hookup not producing amplification Denon 3808/Cinenova

wout

Sorry Dennis, that is not the case. Not even close actually. I can only open the dial on the NAD (no dB indicator) to half before it is uncomfortably loud. I can open the Denon to -1dB and it is just fine to stand right next to it.

wout

Jake, it could well be that the sound quality of the Denon is as good as the NAD, but the listening experience left a lot to be desired so it was not something that was working.

m00npie

wout wrote: »

Jake, it could well be that the sound quality of the Denon is as good as the NAD, but the listening experience left a lot to be desired so it was not something that was working.

I think it has been established that something is wrong with the Denon. Perhaps you should get it replaced before starting to compare which product is better.

wout

I did not intend to compare which product is better. I think this thread is about the match between 4ohm and 8 ohm parts of a system and trying to find a solution to the issue I was faced with. Just to make sure this is clear to readers of this post. If I had 8 ohms speakers I would hook them up to the Denon and I would not be surprised to get excellent results.

jakelm

m00npie wrote: »

I think it has been established that something is wrong with the Denon. Perhaps you should get it replaced before starting to compare which product is better.

Or it could be that the NAD is just better.


What setting do you have the Denon on? Direct 2 channel? Try this, hook the source to the Denon by means of Direct 6/8 channel analog input. Bypassing all bassmanagement

jakelm

wout wrote: »

I did not intend to compare which product is better. I think this thread is about the match between 4ohm and 8 ohm parts of a system and trying to find a solution to the issue I was faced with. Just to make sure this is clear to readers of this post. If I had 8 ohms speakers I would hook them up to the Denon and I would not be surprised to get excellent results.

Well that right there is the problem (might be the only, but is the biggest problem), 4ohm on Denon compared to 4 ohm on ext. amp.

cfrizz

This was precisely my experience when I had my Parasound 1500 driving my RTA-8T's. However, it is the exact opposite & comparable to Wout experience now that the Parasound is driving my brother's LSI7's.

There is NOTHING wrong with the Denon, but when used as a preamp will require you to turn up the volume alot more for 4ohms speakers than what you are used to using when driving 8ohms speakers.

At any rate, I'm glad you got it figured out Wout. At this point since you are unhappy with having to turn up the volume on the Denon, you should just sell it & start shopping Audiogon for a prepro.

Or if you want new the Outlaw 990 has been marked to to clear them out to make way for a new one coming sometime this year. That is if you have room in your rack for it!

Grimster74 wrote: »

I can honestly say that with my volume set at -30, my room is a comfortable listening enviroment, at -20 or -15, it's almost unbearable. I'm running the RTi series which are 8 ohm speakers so not quite as hard to drive as the LSi's but I couldn't be happier with the 3808CI/7700 combo.

tonyb

I think you are missing the point,wout.It's not just about ohms.It's about power supply and a receiver rated at 4 0hm with a 4 ohm speaker doesnt mean your ok.Quality of the watts,not quantity.Plenty of threads here for you to get your read on without me rehashing everything.

Grimster74

Okay, I'm confused here, is wout trying to drive the LSi speakers with just the Denon itself or is wout using the Cinenova to drive the speakers. Seems like everyone is telling him the Denon does not have the ability to drive the LSi's when in will power the LSi's. Will it power them to reference level, hell no, the unit will shut down before this happens due to overheating. As far as having to cut the volume up 15 more clicks to get roughly the same output as he would if he was driving 8ohm speakers, thats understandable. When I was running my Outlaw 990/7700 combo, -25 was plenty load enough and now to get the same volume out of the 3808/7700 combo I'm somewhere around -20 to -15. I'm pretty sure it has something to due with the preout voltage difference between the two units or whatever it's called. Either way, if your happy with the NAD wout, then you've answered your own question, it's whatever sounds best. As for me, as soon as Outlaw releases their new PRE/PRO, I'll be first in line to place my order. Without a doubt, dedicated seperates is the way to go but the problem is, the technology hasn't caught up with the demand (atleast under $2500) until recently. Yes I know the Integra and Onkyo can be had for less but here where I live, good luck finding one.

jakelm

Grim. Wout was commenting that after listening to his LSi's hooked to the Denon, he hooked them to his ext amp and was surprized that the output was the same. he then changed out his pre and noticed a huge difference. We were explaining to him that a source makes a big difference. And that the output from his other pre was igher, thus made the amp seem louder and fuller than the Denon...


I think I got this right....

Grimster74

Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Face

cfrizz wrote: »

There is NOTHING wrong with the Denon, it just isn't meant to drive 4ohm speakers by itself, (Which is what we always tell everyone anyway) & will require you to turn up the volume alot more than what you are used to using when driving 8ohm speakers.

Yes there is, it should function well as a pre-amp, but in this case it isn't.

jakelm

Face wrote: »

Yes there is, it should function well as a pre-amp, but in this case it isn't.

It all depends on how well you think well is. It could be doing it well, but the NAD is doing it better.

Bamadude

Does anyone know of a way to measure preamp signal levels without getting into lab type equipment? Would be nice for comparison between different manufactures such as this case.

GSRBOB

If the Denon is being used for a pre i thought that would eliminate the 4 ohm 8 ohm compatibility between the speakers and the Denon because the amp would have the responsibility of the load. I would think that the amp would need to match with the speakers and not the AVR.

jakelm

GSRBOB wrote: »

If the Denon is being used for a pre i thought that would eliminate the 4 ohm 8 ohm compatibility between the speakers and the Denon because the amp would have the responsibility of the load. I would think that the amp would need to match with the speakers and not the AVR.

Absolutly correct. But I think the issue now is not so much the amp as is the pre amp signal output.

jakelm

Bamadude wrote: »

Does anyone know of a way to measure preamp signal levels without getting into lab type equipment? Would be nice for comparison between different manufactures such as this case.

Would be very hard because the signal increases at different points of the volume control. But I would guess a multi meter could read the voltage at a certain position of the volume control.

Put the volume at 1/4. Take a voltage reading. Put the Denon at what you think is 1/4, take a reading.

I have never done this, so I dont know if this would work.

Face

jakelm wrote: »

Absolutly correct. But I think the issue now is not so much the amp as is the pre amp signal output.

Correct. People should read the whole thread before responding.

GSRBOB

You need a multimeter to measure pre-amp voltage. Also a test cd with different sinewaves 20-20k hz. On the old rockford amps for car audio i would use this to match the left and right gains.

WilliamM2

m00npie wrote: »

Wow, a 2K receiver is not a real Pre? Care to enlighten us on what a real HT Pre is?

The Denon is a reciever. By real pre-pro, I just meant a pre-pro, like the new Onkyo PR-SC885, Integra 9.8, or NAD T175 (not that I would ever buy NAD again). And list on the Denon is $1599.

cfrizz

Read Grim's statement above. It is normal for the Denon to need a higher volume, most likely due to preout voltage difference.

Which I never knew about, and only found out when I saw the higher volume level on the Denon when listening to my brother's LSI's being driven by a Parasound. But it still sounded terrific.

Most of us don't worry about it & just turn it up until it sounds good. Nothing is being damaged since the amp is handling the power.

Face wrote: »

Yes there is, it should function well as a pre-amp, but in this case it isn't.

tcrossma

It still sounds to me as if there's a problem with the Denon. When used as a pre the ohm's don't matter (which seems to have been established). The voltage on the pre-outs might matter some, but pretty much everyone else that uses an AVR as a pre doesn't have an issue. I myself turn my Yammy up to -33 for normal listening and -15 for deaf.

To me, since the "quality" of the sound sucks equally when he's using the AVR as a pre or direct to the speakers indicates that there's a problem with the sound processing of the Denon. It should sound damn good with that AVR=>Amp=>Speaker combination. Sure the NAD might sound better; better soundstage, quieter noise floor, or any number of things that a good brand will do for you. But it should still sound damn good with the Denon and it doesn't.

Just my 2 cents.

Face

cfrizz wrote: »

Read Grim's statement above. It is normal for the Denon to need a higher volume, most likely due to preout voltage difference.

Which I never knew about, and only found out when I saw the higher volume level on the Denon when listening to my brother's LSI's being driven by a Parasound. But it still sounded terrific.

Most of us don't worry about it & just turn it up until it sounds good. Nothing is being damaged since the amp is handling the power.

Yes, some preamps output less voltage than others. One of my amps has a switch to compensate for this. But the voltage shouldn't be so low that even at full volume his new amp isn't any louder than a AVR.

jakelm

Face wrote: »

Yes, some preamps output less voltage than others. One of my amps has a switch to compensate for this. But the voltage shouldn't be so low that even at full volume his new amp isn't any louder than a AVR.

It is very possible that the new amp wont be any "louder" than the Denon.

jakelm

tcrossma wrote: »

It still sounds to me as if there's a problem with the Denon. When used as a pre the ohm's don't matter (which seems to have been established). The voltage on the pre-outs might matter some, but pretty much everyone else that uses an AVR as a pre doesn't have an issue. I myself turn my Yammy up to -33 for normal listening and -15 for deaf.

Just my 2 cents.

Just because the amp is not louder, doesnt mean there is something wrong.

Yall seem to think that just because your adding wattage things will automaticly be louder. There is more going on than the amount of wattage of the amp. The NAD pre has more gain coming out of its pre outs than the Denon. That does not make the Denon broken.

Tcrossma, what speakers are you using? Whats the efficiency, the ohms? All this has a play on how loud things will be, when going from a AVR pre to amp.

seeclear

wout wrote: »

I wish I could transport some of you over here, we'd have a good time messing around with this. I have some cold ones in the fridge, who is beaming over?

Where in Colorado are you?
:D:D:D

ben62670

Bamadude wrote: »

Does anyone know of a way to measure preamp signal levels without getting into lab type equipment? Would be nice for comparison between different manufactures such as this case.

Read the specs on the line outs.
I have to do this because my Adcom's require quit a bit of voltage to get rated power. I have to turn my volume knob on my Outlaw 990 almost all the way up +6db to get near max power.

jakelm

ben62670 wrote: »

Read the specs on the line outs.
I have to do this because my Adcom's require quit a bit of voltage to get rated power. I have to turn my volume knob on my Outlaw 990 almost all the way up +6db to get near max power.

I wish I had those specs for my HK. It would be nice to compare.

ben62670

jakelm wrote: »

I wish I had those specs for my HK. It would be nice to compare.

I used my HK AVR-235 as a Pre, and it put out nearly the same voltage. My 990 has a rated Pre out of only 1 volt, but a max of 9v. I would guess the HK is about 1 to 1.2v out clean. I want to build a tube buffer/active XO to drive my Adcom's with sufficient voltage.

jakelm

GSRBOB wrote: »

You need a multimeter to measure pre-amp voltage. Also a test cd with different sinewaves 20-20k hz. On the old rockford amps for car audio i would use this to match the left and right gains.

Could you go into alittle more detail on the process. I have used a multimeter with the test tones, but always got very funny voltage readings.