a problem, as long as you don't get stupid loud,(clipping) they'll be fine. When I did add an amp, it was like getting new speakers, all over again.

Unless you're trying to power the LSi's from a sony, jvc, pioneer avr, etc., the amp requirement tends to get a bit overstated.

heiney9

LessisNevermore wrote: »

Any high current amp will do fine, regardless of wattage.


I ran my set of LSi's off Denon receivers for 4 years, and never had a problem, as long as you don't get stupid loud,(clipping) they'll be fine. When I did add an amp, it was like getting new speakers, all over again.

Unless you're trying to power the LSi's from a sony, jvc, pioneer avr, etc., the amp requirement tends to get a bit overstated.

Shout out to another local Polkie :cool:. I'm up the street in Rockford.

Not to be a jerk but you kind of contradict yourself. Stating that the amp made them seem like new speakers and then closing with the amp requirement tends to a get bit overstated.

That's a contradiction to me. Sounds like there was a substantial improvement by adding an amp so how could it be overstated to endorse adding external amplification.

H9