hookup not producing amplification Denon 3808/Cinenova

wout

Hello all,

Please see my sig for the setup.

I am starting a new system where that was nothing before. So it is all getting hooked up from scratch. I hooked up the speaker wires to speakers. I hooked up the AVR to the screen via HDMI and the DVD player to the AVR via HDMI. Then I hooked up the speaker wires to the AVR (instead of the amp) to see how it would sound without the amp. It sounded feeble at -30dB. I knew it would not be great due to the 4ohm LSi speakers. Still it was less than I thought. So then I hooked up the speaker wires to the cinenova and used stereo audio cable to hookup the amp to the pre-outs. (It seems like I did it right but I am not sure) Then I powered up again and the sound was the same, no change at all. Now I know the cinenova will sound strong at -30dB so something is amiss.

Can anyone please offer suggestions? As it is the weekend I wil have to wait on getting support from earthquake (cinenova) or Denon. Thanks in advance.

WilliamM2

Have you tried turning it up? How's the output at -10? The volume control on most new recievers is not linear.

wout

I did have it up at -6 dB and at that point I should be almost going deaf, but that is not at all the case.

cfrizz

My brother has the LSI 7's & the Denon 3803 & Parasound 1500A amp. I made the mistake of thinking that at -30 it would be blasting us to kingdom come. After all it was blasting when I had my amp hooked up to my 3802 & RTA 8T's However, I was wrong.

What you are finding out is just how hard it is to push 4ohm speakers. Mark's normal volume is around -15.

So don't pay too much attention to what the number is for volume on the Denon. Just turn it up until it sounds good!

John K.

Wout, the advice that you got in some of the previous replies is correct: set the volume control at whatever level gives you a comfortably loud listening level, and don't worry what the number on the volume control happens to be when you reach that level(unless you turn it nearly all the way up and still aren't there).

The reason for your puzzlement is that what you said that you "know", simply isn't correct, since amplifiers don't work that way. The number needed on the volume control for a certain loudness level from your speakers isn't necessarily going to be less when you hook up a separate amplifier which has a higher maximum power capability. The amplifier in your Denon and your Cinenova each have a certain amount of gain that they apply to the incoming voltage. It's entirely possible that the Denon has about the same or even a little higher gain than the Cinenova; if so, the Denon would have the same power output or even higher output than the Cinenova at the same volume setting(-30 or whatever). The difference would be that the Cinenova would still have clean power output good for about 3 more dB of maximum loudness(e.g. 108dB rather than 105dB)by turning up the volume control higher than when using the internal Denon amp. This difference may or may not be significant for your particular use.

What you've described is probably normal operation, so relax and enjoy the music with your excellent new setup.

reeltrouble1

wout you are absolutely correct in thinking the avr will struggle a bit with your speaker system, but something else seems amiss, the avr should work pretty good. Are you sure you have the speaker wires hooked properly? Are all the connections good?

Do you have a tuner in your avr? If so does it play louder at the same level?

I would simplify as much as possible and just start with the AVR and tuner and see if you can get that to play, then add other pieces in one at a time.

RT1

engtaz

Have you tried setting up the Denon's levels with a SPL meter?? You may not have the setup set to your optimal conditions. Go thru the cal procedure for your Denon. You can raise the gain levels to balance your system more.

Good Luck and enjoy,
engtaz

mantis

1st off the sound quality is going to be dictated by the Denon. The preamp makes a much bigger noticable tonal difference then the amp will. It's much harder to hear a difference in amps then it is in the preamp. There is still a difference just harder to hear.

Where your system will shine is at higher volumes. Your dynamic range will increase greatly with an outboard amp then what it will be with the Denons amps due to the 4 ohm load.

Honestly I don't perfer the tonal qualities of Denons with LSi as a preamp. I feel it's warm and warm. You need a little sparkle in the mix to get excited with the Lsi's.

Dan

Serendipity

I agree with what others have said. This may be normal especially when using 4 ohm speakers. However, I think something could be amiss as -6db should be uncomfortably loud with most receivers.

I would start by checking all connections. Sometimes an interconnect or speaker wire comes loose.

wout

Thanks for all the suggestions. I agree that the somewhat muted sound produced by the Denon is normal. That is the case due to the 4ohm, OK there. However, there is absolutely zero difference when I hook up the Cinenova with its 300wpc at 8 ohm (600 at 4ohm). That would probably indicate a problem. I agree with Dan that the Denon colors the sound. Whether I like it for my taste I do not know yet. The problem I encounter (because I have not yet fully figured out the Denon) is that their preset audio room qualities produce a high amount of reverb, a tad much for me. If I use their Direct mode, no coloring at all I end up with stereo only and not 5.1. That will be something to work on. I will be in touch with Earthquake tomorrow in the pm. See what they say. (I already got an email back (on Saturday no less) asking me to call them to handle it over the phone.

One thing I can let all of you know is that even with the Denon is that the sound from the LSi speakers is very very clear. Cool! I have not yet had time to set up the calibration so there is definitely room for improvement. I'd like to get the Cinenova running first, just in case that make a difference and I rather do it once.

Thanks all - I'll advise what was the matter.

wout

BTW Dan I bought the Denon as a tide me over until the makers of the RLX output pre-pro makers like Outlaw, B&K, Sunfire, etc. get on board with HDMI 1.3 and the sound codecs. Until then its the Denon. I got an email from Ed Mullen from SVS and formerly a reviewer for high end audio magazines saying the Denon will be all I'd need/want. He would know, he has probably seen more than most of what is out there. Then again, some things are subjective and personal.

Dennis Gardner

The reason that the Denon and Cinenova have exactly the same volume is simple. The input sensitivity of both amps is the same. You won't notice a difference until you run the new amp into power putputs that the Denon's internal amps aren't capable of.

A preamp's output voltage and amp's input sensitivity mismatch can fool alot of people into believing they are hearing something miraculous when they are simply hearing a hotter signal. (Louder is better...........)

If you want your new combo to sound really loud at -30dB, you need Klipsch, not Polk LSis. Just my .02.

wout

Per Earthquake there is the possibility that there is a volume limiter on the Denon that needs to be deselected. I am going to run the audessey and find out.

tonyb

If there is one,do you know why it's there?
Dennis makes a good point,you most likely won't hear a big difference untill you up the volume a bit,say -17 would be a start.Make sure everything is set-up,speaker distance,levels,crossover,etc.

wout

I appreciate the suggestions on volume but you are not here and it is hard for me to explain that there is absolutely ZERO difference between having teh Cinenova (frigging 600 wpc at 4 ohm) and the Denon 140 wpc at 8ohm. Now sorry but that ain't right! Besides I have had it up to -6dB and at that point with 600 wpc I should be blowing out the LSi15 speakers or my ears. That is not the object but it is a clear indication that there is something wrong.

So there is a problem. Another prblem is the crappy manual that Denon puts out. The writer should be shot on the spot. There is not a single place where they show how to do something, the only thing they do is say what needs to be done, well if you do not know which buttons to push how are you going to do it? Duh Denon, you get an F for the manual.

I think you might be aware at this point that the aggravation is getting to me.

I did check the volume limiter and it is set to OFF so that was not it.

At the end of the Audyssey process the Denon got hung up in the check menu and would not let me get to the store menu to store the settings. WTF.

Got to do that again too.

danger boy

wout wrote: »

So there is a problem. Another prblem is the crappy manual that Denon puts out. The writer should be shot on the spot. There is not a single place where they show how to do something, the only thing they do is say what needs to be done, well if you do not know which buttons to push how are you going to do it? Duh Denon, you get an F for the manual.

the manuals are printed in Japan where the gear is made.. and often times the English is pretty bad.. at least they could get someone who knows the English language well enough to print the manuals. bad enough that the gear is made there. but the manuals too????

Marantz manuals are just as bad. I think my receiver manual was all of 7 or 8 pages at best. Some of these receivers are hella complex.. how can they not provide a more user friendly manual?

wout

I am going to bed and try again tomorrow.

Dennis Gardner

You simply don't understand amp sensitivity and input voltages and think that you should hear a difference at normal levels, which isn't always true. There is nothing wrong. 600 watts can't be produced until the preamp voltage gets high enough. The amp only amplifies the input.

Cover up the display and rock out regardless of what the display is saying. You've got the wattage to spare, you just aren't reaching into it at the lesser volume levels.

Oh yeah, even at full volume, the new amp will only be around 3 dB louder than the Denon. Its simply the physics of science............

Face

What interconnects are you using?

Gaara

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

The reason that the Denon and Cinenova have exactly the same volume is simple. The input sensitivity of both amps is the same. You won't notice a difference until you run the new amp into power putputs that the Denon's internal amps aren't capable of.

A preamp's output voltage and amp's input sensitivity mismatch can fool alot of people into believing they are hearing something miraculous when they are simply hearing a hotter signal. (Louder is better...........)

If you want your new combo to sound really loud at -30dB, you need Klipsch, not Polk LSis. Just my .02.

OP please reread this. I have a Cinenova and also have a 30 watt Monarchy amp which actually sounds louder at the same setting then the 300wpc Cinenova. The reason is the Monarchy has half the input sensitivity.

As was already stated twice it its simply the input sensitivity of both is very close if not the same. The only way you are going to get it to get louder at -30db would be to up the standard volume for the input on your denon, get a amp with lower input sensitivity, or get more sensitive speakers.

ben62670

On the back of your amp is there a level control, or gain? I looked on the web site, and didn't see a manual.
Ben

tonyb

If he cranked it to -6 with nothing,then he must have it hooked up wrong.Possibly the wrong SET OF PRE-OUTS??.

ben62670

One thing I am thinking is if the Denon is set for 4ohms the volume may be attenuated to compensate for currant limiting. Just a thought. I have never owned a Denon with pre outs.
Ben

cfrizz

Denon's don't have a setting for 4ohms. Nor do they suggest using 4ohm speakers. Double check, to make sure it is wired correctly in the correct spots.

But I still think it is simply the LSI load. The volume knob has to be turned up higher than what you think it should be to sound good. So long as the amp itself isn't burning up, don't worry about it.

danger boy

an external amp from a receiver's pre outs may not add volume exactly.. what it adds is more current for your speakers.. and that usually equates to better highs, mids, lows, clarity, soundstage.... etc. not necessarily more volume. i had to crank my Marantz to the same level whether I was using it's amps or external amps. of course the external amps sounded quite a bit better.

jakelm

This thread is a:

Perfect example of why wattage means nothing......

GSRBOB

I would be upset to. I really hope for your sake it has a gain in the back so you can adjust sensitiviy.

m00npie

tonyb wrote: »

If he cranked it to -6 with nothing,then he must have it hooked up wrong.Possibly the wrong SET OF PRE-OUTS??.

I agree! I have the Denon 4306 as the pre and the Cinenova driving my LSi15's and at -6, it's very hard to even be in the room. At a range of 0 to +5DB, it's like being at an AC/DC concert at the local pub. Not nearly as distorted though

I first ran my speakers with the Denon only and then brought in the Earthquake. Volume differences were minimal until you started cranking the volume and the Denon ran out steam quickly. Sound differences, on the other hand, were significant especially with the RTi series.

I think you need to spend a little more time on a dedicated 3808 thread at AVS instead of reading the manual. It took me a good 3 months of tweaking to get my Denon just right. Unless you have an absolutely quiet room (no refrigerators running, oil burners, AC units or ticking clocks) don’t bother running the Audissey setup. I think Grimster74 has a Denon 3808, maybe he could be of some help to you as my setup on an older model may not fully apply.

tonyb

Maybe stupid,but,I hope he...um...plugged in the amp....he..he:)

wout

I am starting to understand that my expectations and possibly the hpye of the wattage have misled me to believing that there would be a monster difference with the Cinenova. Since this is not the case I will need to swap the speaker wires back to the Denon play that for a while get a good impression and swap it back to see how much difference I hear.

To answer some questions: No there is no gain on the back.
At -10 dB it sounds like my tiny NAD with the bookshelf 2 way PSB speakers, good but not $5000 worth. (I may need a new set of ears maybe?) Probably since I cannot detect the signifcant difference everyone else describes when they play their Cinenova. It is not blowing me away and I did run the Audysey and I did follow all the tips in the ausysey write ups. My room is a dead quiet basement in a small town.

The connections: HDMI from DHDVD Tosh A35 to AVR, HDMI to display, RCA audio cables from pre-outs (verified five times hooked up correctly) to RCA inputs on Cinenova, speaker wires (THX certified and pretty fat cables) from Cinenova to speakers (red to red black to black and to correct speakers, verified over and over again).

Denon guy was very patient and we spent 30 min on phone and we reset the Denon to factory specs and set up the whole thing to make it work. It working now just not to the extent that I expected based on auditions of other equipment (Denon with 600 series B&W) at audio stores, which are five hours away for me, so don't go there often.

My wife says "sell the whole thing this is ridiculous." I am not there yet, but keep your ears tuned there might be a sale...

wout

Yeah Tony that made me laugh. Dumber things have happened, but yes the light is on. (nobody is home)