hookup not producing amplification Denon 3808/Cinenova

mwaarna

This is a bit un-ethical... but what ever..

one thing you could try is...

Go to a big box store.. with lenient return policies.. (circuit city, best buy, tweeter, etc....)

Purchase a decent AVR or Pre-amp(which you can return within 30 days)

Dont purchase another Denon...

hook it up to your amp and see if there is a difference.. in comparison to your Denon...

I believe Crutchfield allows free returns if you want to have a loaner from them...

wout

Luckily I don't have to do that. My NAD has pre-outs I just discovered and I will be putting that on the Cinenova to see.

Sherardp

You can PM Grimster, he has the same Denon paired with the Outlaw 7700 power amp and gave an excellent review on the pair together. He maybe able to give you some pointers if all else fails. Hope you get it worked out. Im using a AVR as a pre/pro with a D-Sonic on my fronts and noticed a huge improvement, not really in loudness, though the change was subtle but mainly in detail. Give a listen to both, you should notice improvement over the AVRs amp section.

wout

Yippie!!!

I hooked up my old NAD 3208EE (a nice little stereo receiver with preouts) in the place of the Denon and I had to quickly turn down the volume to barely open because there was unbelieveable sound coming from the speakers. Clarity beyond belief, it is giving me goosebumps. This is what you are all writing about!

So the Denon has something going on with it. I believe that the Denon is a good machine but it is too complicated IMO.

I am happy as all now. But I need to figure out what to do, I am tempted to simplify and just run the stereo and get rid of the surrounds. In that case do I still add a subwoofer for the movies?

WilliamM2

Apparently the Denon's pre-amp outputs are too low to power the amp. You could always get a real pre-pro. Too late to return the Denon?

tcrossma

Given that the sound is the same when powered by the Denon as when using the Cinenova i'd say there might just be something wrong with the Denon. I don't think this is a matter of synergy between components/speakers because the difference shouldn't be that night and day.

Return the Denon or send it in for repair. Those speakers should still sound very good when hooked up to that AVR and if they don't there's something wrong with it.

Stick with the surround, it's nice to have in my opinion. They aren't that difficult to setup/use and if you weren't having this problem you probably would have been setup and happy in less than an hour.

Good luck.

m00npie

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Apparently the Denon's pre-amp outputs are too low to power the amp. You could always get a real pre-pro. Too late to return the Denon?

Wow, a 2K receiver is not a real Pre? Care to enlighten us on what a real HT Pre is?

wout

I have been listening some more now that everyone is awake in the household and I am totally amazed.

What really blows me away is the timbre of the instruments and voices, the separation of the instruments and the soundstage is HUGE it goes from far left to far right well beyond the speakers and it is almost 90 degrees to my right and left. Mind you this is just stereo, the surrounds are not hooked up.

WOW!

tonyb

Glad to hear it,I bet you thought you were a friggin moron at some point.Happens to us all.Something is up with that Denon,send it back,sell it do whatever.The Nad probably sounds better anyway.Plenty of pre/pro's out there to wet your whistle on.

A receiver is not the same as a dedicated processor,you know that!!

Gaara

m00npie wrote: »

Wow, a 2K receiver is not a real Pre? Care to enlighten us on what a real HT Pre is?

The denon is a receiver, not a pre. A real pre would come from a brand like B&K, Rotel, Cary, Integra Research, Anthem, Krell, etc. I have never personally heard a receiver sound as good as a real pre, especially when it comes to 2ch.

wout

The Denon is an AVR, a real pre is one without an amp. It gets even better when they have XLR outputs to match up with the cinenova's XLR inputs. I vote for simpler machines with less bells and whistles and just simply putting the sounds through as intended.

There is a Denon 3808CI for sale barely used, right here.

jakelm

There is nothing wrong with the Denon, my HK is exactly the same (maybe alittle better..hehe), but the pre outs oin my HK are low output. Had the same comparison when hooked to my Hafler amp. The calibration actually had to set the Hafler amp higher than if I were running my mains off of my HK. Granted my HK bench tested higher output than my Hafler. Listening at normal to higher levels there is very little difference between the Hafler and the HK. As a matter of fact I believe the HK has alittle higher current then the Hafler. So I put the Hafler on zone 2 duty.

Bigger external amps really shine when:
1. They are "alot" better than the reciever that its replacing.
2. The dB's are pushed to above normal levels.
3. Refer to #1

Lets me put it this way. If your listening levels only requires 10-20 watts of power. And you compare 2 very well built amps , not much difference will be heard. But if your listening levels are much higher, then out of the 2 well built amps, the one with the higher output will , in most cases, shine.

If you own a Focus and a Corvette. Both do 0-60 in 4 seconds. And thats only as fast as you go. It makes little difference which car you drive (stick with me here, I know there is a big difference between the 2 cars). But if your driving habbits should ever increase to 80-90mph. The the Corvette would shine through.

I always recommend buying and amp if:

1. You feel your current amp sounds terrible
2. Want to push your current amp beyond its limits.

If your well within tollerence of your AVR, and you find it sounds just fine. Then there is no need to spend money on amps.

jakelm

Dont just buy an external amp, just because you want to only turn the volume nob to -30 rather than -15.

wout

Well I cannot agree with the last two comments based on my experience described in this thread. The Denon and Cine combi produced no emotional response while listening to music or a DVD while the NAD Cine combo is not even in the same universe as far as sound experience goes. So no, none of those comments ring true with me. It is posibble of course that there is way more to it than I understand at the moment but my ears (and my soul) tell me unequivocally (in an absolute way) that this Denon is not doing what it is supposed to. If you were here in the room with me you would agree. I wish I could transport some of you over here, we'd have a good time messing around with this. I have some cold ones in the fridge, who is beaming over?

wout

BTW the Denon is not meant to drive 4 ohm speakers. Just like your Focus won't do 120 MPH.

wout

OK Jake let's hook up the NAD to the speakers directly and see.

jakelm

wout wrote: »

BTW the Denon is not meant to drive 4 ohm speakers. Just like your Focus won't do 120 MPH.

Thats exactly my point. The amp is obviously alot better than the Denon. But thats because your asking the Denon to do alot more than it was built to do.

jakelm

There is nothing wrong with the Denon, for what its built for , it does an excellent job.

Refer to reason #2 I gave. Your pushing the Denon beyond its limits. I aggree with what your saying, I'm not arguing here. I believe when you say yor other reciever does a better job.

Grimster74

I can honestly say that with my volume set at -30, my room is a comfortable listening enviroment, at -20 or -15, it's almost unbearable. I'm running the RTi series which are 8 ohm speakers so not quite as hard to drive as the LSi's but I couldn't be happier with the 3808CI/7700 combo.

m00npie

Cast, reel... hook. I know the difference and I'm not talking about 2-channel. I'm sure there are differences between a 5k Anthem Statement and $1500 receiver and would love to hear them. I have not found differences between Real Pre's such as Outlaw or Rotel in the same price range as 2K or less Receivers. In fact, I found them to be lacking in technology with all this HDMI crap. Just to qualify that statement, I have not heard everything out there and it is only my opinion based on what I have compared.

Denon is not the ‘be all end all’ by any means. In fact, mine sounded like shiite out of the box and as stated before, took about 3 months to get it just right for HT. It’s just above crap for 2-channel now that I have a dedicated 2-channel. I guess the sensitivity comes when the same old complaint comes up… It’s too complicated, the manual sucks or I want something simpler. Simple is HT in the box.

wout

Ahem, I am taking back my previous comment. The NAD performs wonderfully on the LSi fronts. It is however rated for 4ohms. As interesting as this is, I am also confused at this point. Some of you know something that I don't and I am going to have to re-read all the comments in this post to figure it out.

wout

OK, so. A Denon does better with 8 ohm speakers. But if you put an amp behind the Denon to drive 4ohm speakers the amp does not bring up the signal from the AVR to the power required to drive 4 ohm speakers? I thought that was the point. I obviously missed that one.

wout

Grimster I think that the difference is in the 4 ohm vs 8 ohm speakers. It may be crititcal to combine pre-pro-amp (PPA)/ AVR with the correct ohm rating for the speakers. The reason I chose the Denon is because I had heard it in a store with B&W 8ohm speakers and it sounded great.

Don't mix your ohms.

jakelm

wout wrote: »

OK, so. A Denon does better with 8 ohm speakers. But if you put an amp behind the Denon to drive 4ohm speakers the amp does not bring up the signal from the AVR to the power required to drive 4 ohm speakers? I thought that was the point. I obviously missed that one.

The amp will drive the speakers with much more ease. Like 2 trucks that can do 60mph. One trruck gets 10mpg, the other gets 20mpg. The amp is working alot less to drive a 4ohm load, compared to the reciever.

The signal remains the same, becuase the denon is sending it to the amp, wether the amp is internal or external. The 2 amps sinsetivity are too close to make a difference in dB's.

wout

Jake,

You are spot on with your comments. There is no need for an amp if the sounds level is where you want it. My NAD is totally rocking. The problem is mixing ohm ratings between AVR and speakers. That does not work.

Thanks for your insight.

Wouter

wout

Aha! I got it.

But I'd still rather be driving the corvette

tonyb

Thats what the amp is for dude.A receiver's amp section is normally not big enough to drive 4 ohm speaks.Thats why you need the seperate amp.Get it now? Have fun with your new toy,and try and stay friends with the neighbors.

Dennis Gardner

Unless you use a SPL meter to compare actual loudness levels, your current assessment of the two receivers is still biased. I'm sure the NAD sounds better due to a hotter preamp voltage, and possibly a faster rampup on volume sloping.

The Denon might actually be capable of the same levels as the NAD, just at a different point on the dial.

At least you didn't sh*tcan the amp only to find out that the quality of input matters.

wout

Tony, I that is exactly what I used to think. Now I don't think that anymore. The amp does little for the sound quality, the AVR and speaker ohm rating is the deciding factor. If the AVR is rated 4 ohms and your speakers are 4 ohms then it works. If your AVR is rated 8 ohms and your speakers are 8ohms then it works. If your speakers are rated 4 ohms and your AVR is rated 8 ohms you are in trouble. An amp will not fix that. You need to match your ohms.

Oddly enough, because it seems logical that an amplifier would amplify the signal from the AVR to the level the speakers require. But it did not work for me in the combination of equipment discussed above.

The Denon (8ohm) and the LSi speakers (4ohm) did not sound good together. The NAD (4ohm) and the LSi sound great and that is that. There is no argueing about it. It's night and day!

jakelm

Thats why when I compared my Hafler to my HK, using 6ohm speakers. Both handle the ohms very well, but the sinsetivity on the HK amps were a tad higher, so I didnt have to raise the volume as high. As for sound quality, not much difference there.