hookup not producing amplification Denon 3808/Cinenova

ben62670

GSRBOB wrote: »

You need a multimeter to measure pre-amp voltage. Also a test cd with different sinewaves 20-20k hz. On the old rockford amps for car audio i would use this to match the left and right gains.

This is good for matching gains, but it doesn't help determining the output voltage with out an oscilloscope to measure distortion. You may show up to 9v on my Outlaw 990, but it only puts out 1v clean.

Grimster74

Well it seems to me we've all pretty much established the difference in volume control wout is experiencing is result of the preout voltage difference between the two units. What we have to do now is establish whether or not he got a defective 3808 or whether something is not set up correctly. It took me nearly 3-4 times of running the Audyssey setup with different mic positions before I got mine setup to my liking (sp?). There are so many different processing modes on the 3808 it would make a beginner pull their hair out, not saying wout is a beginner by any means but I'm not sure if this is the first Denon product he's owned or not. Denons manuals as well as their remotes are by no means easy to understand, just read my review of the 3808CI. I'd love for wout to tell me what settings he is/was using on the 3808 and maybe, just maybe I can help him out a bit. For all I know, he may be using the exact same settings I am, maybe to 3808 is just not for him. Wanna hear from you wout.

tcrossma

jakelm wrote: »

Just because the amp is not louder, doesnt mean there is something wrong.

Yall seem to think that just because your adding wattage things will automaticly be louder. There is more going on than the amount of wattage of the amp. The NAD pre has more gain coming out of its pre outs than the Denon. That does not make the Denon broken.

Tcrossma, what speakers are you using? Whats the efficiency, the ohms? All this has a play on how loud things will be, when going from a AVR pre to amp.

I don't think he's necessarily just talking about louder. I know that's one of his issues he's citing, but he also seems to be talking about quality.

I have the LSi 15's. 4 ohm.

olilugo

I had the same experience when I borrowed a rotel 1095 amp and connected it to my pioneer receiver. I was just not impresses. I did not notice any difference with out without the amp and my volume for reference ... was at -25db. The feedback was that I just needed a better receiver/pre-pro.

The question is what pre/pro/receiver would be the the next level up. I Think that I will probably not find it in the onkyo, denon, pionner yamaha and so on... which is really goes to show me that just because the receiver cost 1200 - 3000$ it is no garantee that you will get the sound you are looking for.

GSRBOB

Originally Posted by ben62670
This is good for matching gains, but it doesn't help determining the output voltage with out an oscilloscope to measure distortion. You may show up to 9v on my Outlaw 990, but it only puts out 1v clean.

Oscope is definitely a nice tool to have but i doubt most people will throw down the cash for one unless they use it on a daily basis. I agree, i think it would be the only way to get a true reading on preamp voltage with the scope. But im no engineer so i dont know for a fact.

wout

Hey guys, I did not realize this thread was cooking along. I decided to sell all the gear. The Denon is gone. The Cinenova is on the block (Matti is in line for it). The FXs are gone and the LSiC and projector are on Ebay.

What happened? I lost a bundle on the stock market and the family decision was to cut back. Bad timing. If only the Denon was producing the sound it did with 8ohm speakers like in the store the whole HT set up would have been installed (finalized) and that would have been that. We would have cut somewhere else. But I'll get it all back, better next time. (Life lesson - never give in)

Right now the NAD is powering the LSi15s and doing a great job of it. I play upright bass and I am still learning so I use DVDs to show me what to do. My bass (instrument) sounds exactly like the sound coming from the speakers (like a real bass in in the speakers). It's uncanny.

I still find it odd that the Denon sounded great in the store with 8ohm speakers and that it did not with 4ohm LSi15s despite having an amp like the cinenova powering the speakers. Since the NAD is not even close to getting hot I can't see the point in having the cinenova. The NAD is model 320BEE ($350 or so). Here is the link to spec and a few reviews. http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/integrated-amplifiers/nad/PRD_299767_2717crx.aspx

It has been said before, the proof is in your ears. In this case for whatever reason the difference was huge. The Denon/cinenova sounded like a good boombox on low to mid volume with the dial at -5dB. Uninspiring. I know that is not what the reviews came in at elsewhere so something was amiss. Had to be. We'll never know.

But that is all academic now. JJ Cale sounds great on my stereo LSi15s (narrow listening habit). Movies suffer from lack of 5.1 but the soundstage of the LSi15s with the NAD in my 27' wide room is awesome.

The main lesson for me is that before buying a HT audio setup it is wise to hear it first. Granted the room you hear it in may be treated and have different audio qualities than yours but you have a better idae of the equipment pairing.

I'm in Crested Butte, CO but the beer got warm and the gear is gone.

Time to change my sig

wout

Wow the sig changes on all your posts backwards.

Sherardp

Sorry for the lost bro, that sucks

mantis

wout wrote: »

Hey guys, I did not realize this thread was cooking along. I decided to sell all the gear. The Denon is gone. The Cinenova is on the block (Matti is in line for it). The FXs are gone and the LSiC and projector are on Ebay.

What happened? I lost a bundle on the stock market and the family decision was to cut back. Bad timing. If only the Denon was producing the sound it did with 8ohm speakers like in the store the whole HT set up would have been installed (finalized) and that would have been that. We would have cut somewhere else. But I'll get it all back, better next time. (Life lesson - never give in)

Right now the NAD is powering the LSi15s and doing a great job of it. I play upright bass and I am still learning so I use DVDs to show me what to do. My bass (instrument) sounds exactly like the sound coming from the speakers (like a real bass in in the speakers). It's uncanny.

I still find it odd that the Denon sounded great in the store with 8ohm speakers and that it did not with 4ohm LSi15s despite having an amp like the cinenova powering the speakers. Since the NAD is not even close to getting hot I can't see the point in having the cinenova. The NAD is model 320BEE ($350 or so). Here is the link to spec and a few reviews. http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/integrated-amplifiers/nad/PRD_299767_2717crx.aspx

It has been said before, the proof is in your ears. In this case for whatever reason the difference was huge. The Denon/cinenova sounded like a good boombox on low to mid volume with the dial at -5dB. Uninspiring. I know that is not what the reviews came in at elsewhere so something was amiss. Had to be. We'll never know.

But that is all academic now. JJ Cale sounds great on my stereo LSi15s (narrow listening habit). Movies suffer from lack of 5.1 but the soundstage of the LSi15s with the NAD in my 27' wide room is awesome.

The main lesson for me is that before buying a HT audio setup it is wise to hear it first. Granted the room you hear it in may be treated and have different audio qualities than yours but you have a better idae of the equipment pairing.

I'm in Crested Butte, CO but the beer got warm and the gear is gone.

Time to change my sig

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Denon and Lsi don't go together no matter what amp you stick in the mix. The Denon is more designed for Rti speakers. I'll explain.

Sonic signature of the denon using it's amps or anyone elses is dull and lifeless. They tend to sound flat. Now flat can be a very good thing when you have bright speakers like the Rti's. It goes together well. For me I feel it's a nice mix. For Lsi's they tend to be flat unless you power them with something that has I'll use the term Sparkle for lack of a better one. I found that Rotel preamps or receivers sound fantastic with Lsi. Now thats not the only as I also found B&K to excell with Lsi. Hell I think that kind of system is all one needs to be happy for a very long if not forever. Idiots like me need to keep digging holes and searching for audio nirvana that maybe not nessary once a certain level is achieved.

Not everyone is going to agree with my views on what goes with what. We all have different ears and needs. But I have had customers who purchased Denon receivers with Lsi speakers and felt it was missing something. Again different strokes.

Nad tends to be on the brighter side and is the reason why your digging your song. Good for you bro. I'm also a musician and tend to look for a more natural sounding system.

Dan

Face

Is it possible these were in the wrong position on the back of your amp?

wout

Thanks Face, we went over that and it was set in bypass.
I think Mantis has a point. When I get ready to redo it will go with pre pro by Outlaw or B&K and I won't mix pre pro and amp mfg. Nice thing is Outlaw is working a new pre pro that should be out by the time I have my act together again.

And yes if you work hard enough your dreams are possible. I already did it once and I am about to do it again.

Bill Ayotte

That little NAD is a underestimated powerhouse, I love mine, and in fact just bought the C372....Just a thought man, when you look to go back into HT, why not look at a NAD receiver or separates? If you like the sound the little NAD, you will like the sound of the big NAD, believe me.....

wout

I just the NAD line and there is some impressive looking reviews out there. Could be a good choice based on my experience with NAD so far.

Bill Ayotte

Hahahahaha holy ****, check out the newest Receiver...

http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers

Bill Ayotte

Or, you could just go Master's series....

http://nadelectronics.com/products/home-theatre-amplifiers/M15-Surround-Sound-Preamplifier/images

mantis

Bill Ayotte wrote: »

Hahahahaha holy ****, check out the newest Receiver...

http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers

It's badass on paper but it's missing processing for its 1.3 Hdmi. Why have 1.3 Hdmi and no processing?? I'm going crazy over all this HDMI madness.

But I know why they didn't, they made it a card frame so you can pay more for the Processor board. I guess the ability to upgrade is cool but why have o upgade something thats brand new and not up to todays spec's? Which was just released on the market???

That just pisses me off.:mad: